FLDS Raid

[Zipp0 1]

So, one girl calls and says she was abused, and that justifies taking 400 other children into state custody? And now they can't even find that original caller? (fishy) On top of that they refuse to honor the sanctity of the temple? (try that with a mosque)

I am not for polygamy or child abuse, but I think the law may have gone a bit too far in this case. It worries me that we think we have rights, UNLESS you are part of a sect on the fringe of society, in which case you have no rights, evidently.

There must have been a better way to do this.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I am tired of hearing about the sanctity of various religious houses. I don't care whether it is a church, temple, mosque, gurdwara or sweat lodge. The laws of the land trump.
Personally I don't see a problem with polygamy, but what we are talking about here is child abuse. The state has a long history of erring on the side of protection for possible victims in such cases. Are there cases of these errors creating innocent victims? Yep, but there are more cases of inaction having worse consequences.

[lawrocket 3]

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The state has a long history of erring on the side of protection for possible victims in such cases

From my experience in the law, I'd hope that you never face such an allegation or having the state err on the side of protecting a possible victim.

That IS the sort of thing to wish on your worst enemy.

Should the FLDS be left alone? No.
Should the state go draconian on them? No.

It's why when I hear that some guy has a Family Law Temporary Restraining Order on him I also wonder if he's been pulled over before, too. TRO's are disgustingly easy to get. That's why Letterman had one issued against him by a nutjob in New Mexico. It showed just how very easy it is to get a TRO against you.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Zipp0 1]

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I am tired of hearing about the sanctity of various religious houses. I don't care whether it is a church, temple, mosque, gurdwara or sweat lodge. The laws of the land trump.
Personally I don't see a problem with polygamy, but what we are talking about here is child abuse. The state has a long history of erring on the side of protection for possible victims in such cases. Are there cases of these errors creating innocent victims? Yep, but there are more cases of inaction having worse consequences.

So, I guess we should arrest every Catholic priest and take every kid who ever had contact with a priest into custody.

That is the equivalent.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[lawrocket 3]

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I guess we should arrest every Catholic priest and take every kid who ever had contact with a priest into custody.

Or schoolteacher.

A flexible response is appropriate here.

I'll put it this way - anybody have any idea how often a kid lies about abuse to get back at a parent or someone else? It's certainly not uncommon. And that parent goes forever with a stigma of abuser.

It's a fine line that should be drawn, but these people are already convicts in the court of public opinion.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydyvr 0]

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Are there cases of these errors creating innocent victims? Yep, but there are more cases of inaction having worse consequences.

Would love to see that statement supported with evidence.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Shotgun 1]

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So, one girl calls and says she was abused, and that justifies taking 400 other children into state custody?

No, but it justified an investigation. And apparently other evidence found during the investigation justified taking the children into custody.

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I am not for polygamy . . .

I see nothing wrong with polygamy, if it involves only consenting adults.

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It worries me that we think we have rights, UNLESS you are part of a sect on the fringe of society, in which case you have no rights, evidently.

These grown men don't have the right to be having sex with underage girls, no matter what their religious beliefs are.

[nerdgirl 0]

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So, one girl calls and says she was abused, and that justifies taking 400 other children into state custody? And now they can't even find that original caller? (fishy)

Why?

And why "fishy"?

Context:
-- The leader & founder of the compound was recently convicted and is serving two consecutive sentences of five years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old. Addditional charges are pending on four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor in Arizona.

-- The 50-yo "husband" of the missing 16-yo (her identity is known; her whereabouts are unknown and she gave birth to a child at age 15) was "sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation."

-- Reportedly an unspecificied number of the minor females at the West Texas compound are pregnant.

-- The officers obtained search warrants (multiple) and even initially delayed execution of the search warrants at the request of those in the compound (to put it diplomatically). One could speculate that delay may be associated with the disappearance (was she kidnapped?) of the minor who alerted the authorities.

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I am not for polygamy or child abuse, but I think the law may have gone a bit too far in this case. It worries me that we think we have rights, UNLESS you are part of a sect on the fringe of society, in which case you have no rights, evidently.

Being on the fringe of society is not the issue. Adults having unlawful intercourse (statutory rape) with minors and child abuse is the issue.

If you (general not specific 'you') don't like the law, that's your option. If you violate the law, you risk consequences. <Insert quip about personal responsibility.>

I commend the San Angelo and other west Texas law enforcement, along with the FBI, for executing a lawful search.

