FLDS Raid

[lawrocket 3]

Okay. I'm reading more.

and I am getting more and mor convinced that I was wrong in my earlier posts.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Shotgun 1]

I'm reading some more too, and actually it doesn't seem to be clear whether they took all of the children or just all of the girls. Something I had read earlier led me to believe that it was just the girls, but now I'm not sure.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Those for whom you have evidence? Get them.
Those that don't - investigate.
Get evidence and then get them.

As far as the publically available reports, that is what happened and is happening in the ongoing investigation.
Do you have source that indicate otherwise?

Who has been denied due process as you see it?

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Imagine, if you will, that this was a low-income housing situation where it was being overrun by drugs and violence. The police move in and take all children from there because there had, after all, been a number of incidents of violence and children being harmed.

So take them all!

That's not justice. It's guilt by association.

Who’s being targeted for “guilt by association”?
That may be a question for another post.

A warrant has been issued for the arrest of the 50-yo “husband,” who has already pled guilty to a prior charge related to sexual abuse of a minor. Is anyone asking why this guy got 45 days & 3 years probation instead of longer jail term? His illegal behavior is also being rationalized: “his marriage to [the unnamed minor] seemed to me very natural and proper" by another member of the FLDS sect.

I have not seen any accounts of arrests beyond what have been described as a couple of "minor arrests for tampering with evidence" during execution of the search warrants. Please edify me if you have.

Per the reports available publically, there was balance and sensitivity on the part of the law enforcement. Allegedly they even waited to the very end of the search (under the search warrant) to enter the temple area. Do you ever reports to the contrary?

The police had been attempting to contact a minor who indicated she had been abused for an unspecified number of days unsuccessfully. They may be required to investigate by law.

To more accurately parallel the situation in your scenario, a minor must make a complaint, there must also be a multi-year informant within the low-income housing/compound, enough evidence needs to be gained to obtain a warrant, and the individuals need to be contacted before law enforcement arrives.

If in the situation you described, (1) upon execution of a lawfully obtained warrant , (2) law enforcement observed evidence of neglect, abuse, or other crimes against the children , would they not be required by the law to remove those children from the site?

Based on what was found during the investigation per the search warrant, the minors were removed by state Child Protective Service. All of what they found has not been disclosed; there was (remains?) a gag order in effect.

From the Salt Lake Tribune, “18 of the girls remained in state custody, meaning they are considered to be under threat of physical, mental or sexual abuse, or of neglect, said Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for the Texas Child Protective Service.”

I have not seen anything reported – please show sources if you have information otherwise – to suggest anything other than execution of due process of law. The FLDS is not being prevented from challenging the search. Fantastic. (If they were, I would argue that would be a problem.) May their challenge go forward and may the process that led to issue of the search warrants be found to be so ‘tight-n-right’ that the FLDS’ challenges are determined to lack merit. I absolutely want them to have the opportunity to challenge. I also want the minor -- the victim -- to have an opportunity to have her day in court if so warranted.

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Shouldn't there be some balancing going on?

Yes. Absolutely.

To the issue of balance, one can argue that for 50 years after the 1953 Short Creek, AZ raid, the “balance” was weighted steeply against minors and in favor of polygamists. (Again, it’s not an issue of normatives; polygamy, child abuse, and statutory rape are illegal.) The last few years represents regaining “balance” w/r/t polygamy, child abuse, and statutory rape by members of this sect.

The heroes are the Texas Rangers, the County Sheriffs, and the Texas Child Protective Service.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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Okay. I'm reading more.

and I am getting more and mor convinced that I was wrong in my earlier posts.

Well, you prompted me to think more analytically and rigorously about the issue, so I appreciate that.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[livendive 8]

The state absolutely has a responsobility of preventing child molestation and/or abuse and prosecuting those guilty. What bothers me about this is the whole "polygamist" slant the media keeps harping on. This country was founded to a large degree on the principle of religous freedom. If muslims, mormons, or any other sect wants to practice polygamy, it's fine by me, as long as it only involves consenting adults. Of course I'm also wacky enough to believe gays should be allowed to marry. In my opinion, marriage should be a private matter between the parties involved and those they announce it to. Taxes and social benefits should not be determined on the basis of it. The government should not care one bit who is married to whom.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Shotgun 1]

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What bothers me about this is the whole "polygamist" slant the media keeps harping on.

Yeah, that sort of bugs me too. But I guess it's the law that bugs me more than the media's harping on about it. If it wasn't illegal (or considered socially unacceptable) then the media would probably not have much to say about that aspect of the story.

[Lindsey 0]

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My sister accused my dad of (non-sexual) abuse when she was 13, on drugs, and totally out of control. When my dad tried to take control of her life, her answer was to "put him in his place." There was found to be absolutely no basis for the charge, (dropped) and my sister ended up in the psych ward for a week. We all knew it was bullshit, but my dad was devistaed that he had to stand before people and prove that he wasn't an abuser.

