FLDS Raid

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Probably. I do not watch TV at all, so I miss much of what most people think it true information. I have read a number of websites concerning this case, but the gossip is mostly left out of written word.

Interesting... All the information I've heard has also been from news websites, and it seems to me that they have quite a bit of evidence showing that underage girls in this group have been forced to marry and have sex with older men.

Post some please.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

Here is one story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89476130

But I think you have to look beyond the current situation in TX and look at the recent history of FLDS to see that there is a good chance that sexual abuse was happening at the Eldorado compound.

I think there are several posts in here already that point to some of that info, but I'll give you some more links later if I have time.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Here is one story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89476130

But I think you have to look beyond the current situation in TX and look at the recent history of FLDS to see that there is a good chance that sexual abuse was happening at the Eldorado compound.

I think there are several posts in here already that point to some of that info, but I'll give you some more links later if I have time.

That happened in Utah, not Texas. The Texas Ranger could not even arrest Barlows a few days ago and his probation officer can prove he has been in Utah. Does that not sound odd at the very least? Where and who is the girl the called for help? Why do they not even know the name of the person they are supposed to arrest for this crime? And how can you belive what the police say has happend if they cannot even provide these simple facts? The cops have more together in traffic court than this case!

Please post info on the Texas case.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Here is one story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89476130

But I think you have to look beyond the current situation in TX and look at the recent history of FLDS to see that there is a good chance that sexual abuse was happening at the Eldorado compound.

Guilty by association……was that just added to the US Constitution? Where are the facts concerning the Texas Case?

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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Please post info on the Texas case.

The link I posted is about the Texas case. And doing a news search will give you more info about that case.

If you think it's just a big government conspiracy, fine; I can't prove to you that it's not. But I don't believe it is. I also don't believe that anyone in this case is necessarily guilty (because I don't have enough information to say that), but it sounds like there was enough evidence to take the children into temporary custody while the situation is further examined (which is what they are doing). It's a horrible situation for the kids inolved, but I'm not sure how it could be handled differently.

[Zipp0 1]

Here's the thing that makes me wonder. Can't they get the phone number that called the hotline, track down the person, and find out who it was that called? I mean, it can't be this freaking difficult. That and the whole "borrowed call phone" just doesn't add up. These answers would be so easy to get but it seems nobody wants them answered.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Please post info on the Texas case.

The link I posted is about the Texas case. And doing a news search will give you more info about that case.

If you think it's just a big government conspiracy, fine; I can't prove to you that it's not. But I don't believe it is. I also don't believe that anyone in this case is necessarily guilty (because I don't have enough information to say that), but it sounds like there was enough evidence to take the children into temporary custody while the situation is further examined (which is what they are doing). It's a horrible situation for the kids inolved, but I'm not sure how it could be handled differently.

My point is that I think the government has lied concerning its probable cause to invade this compound, and you have failed to prove me wrong.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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My point is that I think the government has lied concerning its probable cause to invade this compound, and you have failed to prove me wrong.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, as I do not know whether they are lying or not. But I have no reason to believe that they are lying about it.

[PLFXpert 0]

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My point is that I think the government has lied concerning its probable cause to invade this compound, and you have failed to prove me wrong.

When it comes to probable (do you disagree abuse in this case is probable?) abuse--particularly sexually--of children, I really don't give a shit how they got around the law to do what they can to stop it.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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My point is that I think the government has lied concerning its probable cause to invade this compound, and you have failed to prove me wrong.

When it comes to probable (do you disagree abuse in this case is probable?) abuse--particularly sexually--of children, I really don't give a shit how they got around the law to do what they can to stop it.

What if someone called the CPS and told them you and your friends where abusing children and the police arrested you, wreaked your home, locked your accounts, put your name in the public and made a fool of you? It makes no difference if you did it or not, everyone will think you did and it will give people on DZ.com something to talk about! I guess you would not care, after all, it is for the children.

How do you think we got into the Iraq mess to begin with? Could it be lies???????????

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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My point is that I think the government has lied concerning its probable cause to invade this compound, and you have failed to prove me wrong.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, as I do not know whether they are lying or not. But I have no reason to believe that they are lying about it.

Are you sure you are not trying to prove me wrong?

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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Are you sure you are not trying to prove me wrong?

Yes, I am sure. I'm just telling you that I don't think the same thing that you think regarding the government lying about the phone call. But since I have no way of knowing whether I am right or wrong, I certainly can't prove anything to you.

[Shotgun 1]

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What if someone called the CPS and told them you and your friends where abusing children and the police arrested you, wreaked your home, locked your accounts, put your name in the public and made a fool of you? It makes no difference if you did it or not, everyone will think you did and it will give people on DZ.com something to talk about!

CPS doesn't just take an anonymous phone call about child abuse and then go to that person's house and take their children. They will investigate the situation and take the children if they feel there is actual evidence of abuse.

I spent a couple of years working for a place that dealt with abused children (in TX), and I never saw a case where children were taken away from their homes without a pretty good reason. And even if the children are taken away, the alleged abuser is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But in a child abuse case, CPS can't just leave the children in their homes until after the court date, because they will generally be at risk in that situation.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I spent a couple of years working for a place that dealt with abused children (in TX), and I never saw a case where children were taken away from their homes without a pretty good reason. And even if the children are taken away, the alleged abuser is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

well, that's useful. So a few thousand dollars in attorney fees and they can have their kid back, IF they're found innocent? And like sex offenders (teachers), once accused, you're never innocent. You're always 'alledged.'

In the circumstance I'm most familiar with, the kid of a divorced parent set decided she liked the lack of parenting by her mom much more than the parenting by her dad, and made the call.

