An Atheist Speaks

[georgerussia 0]

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If you knew God existed, what would you change?

I would change a lot.
First, I'd need to understand its relationship to me. I could perfectly assume a situation where some kind of superdeity cares only about Pluto, and doesn't give a shit about what happens on Earth.

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Why would you need proof of his non-existance?

I don't.
I need proof of his existence. If this proof is absent - non-existense is assumed by default.
Otherwise you must as well assume there is an invisible HuttoButto which will eat up your soul if you don't drink at least a bottle of beer a day. After all, do you have any proof that HuttoButto does NOT exist? Do you have any proof that Santa Claus does not exist?

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People who seek God seek something greater than themselves and they do it for a reason. Healing, answers, refuge, love...I mean the list goes on and on.

It is irrelevant.
Nobody says you should not seek God, and if you find one you like (some find Zeus, some Odin, some Jehova, some Budda) - that's good. Personally I only get concerned when someone who believes he found God tries to share his findings with the rest of us, usually in a forcible way like trying to force everyone to study his God in school.

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But what do people seek when trying to convince themselves he isnt real?

They do not. Ask yourself, how many hours have you spent trying to convince yourself that Santa Claus is not real? Same with us. Why is it so hard to understand?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[JackC 0]

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This statement is messed up. The degree of entropy in a black hole is extremely low ( highest degree of order). As plasma is extruded form the bipolar jets, the entropy of matter in those jets increases ( becomes less ordered), and so will continue, as the rest of the universe, until it reaches its highest state of entropy(disorder).

Black holes have entropy, and that entropy increases as matter is absorbed into it. For a given volume, black holes have the maximum possible entropy. The entropy can be calculated precisely by:

S = (pi·k·A·c^3)/(2·G·h)

where S is the entropy of the black hole,
k is Boltzmann's constant,
A is the surface area of the black hole,
c is the speed of light,
G is the gravitational constant,
and h is Planck's constant

Thus highlightling the problem of thinking disorder=entropy. Pop-science fails again.

[georgerussia 0]

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MY REPLY..."The good works are not good things that we recieve as much as they are good things that we give" It is possible to give and recieve things that are not material.

You missed your earlier quote, which said: "If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer. "

So I assumed that those "good works" are somehow visible, and benefit those who places their faith. Now, according to you, it does not benefits the believers in any visible way, and therefore you cannot state that if the object of ones faith is true it will produce anything which could be measured, therefore proving the existence of the object of faith.

Note that the question is NOT whether this "object of faith exists and produces something, which makes us happy". The question is that we need to see what's produced, and link it with this "object of faith" to make sure it exists. Maybe I didn't make myself clear in previous reply; hope now it's easier to understand my point.

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A man does not have faith because he gives, give all you want (and I encourage you no matter what faith or non faith you are) repentance is the only way to faith with regards to the Gospel...

I completely missed your point here.

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I was trying to show you that suffering is a part of life, I wish it wasnt, but that in the Gospel God shows his compassion for those who had it bad while on earth by giving them comfort and ease for eternity in Heaven. You really should fear God at some point.

I completely missed your point here as well. You seems to be talking to yourself now.

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This I really dont get. Why would you even say this?? It doesnt make any sense.

No, it does.
If you cured blindness, walked over water and then made a claim like that, it would make sense - you already proved things. What happens now is I'm trying to find a way for you to prove your point, and you are trying to find another way why you cannot prove your point. However at the same time you still think your point is valid, which is kinda amusing.

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It seems you may have taken offense to me calling you friend.

No.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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If you knew God existed, what would you change?

I would change a lot.
First, I'd need to understand its relationship to me.

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Why would you need proof of his non-existance?

I don't.
I need proof of his existence. If this proof is absent - non-existense is assumed by default. Otherwise you must as well assume there is an invisible HuttoButto which will eat up your soul if you don't drink at least a bottle of beer a day. After all, do you have any proof that HuttoButto does NOT exist? Do you have any proof that Santa Claus does not exist?

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People who seek God seek something greater than themselves and they do it for a reason. Healing, answers, refuge, love...I mean the list goes on and on.

It is irrelevant.
Nobody says you should not seek God, and if you find one you like (some find Zeus, some Odin, some Jehova, some Budda) - that's good. Personally I only get concerned when someone who believes he found God tries to share his findings with the rest of us, usually in a forcible way like trying to force everyone to study his God in school.

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But what do people seek when trying to convince themselves he isnt real?

They do not. Ask yourself, how many hours have you spent trying to convince yourself that Santa Claus is not real? Same with us. Why is it so hard to understand?

If anyone is serious about seeking the existance of God and has not read the Gospel, then he is not serious enough. But again, no one seeks God unless they are looking for something greater than themselves.

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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His relationship is Father. He created you and loves you.

That what you say. It might not be true though; you might be mistaken, or even lying. Obviously I'll need much more proof beyond someone's words.