So it does happen.

Unless your sister was telling the truth, and (believing your father to be someone who couldn't do such a thing) nobody believed her. In that case, it STILL does happen, just the other way around. Being a woman, and having been a girl...then a pre-adolescent...then a teenager.... I see that side too well. There are times when I might not believe a girl who discloses sexual abuse, but those times are few and far-between. Having been in some trying spots myself, I can't personally imagine someone putting herself there just for shits and grins.

And even worse, I can't imagine working up the courage to disclose sexual abuse and not being believed.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[cloudseeker2001 0]

A raid such as this, and with this many people involved, was well planned and thought out. They did not want another Waco. I do not believe anything the "government" says and it is clear all they needed was this one caller who cannot even be located to get their ball rolling!!!!!!!! Yea right! Believe that you SUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!

Now, where are those damn WMD our government used for justification of the Iraq Nghtmare??????????????? They may just be in West Texas! It is all fun and games until a police unit of jack-booted thugs break into your home in the middle of the night, hold you and your family hostage at gun point and demand to see the tag on your mattress!!!!! It can happen!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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My sister accused my dad of (non-sexual) abuse when she was 13, on drugs, and totally out of control. When my dad tried to take control of her life, her answer was to "put him in his place." There was found to be absolutely no basis for the charge, (dropped) and my sister ended up in the psych ward for a week. We all knew it was bullshit, but my dad was devistaed that he had to stand before people and prove that he wasn't an abuser.

So it does happen.

This happened to one of my extended family members. He and his wife were getting a divorce and the oldest daughter made the false claims. He was convicted and spent a few years in jail. When the girl turned 18, she came clean, and they tried to get everything off his record. I do not know the details, but for whatever reason, the government refused to take anything off.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[diablopilot 2]

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>Line all the men in there up and shoot them.

You wanna shoot all the priests in the US, too? I hear some abuse children.

That's a good start. Who's next?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Line all the men in there up and shoot them.

You wanna shoot all the priests in the US, too? I hear some abuse children.

That's a good start. Who's next?

Wait - I thought it was "First, we kill all the lawyers*"?

*except for our friendly skydiving ones, of course!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[auburnguy 0]

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>Line all the men in there up and shoot them.

You wanna shoot all the priests in the US, too? I hear some abuse children.

That's a good start. Who's next?

All the child sex offenders in prisons. Not the ones who got caught in an "i didnt know she wasnt 18" situation. The ones who knowingly molested a child or have raped someone. That seems like a good place to go. But then again I am an extremely vicious person.

"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way."
- Homer Simpson

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Are there cases of these errors creating innocent victims? Yep, but there are more cases of inaction having worse consequences.

Would love to see that statement supported with evidence.

Without trying for more than ten seconds:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/080410/canada/vancouver_bc_townhall_meeting_questions

[georgerussia 0]

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We all knew it was bullshit, but my dad was devistaed that he had to stand before people and prove that he wasn't an abuser.

Did he throw her out of the house (and out of the family) after that?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Shotgun 1]

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I do not believe anything the "government" says and it is clear all they needed was this one caller who cannot even be located to get their ball rolling!!!!!!!! Yea right! Believe that you SUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!

So, what do you think was their motivation to investigate the place if they didn't think that there was a possible child abuse situation?

[skydyvr 0]

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Are there cases of these errors creating innocent victims? Yep, but there are more cases of inaction having worse consequences.

Would love to see that statement supported with evidence.

Without trying for more than ten seconds:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/080410/canada/vancouver_bc_townhall_meeting_questions

Could have found cases like that in 10 seconds too. But what I was looking for was evidence that there are more cases of inaction than there are cases of creating innocent victims. I do notice your emphasis on "worse consequences", which is true.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Lindsey 0]

It's kind of difficult to find cases of inaction where sexual (or any other) abuse is actually occurring. I have no doubt, though, that they are numerous. For several years I worked as a social worker at Arkansas Children's Hospital. Saw a kajillion of 'em then. I made many reports, and frequently we'd see the same kids in the ER again. It's mind-boggling.

I'm also certain that there are instances in which kids make false disclosures. Rarely, though, do these kids stick with their stories through an investigation. During the course of an investigation, their details don't fit together and ya' know they're lying or they just get beat down--and tired of going through it all. It's not like they can tell a story once, one way, and that be the end of it. The process of an investigation and prosecution (if it goes that far) is pretty intense.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Zipp0 1]

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I'm reading some more too, and actually it doesn't seem to be clear whether they took all of the children or just all of the girls. Something I had read earlier led me to believe that it was just the girls, but now I'm not sure.

Probably 70% of the reporting is wrong. That's how it usually seems to go.

Anyway, if the police did this the wrong way (and I bet they did) this will solve absolutely nothing and will only lead to further abuse. Unless we see mass arrests of the men who are the abusers and they are locked up for life, this will only drive these people further underground. It is also interesting to note that after the 1953 raid there were no prosecutions.