[kelpdiver 2]

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When it comes to probable (do you disagree abuse in this case is probable?) abuse--particularly sexually--of children, I really don't give a shit how they got around the law to do what they can to stop it.

this is the same reasoning behind the Patriot Act and other great legislation in American history.

[Shotgun 1]

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well, that's useful. So a few thousand dollars in attorney fees and they can have their kid back, IF they're found innocent? And like sex offenders (teachers), once accused, you're never innocent. You're always 'alledged.'

So, what do you suggest as a better alternative? Just ignore any possible child abuse unless a cop happens to witness the abuse when it happens?

Yes, it sucks that people are sometimes falsely accused, but I believe the false cases are in the minority. I think that there are probably a lot more "real" cases that never get reported than there are false accusations.

[rushmc 23]

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When it comes to probable (do you disagree abuse in this case is probable?) abuse--particularly sexually--of children, I really don't give a shit how they got around the law to do what they can to stop it.

this is the same reasoning behind the Patriot Act and other great legislation in American history.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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But they went about it in totally the wrong way.

What would your recommended course of action have been?

/Marg

Maybe take the girl who called into custody and start an INVESTIGATION?

Nah, fuck that, take them all and sort it out later. Yeah, that's the American way.

You indicate you know that is not what happened. Sources?

Or are you just mirroring the positions of the "news" sites you frequent?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>Line all the men in there up and shoot them.

You wanna shoot all the priests in the US, too? I hear some abuse children.

OK

If they are guilty without any doubt I would concur

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Are you sure you are not trying to prove me wrong?

Yes, I am sure. I'm just telling you that I don't think the same thing that you think regarding the government lying about the phone call. But since I have no way of knowing whether I am right or wrong, I certainly can't prove anything to you.

No reason to be modest, you are a skydiver after all, you know you are right!!!!!!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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What if someone called the CPS and told them you and your friends where abusing children and the police arrested you, wreaked your home, locked your accounts, put your name in the public and made a fool of you? It makes no difference if you did it or not, everyone will think you did and it will give people on DZ.com something to talk about!

CPS doesn't just take an anonymous phone call about child abuse and then go to that person's house and take their children. They will investigate the situation and take the children if they feel there is actual evidence of abuse.

I spent a couple of years working for a place that dealt with abused children (in TX), and I never saw a case where children were taken away from their homes without a pretty good reason. And even if the children are taken away, the alleged abuser is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But in a child abuse case, CPS can't just leave the children in their homes until after the court date, because they will generally be at risk in that situation.

I know two CPS workers and I am amazed by some of the things they cook up together on people.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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And dust that dead skull you have on your wall!!!!!!

Umm... He's dead. I don't think he minds if he's got a bit of dust on him.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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And dust that dead skull you have on your wall!!!!!!

Umm... He's dead. I don't think he minds if he's got a bit of dust on him.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[shaark 0]

Slightly off topic, but similar. And apologies if I am politically incorrect. A couple in their 30's came to the D.Z. Both pretty scraggy looking. Husband thin and scrawny. Wife very unappealing. Anyway, she did a first tandem jump. Jump done, they left. Thirty minutes later he returned, foaming at the mouth, yelling, aggressive ---- His wife had been sexually molested by the TM!
Whatever on the day, but by the start of the week there were lawyers involved, and informational/threatening letters sent to the airport manager, the city, USPA, the gear manufacturer, etc. Knee-jerk reaction by the manufacturer --- the (fulltime) TM's rating was pulled, without any investigation. There were plenty of witnesses against the student, and an extensive video of the airplane ride, the freefall and most of the canopy ride from pretty close range. Nothing untoward happened.
Lots of ado for the next 4-6 weeks, and then it all went away. The husband related that his wife thought he was playing around, so she made up the story to make him jealous.
So I suppose allegations need to be looked into, but from every end; and evidence is crucial, though lack of same may still leave questions. Sometimes unfortunately a can of worms.
By the way, the woman suffered no repercussions.
LOL

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[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Where were the FLDS children going to school?

The children were homeschooled, which is legal in all states here, although the laws vary by state.

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Who was supervising the curriculm?

The parents probably, in texas homeschooling is viewed like private schools are. There are no attendence requirements and the education requirements are general, to include reading, spelling, grammar, math and good citizenship.

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Who was testing the kids academic performance?

Probably the parents, in public schools they have TEKS testing, which yea is great but honestly most of my childrens education revolves around the TEKS testing because the results are related to govt funding. Private schools do not have to give standard tests but many do. I assume that if the children were being homeschooled they recieved grades for their work.

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How did they perform on the required "No Child Left Behind" testing program?

Homeschools are not required to (at this time) participate in the testing for "no child left behind". A homeschooled child should not ever be considered left behind so blindly as you make it seem. I am not speaking just towards the cult but in general. Homeschooled children often score higher on standard tests / college entrance exams ect then their public schooled peers. Homeschoolers are more likely to be accepted into college including an ivy school then their public school peers.

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It would have done those kids a world of good to have to leave the ranch every day to attend school.

So then we should force the Amish to send their kids to public school as well. Had it not been for the abuse claims I could care less about the cult, but the last concern of mine is their education.

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They would have been exposed to the evil outside world

Well just like the amish that is their belief, and as long as it stayed within the laws then there isnt a problem. However this compound is alledged to have broken the laws and thats where the issue is.

The sad thing is, people only hear about homeschooling when it is in regards to an abusive parent. One rarely hears about the good of homeschooling. To imply that the homeschooling children did not recieve a proper legal education is not relavent to the crimes they are charged with. Homeschooling families are growing as violence in the public system grows. Parents choosing to meet their childrens education needs is no different then a parent choosing to let that rest with the govt.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this