“Who is the real patriot?”

[nerdgirl 0]

That’s the question asked in a provocative Chicago Tribune Op-ed from 10 days ago with a challenging perspective by two retired veterans, one of whom also served as Assistant Secretary of Defense during President Reagan’s Administration. These guy suffer no lack of bona fides.

In all of the discussion (to put it diplomatically) that has ensued w/r/t the Rev Wright videos, I find it curious that this has not been brought up before. Heard about it this morning on NPR.

I don’t concur w/the implied answer that Korb and Moss suggest but not for the reasons underlying their argument.

What a great illustration of how
(1) complex the real world is,
(2) how any narrow categorizing, valorizing, or condemning (people or people whom they associate by specific attributes) can be harshly limiting.

VR/Marg

- - -- --- ----- --------

“Factor military duty into criticism”

“In 1961, a young African-American man, after hearing President John F. Kennedy's challenge to, ‘Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country,’ gave up his student deferment, left college in Virginia and voluntarily joined the Marines.

“In 1963, this man, having completed his two years of service in the Marines, volunteered again to become a Navy corpsman. (They provide medical assistance to the Marines as well as to Navy personnel.)

“The man did so well in corpsman school that he was the valedictorian and became a cardiopulmonary technician. Not surprisingly, he was assigned to the Navy's premier medical facility, Bethesda Naval Hospital, as a member of the commander in chief's medical team, and helped care for President Lyndon B. Johnson after his 1966 surgery. For his service on the team, which he left in 1967, the White House awarded him three letters of commendation.

“What is even more remarkable is that this man entered the Marines and Navy not many years after the two branches began to become integrated.

“While this young man was serving six years on active duty, Vice President Dick Cheney, who was born the same year as the Marine/sailor, received five deferments, four for being an undergraduate and graduate student and one for being a prospective father. Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, both five years younger than the African-American youth, used their student deferments to stay in college until 1968. Both then avoided going on active duty through family connections.

“Who is the real patriot? The young man who interrupted his studies to serve his country for six years or our three political leaders who beat the system? Are the patriots the people who actually sacrifice something or those who merely talk about their love of the country?

“After leaving the service of his country, the young African-American finished his final year of college, entered the seminary, was ordained as a minister, and eventually became pastor of a large church in one of America’s biggest cities.

“This man is Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the retiring pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, who has been in the news for comments he made over the last three decades.

“Since these comments became public we have heard criticisms, condemnations, denouncements and rejections of his comments and him.

“We’ve seen on television, in a seemingly endless loop, sound bites of a select few of Rev. Wright’s many sermons.

“Some of the Wright’s comments are inexcusable and inappropriate and should be condemned, but in calling him “unpatriotic,” let us not forget that this is a man who gave up six of the most productive years of his life to serve his country.

“How many of Wright's detractors, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly to name but a few, volunteered for service, and did so under the often tumultuous circumstances of a newly integrated armed forces and a society in the midst of a civil rights struggle? Not many.

“While words do count, so do actions.

“Let us not forget that, for whatever Rev. Wright may have said over the last 30 years, he has demonstrated his patriotism.

Lawrence Korb and Ian Moss are, respectively, Navy and Marine Corps veterans. Korb served as assistant secretary of Defense in the Reagan administration.

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 2,029]

You've got it all wrong, nerdgirl. Patriotism is proven by having a US flag in every photo-op and talking the talk. We've all seen how the neo-con "patriots" smeared McCain in 2000, and Kerry in 2004.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

Haven't seen a whole lot of people questioning patriotism per se, rather than pointing out the very stuff he says, and believes is counter to the actions of his past.

I've not met anyone that agrees with the sentiment of the sermons that have been given so much coverage. What I'm curious about are the things that aren't getting coverage, such as reports that the Trinity United Church of Christ may be losing its tax exempt status. The Church may also be using a $10M LOC to build Rev. Wright a house in a gated golf community. That's in line with his humble preachings huh?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Haven't seen a whole lot of people questioning patriotism per se, rather than pointing out the very stuff he says, and believes is counter to the actions of his past.

While there has been a lot of thoughtful dialogue – including some nuanced critical analyses and discussion in other threads here – there has also been that which is ‘less than diplomatic’ (to put it diplomatically).

Unfortunately, I have not previously seen any acknowledgement of his military service or indication that anyone within this forum was aware of it.

And unfortunately, I also strongly doubt that the nuanced and thoughtful discussions and dialogues on the state of race relations in 21st Century America are what inspired the two Republican veterans to pen the Op-Ed cited above.

[Specific posts and threads from this forum, from the blog-o-sphere, and from commercial media sources -- i.e., the primary data -- sent via PM; anyone else can PM me … or use "Search Posts"/Google. Not a single one mentions Rev. Wright’s exemplary service record, while implicitly or explicitly challenging his loyalty and affinity to the country he served.]