These people have now had their beliefs confirmed. They have been taught that this would happen - they will be persecuted for their faith. This will only steel their determination to carry on.

I hope that I am wrong and the investigation was done right so that any and all abusers can be put away for good, because if that doesn't happen, all of this was for nothing.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[jakee 1,497]

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Probably 70% of the reporting is wrong. That's how it usually seems to go.

Anyway, if the police did this the wrong way (and I bet they did) this will solve absolutely nothing and will only lead to further abuse. Unless we see mass arrests of the men who are the abusers and they are locked up for life, this will only drive these people further underground. It is also interesting to note that after the 1953 raid there were no prosecutions.

These people have now had their beliefs confirmed. They have been taught that this would happen - they will be persecuted for their faith. This will only steel their determination to carry on.

Wait, I'm confused. Were the police too harsh for taking all the kids away, or not harsh enough for not arresting every adult in the compound?

(BTW, if these guys believe that they will be persecuted for having multiple marriages to underage girls, then yeah, that belief is damn well going to be confirmed)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Zipp0 1]

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Probably 70% of the reporting is wrong. That's how it usually seems to go.

Anyway, if the police did this the wrong way (and I bet they did) this will solve absolutely nothing and will only lead to further abuse. Unless we see mass arrests of the men who are the abusers and they are locked up for life, this will only drive these people further underground. It is also interesting to note that after the 1953 raid there were no prosecutions.

These people have now had their beliefs confirmed. They have been taught that this would happen - they will be persecuted for their faith. This will only steel their determination to carry on.

Wait, I'm confused. Were the police too harsh for taking all the kids away, or not harsh enough for not arresting every adult in the compound?

(BTW, if these guys believe that they will be persecuted for having multiple marriages to underage girls, then yeah, that belief is damn well going to be confirmed)

Alot of people around here seem easily confused lately.

Yes, I think they may have been harsh to take all the kids without evidence that shows each child taken was being abused. (maybe they have this evidence, but so far it seems up in the air)

If they did this correctly, every abuser would be under arrest right now. So far there have been no arrests for sexual abuse relating to this raid. If there was so much abuse as to justify taking all of the kids (or females only?) then where are the arrests?

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[skydyvr 0]

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It's kind of difficult to find cases of inaction where sexual (or any other) abuse is actually occurring. I have no doubt, though, that they are numerous. For several years I worked as a social worker at Arkansas Children's Hospital. Saw a kajillion of 'em then. I made many reports, and frequently we'd see the same kids in the ER again. It's mind-boggling.

I'm also certain that there are instances in which kids make false disclosures. Rarely, though, do these kids stick with their stories through an investigation. During the course of an investigation, their details don't fit together and ya' know they're lying or they just get beat down--and tired of going through it all. It's not like they can tell a story once, one way, and that be the end of it. The process of an investigation and prosecution (if it goes that far) is pretty intense.

linz

I'm an ER volunteer at a local hospital, and have also seen more than a few cases of obvious spouse/child abuse. The cops are always called in suspect cases, but not always is someone arrested.

. . =(_8^(1)

[GQ_jumper 4]

Some more information on this story for those who are complaining about officials stealing people's rights. There was an informant inside the compound for 4 years feeding evidence to authorities so there was no lack of evidence prior to getting a warrant to raid the compound. It also appears that authorities were wanting to enter the compound for quite a while but held off because they didn't have sufficient evidence to acquire the warrants and didn't want to risk allowing the suspects to get off on technicalities because the investigation wasn't thorough enough.

I don't have an internet link for it at the moment I just caught the end of the story on the news a few minutes ago. Seems like the authorities did all the right things in this case.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Zipp0 1]

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Some more information on this story for those who are complaining about officials stealing people's rights. There was an informant inside the compound for 4 years feeding evidence to authorities so there was no lack of evidence prior to getting a warrant to raid the compound. It also appears that authorities were wanting to enter the compound for quite a while but held off because they didn't have sufficient evidence to acquire the warrants and didn't want to risk allowing the suspects to get off on technicalities because the investigation wasn't thorough enough.

I don't have an internet link for it at the moment I just caught the end of the story on the news a few minutes ago. Seems like the authorities did all the right things in this case.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

The Sherrif would not say where on the planet this informant was. All we have at this point is called "heresay"..

http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=03bbbaa5-9ce4-4160-b953-62a714440e25

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[jcd11235 0]

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The Sherrif would not say where on the planet this informant was. All we have at this point is called "heresay"..

Isn't it generally standard practice to keep an informant's identity secret as long as possible?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Zipp0 1]

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The Sherrif would not say where on the planet this informant was. All we have at this point is called "heresay"..

Isn't it generally standard practice to keep an informant's identity secret as long as possible?

Maybe so, but if the informant in this case in in Canada it will look pretty bad for police.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.