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There must have been a better way to do this.

What would you have suggested/recommended?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[piper17 1]

It reminds me of the actions of the federal government regarding their actions at Waco....the lie of the Davidian compound being a meth lab which justified the introduction of the US military equipment (war on drugs) and the BATF claiming that the Davidians had automatic weapons although none have ever been shown.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[wmw999 2,460]

I was a child abuse investigator in the 1970's. At that time, the conventional wisdom was that children did not lie about sexual abuse most particularly, and only rarely about abuse in general.

It's changed over the years. But, from Wikipedia

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A False allegation of child sexual abuse is an accusation that a person committed one or more acts of child sexual abuse when in reality there was no perpetration of abuse by the accused person as alleged. Studies of child abuse allegations suggest that the overall rate of false accusation is low, less than 10% as approximated based on multiple studies. Of the allegations determined to be false, only a small portion originated with the child, the studies showed; most false allegations originated with an adult bringing the accusations on behalf of a child, and of those, a large majority occurred in the context of divorce and child-custody battles.

These statements have quite a few references to studies in the Wikipedia entry, most from the 90's.

Further down it says:

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there is no formal determination as to what portion of those represent false allegations. Findings of multiple studies performed between 1987 and 1995 suggested that the rate of false allegations ranged from a low of 6% to a high of 35% of reported child sexual abuse cases Experts have argued that the reason for the wide range of differences in the rates resulted from different criteria used in various studies. In particular, a lower rate was found in studies that considered false allegations to be based on intentional lying, whereas the higher rates were reported in studies that also added unintentional false allegations resulting from suggestive questioning

So, well, it doesn't look like it happens real often. But it does happen. Yeah, Wikipedia isn't perfect. But folks can always go look up the sources.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Zipp0 1]

My sister accused my dad of (non-sexual) abuse when she was 13, on drugs, and totally out of control. When my dad tried to take control of her life, her answer was to "put him in his place." There was found to be absolutely no basis for the charge, (dropped) and my sister ended up in the psych ward for a week. We all knew it was bullshit, but my dad was devistaed that he had to stand before people and prove that he wasn't an abuser.

So it does happen.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[funjumper101 15]

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So, one girl calls and says she was abused, and that justifies taking 400 other children into state custody? And now they can't even find that original caller? (fishy) On top of that they refuse to honor the sanctity of the temple? (try that with a mosque)

I am not for polygamy or child abuse, but I think the law may have gone a bit too far in this case. It worries me that we think we have rights, UNLESS you are part of a sect on the fringe of society, in which case you have no rights, evidently.

There must have been a better way to do this.

I take it that you didn't read the transcripts of the two phone calls or listen to the audio. That is what started the investigation.
During the investigation, evidence of further crimes was uncovered. Horrible crimes against defenseless children, perpetrated by a conspiracy of adult men.

Are you making the argument that since they could find the original caller, the authorites should have ignored the evidence of other crimes and let FLDS continue as they were?

Are you making the argument that that there was any sactity was due the "temple" where the ceremonial bed for consumating the "marriages" was located?

It is one thing to be a fringe sect. FLDS is way past that. Given what went on there, it is shameful that nothing was done for so long.

Why weren't the kids required to go to public school?
If they were being home-schooled or the church was running its own schools, what organization was overseeing the schooling?

Dude, we are at war.
Don't you realize that that means that whatever rights we used to have are gone? The Padilla case proved it. The WOT will never end. Our rights have been whittled away since I was a kid. The tool has evolved from pocketknife to chainsaw under shrubco.

[Zipp0 1]

Sure that's the issue(sex with minors), but in my opinion Jeff's crime and a phone call is not enough evidence to justify taking 400 children away. In America you are supposed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law. Just wait until this goes to court - It will be a disaster.

So they find a bed in the temple and plaster that on the news, like "Look! a bed!!" Big fucking deal. We had a couch in the church - so you could lie down if you needed to!

Like I said, this should be dealt with - But they went about it in totally the wrong way.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[ryoder 1,590]

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So, well, it doesn't look like it happens real often. But it does happen. Yeah, Wikipedia isn't perfect. But folks can always go look up the sources.

And the biggest circus of them all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[nerdgirl 0]

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But they went about it in totally the wrong way.