The point isn’t to defend or impugn Rev Wright or Sen Obama. The point is what I indicated above, as well as to introduce something that has not been widely acknowledged, or as Korb & Moss’ piece was titled “Factor military duty into criticism” - a Paul Harvey-esque “rest of the story.”

As I wrote, I also don’t agree unilaterally w/Korb & Moss’ conclusions: serving as CINC 8 years (each, President Clinton & Bush) & as SecDef 4 years (VP Cheney) is patriotic service, regardless of my agreement or disagreement with the policies of each.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Amazon 7]

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As I wrote, I also don’t agree unilaterally w/Korb & Moss’ conclusions: serving as CINC 8 years (each, President Clinton & Bush) & as SecDef 4 years (VP Cheney) is patriotic service, regardless of my agreement or disagreement with the policies of each.

At least he appears to be serving out his term of duty THIS time.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

You've got it all wrong, nerdgirl. Patriotism is proven by having a US flag in every photo-op and talking the talk. We've all seen how the neo-con "patriots" smeared McCain in 2000, and Kerry in 2004.

To question someones views is not to say they are unpatriotic. Conversly, being in the military does not make you patriotic.

When those that questioned Bushes policies in Iraq were thensleves questioned, those being "questioned", SELF proclaimed that they were being calledatriotic. An effort to silence detractors. Fortunately it did not work as the ploy was seen through

Now, more to the point of nerdgirls post.

I knew the Rev was a Marine. Where did I here it? On Fox News.

Tell me please how his comments have anything to do with being or not being patriotic?

I see his comments as racist in a certain light but I do not think he meant them in that context. He, as Jackson and those like him, needs victims to say in power or position.

If true, what is he really?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[likearock 2]

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While there has been a lot of thoughtful dialogue – including some nuanced critical analyses and discussion in other threads here – there has also been that which is ‘less than diplomatic’ (to put it diplomatically).

Unfortunately, I have not previously seen any acknowledgement of his military service or indication that anyone within this forum was aware of it.

Hate speech is just that. No amount of military service or other "character" references excuses it, whether it comes from Jeremiah Wright or Pat Robertson (who also served as a marine).

[akarunway 1]

Mel Gibson. And to the people who believe the current admin. (and all politicians) are patriots. Gimme a fuckin break. They are fuckin this country (and you) to death for the godalmighty dollar that ain't worth the paper it's printed on. Fuckin sheep. Wake up people.Edit to add. Read this. I agree wholeheartedly.>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=559133&in_page_id=1811 Better save up on the lead and brass folks.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 3,008]

>Tell me please how his comments have anything to do with being or
>not being patriotic?

As Nerdgirl mentioned, a great many right wingers are claiming that Wright hates America because they believe that his comments indicate that - when in fact he has proven his support for this country through his actions far more than his detractors have.

>If true, what is he really?

A US soldier who served his country honorably, but grew up during a time when "his kind" were not allowed to marry whites or go to white schools.

[Lindsey 0]

A US soldier who served his country honorably, but grew up during a time when "his kind" were not allowed to marry whites or go to white schools.

And I think we forget that those days weren't long ago at all. Even if ya' don't agree with. people's sentiments, it's valuable to at least be able to understand where they're coming from...at least I think so.

When I was a teenager, a guy I was dating and I (actually it was him and I was just along) stole the "Colored" sign from outside a bathroom at a local gas station. Wasn't. that long ago. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[PhreeZone 20]

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What I'm curious about are the things that aren't getting coverage, such as reports that the Trinity United Church of Christ may be losing its tax exempt status.

I will put this one out there right now that if Trinity UCC loses their tax exempt status look for Rod Parsley's (McCain's "spiritial advisor") World Harvest Church to lose or fight to keep its tax exempt status with in a few months or year also. WHC has had investigations started already by the IRS for potential misuse of funds but the investigation for the most part stalled out due to politics and other issues http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/24/AR2006042401432_pf.html but locally stories are floating that the state government might launch its own investigation because the new AG and Sec of State is cracking down on everything that the last administration was involved in since it had some issues with corruption on a few items.

The part I laugh at with WHC and their tax exempt fight is that they are in hot water for actively campainging for conservatives but they are also a polling location (that tends to go democrat) since they are one of the only locations able to handle the number of voters for the area they are in.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[funjumper101 15]

It will be VERY amusing to see what the righties have to say.

Thanks for posting this.

[TankBuster 0]

Quote

As Nerdgirl mentioned, a great many right wingers are claiming that Wright hates America because they believe that his comments indicate that - when in fact he has proven his support for this country through his actions far more than his detractors have.

What do you believe his comments indicate? I applaud his service, but he seems to have turned down a different path since he took up the cause of black liberation theology.... He claims the government invented AIDS to kill off the black man? Maybe he hasn't departed from patriotism. He's departed from sanity.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>Tell me please how his comments have anything to do with being or
>not being patriotic?