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This is just a theory. So far I have never heard about atheists going to church to tell the people that the God does not exist. I, however, have personally seen several prophets (from different confessions) coming to my home, workplace, military unit, whatever to tell us about God and how it loves us. During my whole life I have never seen any atheist ringing the bell to ask me whether I know that the God does not exist. I, however, just in 2008 have met two Christians who came to my home to share their findings with me. I know several religious holidays, and know no atheist holidays. Maybe you had different experience?

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Im sorry, I believe it is easier to believe that God isnt real, its more convenient to believe we are not accountable for our actions.

Hold on, this is not what I asked. Please answer how many hours you spent trying to convince yourself Santa Claus does not exist? Then we could discuss what seems to be another round of Christianity bullshit of how Christians are more accountable, have higher morale and are holier-than-thou in general.

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Im afraid you may think that faith is easy.

It's irrelevant.

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Do you really think that those who found faith in God have not gone through all the questions to the contrary?

I know they did not - because so far I have never seen nobody being able to provide any reasonable answers. "Just accept Jesus" cannot answer any question, and this is basically a typical answer.

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If anyone is serious about seeking the existance of God and has not read the Gospel, then he is not serious enough.

Which God? If I'm serious about seeking the existence of Buddha, Zeus, Odin or Allah Almighty, why should I read Gospels? You don't think any of them is real? But could you prove it?

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But again, no one seeks God unless they are looking for something greater than themselves.

Oh my God is bigger than yours!

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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A man does not have faith because he gives, give all you want (and I encourage you no matter what faith or non faith you are) repentance is the only way to faith with regards to the Gospel...

I completely missed your point here.




No, it does.
If you cured blindness, walked over water and then made a claim like that, it would make sense - you already proved things. What happens now is I'm trying to find a way for you to prove your point, and you are trying to find another way why you cannot prove your point. However at the same time you still think your point is valid, which is kinda amusing.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jakee 1,500]

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If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer.

What a pointless truism!

If you define 'true faith' as faith which produces good works of great value then of course 'true faith' will always produce good works of great value. Problem is, you're deliberately ignoring all the people out there who believe as devoutly as you do in the same book as you do who are still tossers/criminals/depressed etc.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[georgerussia 0]

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I understand. Many people believe that they are righteous and good because they give or do good things. The Gospel tells us that none of us are good, we cant give our way into Heaven, that it is only through faith in grace (Gods love for us).

You still didn't understand.
I'm talking about how could you prove God exist, not what Gospel tells us.
That's why I said that I cannot see your point - i.e. what point did you try to make by writing that. Before discussing the way to enter Heaven, I'd like to see a proof there is Heaven.

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Im sorry, really I am. Your sort of hard to follow. You want proof that God is compassionate and just?

No, I don't. I need a proof the God you believe in exists. Only then it would make any sense to discuss whether it's compassionate or not.

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But you wont even do one simple little thing. Repent and accept Jesus as savior, that is the only way you will find "proof".

I cannot. Allah, Buddha, Odin and Zeus gonna kill me.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Hold on, this is not what I asked. Please answer how many hours you spent trying to convince yourself Santa Claus does not exist? Then we could discuss what seems to be another round of Christianity bullshit of how Christians are more accountable, have higher morale and are holier-than-thou in general.

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If anyone is serious about seeking the existance of God and has not read the Gospel, then he is not serious enough.

Which God? If I'm serious about seeking the existence of Buddha, Zeus, Odin or Allah Almighty, why should I read Gospels? You don't think any of them is real? But could you prove it?

"We didn't start the fire"

[Royd 0]

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Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different.

Yeah it does. The atheist gets in a huff when the person says God bless you.

[jcd11235 0]

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In other words, naturalism requires faith, too.

Quite the opposite is true. Science does not claim to know the answer. They only offer plausible explanations based on available evidence. Typically, the more evidence that is available, the more probable the explanation is correct. No faith required.

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I don't have enough faith to be an atheist... or a naturalist.

None needed.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[maadmax 0]

Are you sure? Then you should be able to take Billvon's challenge - jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Make it public, invite a lot of scientists, press and whatever - it will make obvious for any of those damn atheists that the God exists. Since it never failed you, you should be pretty comfortable with this.

So where and when could we see it.***

You may be interested in knowing the same offer was made to someone much more important than myself. I will use His answer. " You shall not tempt the Lord your God".

_______________________________________

[maadmax 0]

If you define 'true faith' as faith which produces good works of great value then of course 'true faith' will always produce good works of great value. Problem is, you're deliberately ignoring all the people out there who believe as devoutly as you do in the same book as you do who are still tossers/criminals/depressed etc.***

Your are right for once or maybe twice. All I
can say is thank God it is not my job to judge them.

_______________________________________

[jumpin_Jan 1]

Here is my thimblefull of fuel to the fire.


Logic and debate has been well defined for many moons.

Logic links:
for Atheists/Agnostics
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
for the Faithful
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html

Regarding science, proof, and definitions:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

I doubt this will persuade the faithful but it may help them understand what's required to persuade the atheists.

Question for those who think some book is/was dictated from god.
How do you choose which out of the conflicting books to place your faith in?

I relate to my reality not by what God is but by what he is _NOT_.
I am not God so I make an effort to limit my use of the word "SHOULD".


PULL!
jumpin_Jan

Dangerous toys are fun, but ya could get hurt -- Vash The Stampede

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[rynodigsmusic 0]

I doubt this will persuade the faithful...

[likearock 2]

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Or is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?

Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?

[jumpin_Jan 1]

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I doubt this will persuade the faithful...
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>Did you ever wonder why that is?

I used to wonder, I do not any more.

>Or is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?

I think some are closed minded.
I think some are fools.
I think some are ignorant.
I think some are populists.
Some are 'all of the above' IMneverHO and some 'none of the above'.

>Surely you have actually read the Gospel?

Nope!

My question addressed how you chose your faith as the 'correct' one.
Did you make your choice without study of other faiths?
If you did,,,
What if some other faith is the 'correct' one?
What if those of some other faith feel the 'real love' and it is more powerful?
I would hazard a guess that those of other faiths have as strong of a conviction in their faith as you do in yours.
Are they non-listening, non-searching, fools? (in your opinion)

I DID/DO listen, I DO search, and you are invited to think of me as a fool.

>I am curious to know why you believe those who live by faith do not live in reality?

My reality relies on demonstrable repeatable facts.
I do not expect or demand you share my views.

>The truth is that you dont know whether he is real or not, so why would you be so faithful to him not being real?

The truth is that you do not know what I 'know'.
I consider your claim of said knowlege projection of your views on my opinion.

>Those who find faith have been convinced, that doesnt necessarily mean they are foolish.
I agree.


What puzzles me is why,
when an atheist or agnostic clearly states what they require in the way of proof,
that some of the faithful (predominately Christians on English speaking forums)
ignore those statements regarding rules of debate.

Witnessing seems not to get any traction yet that is typically what is offered.

I'm happy that you have found what works for you.
My reality works for me.

Fair enough?


PULL!
jumpin_Jan

Dangerous toys are fun, but ya could get hurt -- Vash The Stampede

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Or is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?

Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?

Science will never be greater than love.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jcd11235 0]

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Science will never be greater than love.

And apples will always taste better than yellow.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[likearock 2]

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Or is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?

Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?

Science will never be greater than love.

Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love".

[beowulf 1]

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Science will never be greater than love.

I think this is your most senseless statement to date.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I doubt this will persuade the faithful...
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>Did you ever wonder why that is?

I used to wonder, I do not any more.

>Or is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?

I think some are closed minded.
I think some are fools.
I think some are ignorant.
I think some are populists.
Some are 'all of the above' IMneverHO and some 'none of the above'.

>Surely you have actually read the Gospel?

Nope!

My question addressed how you chose your faith as the 'correct' one.

>>>>
Did you make your choice without study of other faiths?

>>>>
If you did,,,
What if some other faith is the 'correct' one?

>>>>
What if those of some other faith feel the 'real love' and it is more powerful?

>>>>
I would hazard a guess that those of other faiths have as strong of a conviction in their faith as you do in yours.

>>>>
Are they non-listening, non-searching, fools? (in your opinion)

>>>>
I DID/DO listen, I DO search, and you are invited to think of me as a fool.

>>>>
>I am curious to know why you believe those who live by faith do not live in reality?

My reality relies on demonstrable repeatable facts.
I do not expect or demand you share my views.

>>>>
>The truth is that you dont know whether he is real or not, so why would you be so faithful to him not being real?

The truth is that you do not know what I 'know'.
I consider your claim of said knowlege projection of your views on my opinion.

>>>>
>Those who find faith have been convinced, that doesnt necessarily mean they are foolish.
I agree.


What puzzles me is why,
when an atheist or agnostic clearly states what they require in the way of proof,
that some of the faithful (predominately Christians on English speaking forums)
ignore those statements regarding rules of debate.

>>>>
Witnessing seems not to get any traction yet that is typically what is offered.

I'm happy that you have found what works for you.
My reality works for me.

Fair enough?

>>>>

PULL!
jumpin_Jan

Dangerous toys are fun, but ya could get hurt -- Vash The Stampede

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Or is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?

Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?

Science will never be greater than love.

Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love".

Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow, how does this have anything to do with love? Meaning, how do you conclude that I think that way just because I said science will never be greater than love. You can have faith in things besides love and truth. These times are getting so bad, they are going to get much worse, and because of things like this happening, many people will begin to hate God and not the spirit of evil which uses deceptions just like this. These people believed their faith to be greater than what it was. Deception.

"We didn't start the fire"

[maadmax 0]

Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love".***

Tragic story, easy explanation. The object of their faith was false. Therefore their faith became worthless and led them to a horrible conclusion. Faith is nothing by its self, it is just a bridge connecting to a higher state of consciousness. When the bridge is connected to something that is True and good, faith produces its desired goal.

________________________________________

[jcd11235 0]

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Science will never be greater than love.

Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow …

That was my point. One can't compare the flavor of a fruit to a color. Nor can one compare a process (science) to an emotion (love). They are both non-sensical comparisons.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!