What would your recommended course of action have been?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Zipp0 1]

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But they went about it in totally the wrong way.

What would your recommended course of action have been?

/Marg

Maybe take the girl who called into custody and start an INVESTIGATION?

Nah, fuck that, take them all and sort it out later. Yeah, that's the American way.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Shotgun 1]

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Maybe take the girl who called into custody and start an INVESTIGATION?

They did start an investigation, and based on what they found in the investigation they decided to remove the children from what appeared to be an abusive situation (based on a good amount of evidence).

Would you prefer that they leave the children in an abusive situation until the girl who called is found or until a lengthy trial has taken place to prove the abuse? That is not the way that CPS works. In most cases where abuse is fairly evident, the children are removed from their homes immediately. This case is no different.

[funjumper101 15]

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Sure that's the issue(sex with minors), but in my opinion Jeff's crime and a phone call is not enough evidence to justify taking 400 children away. In America you are supposed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law. Just wait until this goes to court - It will be a disaster.

So they find a bed in the temple and plaster that on the news, like "Look! a bed!!" Big fucking deal. We had a couch in the church - so you could lie down if you needed to!

Like I said, this should be dealt with - But they went about it in totally the wrong way.

The 400 kids are in protective custody. Given what has been uncovered during the investigation, I can't see how anyone could find fault with that.

They found a bed, female hair, and have affadavits relating to the rapes that occured in that bed. They'll be doing DNA testing on the kids to determine who are the biological parents are. I am sure they'll be testing the sheets on the bed as well.

Being a fringe religion has nothing to do with what is going on. If no child abuse was going on and they weren't unlawfully imprisoning the own members, there wouldn't have been a problem. The main LDS church has done everything they could to sweep the FLDS under the rug for decades. Back before Utah started getting populated by non-Mormons, LDS was pretty successful at it. Once there started being newspapers run by non-Mormons who would report on the reality of what was going on, they couldn't keep the facts from being known to the rest of the country.

FLDS has been around a long time. Aided and abetted by the main LDS.

There was a news story on TV a while ago regarding the FLDS facilities on the Utah/Arizona border. Lots of nasty stuff was exposed. The story is part of what got Jeffs indicted. Lots of good came out of the exposure of this creepy so called "religion".

[nerdgirl 0]

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But they went about it in totally the wrong way.

What would your recommended course of action have been?

/Marg

Maybe take the girl who called into custody and start an INVESTIGATION?

Now I'm really confused ...
What do you think the search warrants were part of?

The San Angelo local & county Texas law enforcement, working with federal law enforcement, were doing what you describe -- what you recommend.

They acted on probable cause, obtained warrants though the process of law, there was some unspecified communication between law enforcement & members of the sect before they arrived at the compound, and they executed the warrants to obtain evidence as part of an investigation.

They actually did what you said.

When they attempted to locate the known minor as part of the ongoing investigation, she could not/cannot be found.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[auburnguy 0]

They found a girl who was 16 and had give birth at 15. Line all the men in there up and shoot them. I'm thinking mini gun.
Religious freedom does not give you the right to abuse women children.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VV5PIO0&show_article=1

"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way."
- Homer Simpson

[billvon 3,008]

>Line all the men in there up and shoot them.

You wanna shoot all the priests in the US, too? I hear some abuse children.

[Thanatos340 1]

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You wanna shoot all the priests in the US, too? I hear some abuse children.

The ones that Molest and Abuse Children.. Yes.
And the ones that KNEW what was going on and did nothing but try to hide it.. Yep, them too.

[lawrocket 3]

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But they went about it in totally the wrong way.

What would your recommended course of action have been?

/Marg

Those for whom you have evidence? Get them.
Those that don't - investigate.
Get evidence and then get them.

Imagine, if you will, that this was a low-income housing situation where it was being overrun by drugs and violence. The police move in and take all children from there because there had, after all, been a number of incidents of violence and children being harmed.

So take them all!

That's not justice. It's guilt by association.

Shouldn't there be some balancing going on?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[AWL71 0]

"FLDS has been around a long time. Aided and abetted by the main LDS."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints

That claim is total crap. FLDS has never been given aid by the LDS Church.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[Shotgun 1]

It doesn't sound like they took all of the children, just all of the female children. And it sounds like they have evidence that pretty much all female children at that compound are being or will be sexually abused.