As Nerdgirl mentioned, a great many right wingers are claiming that Wright hates America because they believe that his comments indicate that - when in fact he has proven his support for this country through his actions far more than his detractors have.

>If true, what is he really?

A US soldier who served his country honorably, but grew up during a time when "his kind" were not allowed to marry whites or go to white schools.

Many right wingers........... once again a generalization which is bull shit. Just like the word concensus

In any event, as long as he has an excuse (which you buy or create) it is ok he preaches hate.

I can only imagine the uproar had a "right winger" said something similar from the pulpit.

Oh, and before you spin it, I am not quesioning his service in any fashion at all but, it cant be used as an excuse or a get out of jail free card either

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

It will be VERY amusing to see what the righties have to say.

Thanks for posting this.

Better than "lefties" defending (their) racists and bigots.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Rev. Jeremiah Wright told a congregation in Norfolk, Va., on Sunday that reporters sneaked into a private funeral service a day before, in which he blasted America’s founding fathers for slavery and white supremacy and received standing ovations for attacking FOX News for covering his anti-American sermons.

and then this

Quote

Wright, who is on sabbatical before retiring from Trinity United, said America’s mistreatment of blacks is the result of the founding fathers, who “planted slavery and white supremacy in the DNA of this republic.”

Now, reading this I am not sure exactly who ( in a couple of the cases) or where the "un-patriotic" label is coming from but one this is for sure, the label is being USED by the Rev. for his own purposes.

Can any one come up with a direct quote where some one, other than Wright or one of his supporters, calls the Rev un-patriotic? Who and when? It looks to me this is more the Rev saying others are calling him un-patriotic! Interesting tech if that is truly the case

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/13/jeremiah-wright-sounds-off-at-eulogogy-for-chicago-judge/

Edited to add:

The "un-patriotic" term makes no sense to me. I see him as divisive and anti-American. He can believe and say what he likes but, what he is saying serves what purpose?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,008]

>Can any one come up with a direct quote where some one, other than
>Wright or one of his supporters, calls the Rev un-patriotic?

Rush Limbaugh:

"You focus on the minister's hate, because it's obvious in every sound bite, every bit of footage, this guy hates. He is angry; he is filled with rage; he is anti-America. He hates."

>The "un-patriotic" term makes no sense to me. I see him as divisive
>and anti-American.

What do you think "unpatriotic" means?

[billvon 3,008]

>What do you believe his comments indicate?

That he still sees remnants of the government-enforced racism that existed when he was growing up.

>He claims the government invented AIDS to kill off the black man?

True, that's a pretty dumb statement. But then again, people think Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11, and had WMD's when we invaded. Generally people believe stuff that gets them supporters.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>Can any one come up with a direct quote where some one, other than
>Wright or one of his supporters, calls the Rev un-patriotic?

Rush Limbaugh:

"You focus on the minister's hate, because it's obvious in every sound bite, every bit of footage, this guy hates. He is angry; he is filled with rage; he is anti-America. He hates."

>The "un-patriotic" term makes no sense to me. I see him as divisive
>and anti-American.

What do you think "unpatriotic" means?

Do you want to get the dictionary out?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>What do you believe his comments indicate?

That he still sees remnants of the government-enforced racism that existed when he was growing up.

>He claims the government invented AIDS to kill off the black man?

True, that's a pretty dumb statement. But then again, people think Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11, and had WMD's when we invaded. Generally people believe stuff that gets them supporters.

Any you despise the CDIF replies

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

The "real patriot" is whomever I happen to be supporting. Doesn't anyone see that?

Sure, the Reverend served in war. That was 40 years ago. He got out when the real shit hit the fan. Get it?

Bush? He complied with his orders. He did what he was required to do. Get it? Wink wink.

Clinton? Oh, he DIDN'T do what he was required to do. He played the system.

who is the "real patriot?" Would Bob Kerrey count? Democratice Medal of Honor recipent. Some wouild question his patriotism.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Would Bob Kerrey count? Democratice Medal of Honor recipent. Some wouild question his patriotism.

Right wing hate radio has...

Same goes for Max Cleland

Same goes for Jack Murtha

Same as the far right winger who got the swift boaters to go after John Kerry

And the crap that Rove pulled on John McCain in the 2000 elections...

Same old story from the same people....all of them who failed to serve at all

[TankBuster 0]

So,.......uhm,,,,,,Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine.

Food for thought.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[Amazon 7]

And he contiued to serve after he got out.. gathering intelligence....

And he did make a real good patsy for those who wanted to eliminate the Kennedys

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

So,.......uhm,,,,,,Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine.

Food for thought.

And this guy is a Marine, & this guy was a decorated soldier.

What's your point because it doesn't seem to have context to the topic?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying