An Atheist Speaks

[jcd11235 0]

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Why is it easier to dislike a Christian than it is to dislike a bhuddist monk? Both could be treating you the exact same, with tenderness and compassion, but one follows Jesus, the other Bhudda.

Christianity is a recruiting religion; they (largely, but not absolutely) seem compelled to try to convert others to their beliefs. Christianity is not an alien concept to non-Christians. They know where the can find a Christian church of most any denomination. They know where they can find nearly any translation of the Bible they might want to read. In fact many of them have read one or more of them, partially or completely, one or more times. Generally, these non-Christians don't like being verbally assaulted with a Christian recruiting spiel.

Buddhists, on the other hand, don't typically try to convert anyone. Nor do they worship a deity. They don't follow Buddha, they follow the eight-fold path he established (like Jesus, there is doubt as to whether a historical Buddha actually existed). They seek a quiet mind, a beginner's mind.

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[Lindsey 0]

Why is it easier to dislike a Christian than it is to dislike a bhuddist monk? Both could be treating you the exact same, with tenderness and compassion, but one follows Jesus, the other Bhudda.

It's not because of their beliefs that people get annoyed with so many Christians. It's their incessant attempts to convince people who are comfortable in their own beliefs that there is only one way to salvation....blah, blah, blah. I'd bet you that there are more than a handful of people on these forums who follow Buddhist teachings, and who are secure in their spiritual lives, who are conspicuously silent when the Christians get started about "faith." Buddhists don't try to convince me that his way is the right way. He does what's right for him and recognizes that others are just as capable of figuring the same out for themselves.

:)
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[maadmax 0]

So basically by this you are saying that your beliefs are not different from theirs, and although you think you follow true teachings of Jesus, you acknowledge you might be just deceived, and will end up in Hell because of that. Thus there is no real reason even to try to follow any teachings of Jesus - the chance you're deceived is too high, and not worth it.***

Not Exactly. I know you are more interested in provoking than having a meaningful discussion but you just might be closer than you think to uncovering the Truth. Hell is not an issue since we are saved by faith in Christ and not of our own works. Once you have received Gods gift you will always have it. As far as uncovering the mysteries of Gods Word, Yes I always question myself and am ready at an instant to replace a mistaken concept with one that might be closer to what God has in mind. Similar to information science continually uncovers. I have replaced believed concepts in both arenas many times.

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[rynodigsmusic 0]

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You need to slow down, take a breath, and listen. I would not say that you believed in the Iraq war just because you are American.

The question was, how was what that family believed different from what you believe? Iraq was is completely irrelevant.

--I dont know why you dont understand that. If I am a German during world war 2, does that mean that I am a nazi and fully engaged in belief of thier rhetoric?

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Those who do things in the name of others do not necessarily know the person. There are many people in the Church that are being led astray from the true teachings of Jesus. This was already prophesied by Jesus himself 2000 yrs ago.

But we just got to conclusion that nobody could be sure they are following true teaching of Jesus. You said it yourself that humans can be easily deceived, and you say it yourself that you cannot test the God, and therefore there is no reliable way to test whether you follow true teaching or not.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Why is it easier to dislike a Christian than it is to dislike a bhuddist monk? Both could be treating you the exact same, with tenderness and compassion, but one follows Jesus, the other Bhudda.

Christianity is a recruiting religion; they (largely, but not absolutely) seem compelled to try to convert others to their beliefs. Christianity is not an alien concept to non-Christians. They know where the can find a Christian church of most any denomination. They know where they can find nearly any translation of the Bible they might want to read. In fact many of them have read one or more of them, partially or completely, one or more times. Generally, these non-Christians don't like being verbally assaulted with a Christian recruiting spiel.

Buddhists, on the other hand, don't typically try to convert anyone. Nor do they worship a deity. They don't follow Buddha, they follow the eight-fold path he established

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--You would agree that if someone established something and I follow it, that I follow them as well yes? Since when did it become ok to dismiss the existance of the establisher?

(like Jesus, there is doubt as to whether a historical Buddha actually existed). They seek a quiet mind, a beginner's mind.

--I understand. You like Christians less because of their "recruiting" process. You dont see it as sharing though? Are you recruiting cosmologists, or are you just sharing what you have learned?

"We didn't start the fire"

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[Royd 0]

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You flatter yourself. You are not telling me anything I didn't hear 50 years ago. I spent 12 years in schools where we had a daily dose of religious mumbo-jumbo. I even believed it for a while. Then I realized it was all man-made BS with not one shred of evidence to support it. Talk about a house of cards.

It must be put together with Gorilla Glue.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Why is it easier to dislike a Christian than it is to dislike a bhuddist monk? Both could be treating you the exact same, with tenderness and compassion, but one follows Jesus, the other Bhudda.

It's not because of their beliefs that people get annoyed with so many Christians. It's their incessant attempts to convince people who are comfortable in their own beliefs that there is only one way to salvation....blah, blah, blah. I'd bet you that there are more than a handful of people on these forums who follow Buddhist teachings, and who are secure in their spiritual lives, who are conspicuously silent when the Christians get started about "faith." Buddhists don't try to convince me that his way is the right way. He does what's right for him and recognizes that others are just as capable of figuring the same out for themselves.

:)
linz

There clearly is a difference in the spiritual foundation of both, as well there would be. Yet the fundamental difference that I found with bhuddaism and Christianity is that Bhudda was enlightend to life under the bohdi tree, Jesus is life. Jesus performed miracles including raising a man from the dead, Bhudda did no miracles. Bhudda talks nothing about heaven, hell, sin, satan and Jesus does. There is something spiritualy truthful about the teachings of both, yet Jesus is the only one who was sacraficed for the sin of all mankind. There are interesting references to the "province of aisia" in the new testament. It is perfectly ok to disagree, we know this right? I dont believe that disagreements should escalate into anger, but they do, they even escalate into rage. Anyone who follows Christ is not trying to convince anyone, but to ensure that they know the way to salvation in Christ is through repentance and acceptance of the Holy Spirit.

You have to understand that those who love Jesus, love him from the heart. If you have someone you love in this world and they were to give their life for you, your words would have conviction as well. If someone else came to tell you no it didnt happen like that, or no, it wasnt your loved one, it was someone else, I belieive you would at least address the errors.

When people are in love, they want to share it with others, its just the nature of love.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jcd11235 0]

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You would agree that if someone established something and I follow it, that I follow them as well yes?

I would not agree with that.

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Since when did it become ok to dismiss the existance of the establisher?

Why would it be necessary?

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I understand. You like Christians less because of their "recruiting" process.

I dislike such actions. I can see how that could be perceived as disliking them.

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You dont see it as sharing though?

No, I think "verbal assault" more accurately described how I perceive it.

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Are you recruiting cosmologists, or are you just sharing what you have learned?

Not at all. But when someone makes a claim for which there is scientific evidence to the contrary, I have no problem bringing up that evidence.

On the other hand, what we need more of is science, so if I inadvertently motivate someone to study science, then all the better.

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[jcd11235 0]

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There clearly is a difference in the spiritual foundation of both, as well there would be. Yet the fundamental difference that I found with bhuddaism and Christianity is that Bhudda was enlightend to life under the bohdi tree, Jesus is life. Jesus performed miracles including raising a man from the dead, Bhudda did no miracles. Bhudda talks nothing about heaven, hell, sin, satan and Jesus does.

Sorry, but this keeps bugging me:

It's not Bhudda it's Buddha. It's not bhuddaism, it's Buddhism. And, it's not bohdi tree, it's Bodhi tree.

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[rynodigsmusic 0]

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You would agree that if someone established something and I follow it, that I follow them as well yes?

I would not agree with that.

--Understood. I may have worded that improperly, but nonetheless, if I follow someone they are still in front of me right?

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Since when did it become ok to dismiss the existance of the establisher?

Why would it be necessary?

--It wouldnt be necessary to dismiss the establisher, to me it is about honor. It seems sort of wrong to take something from someone and not recognize at least their efforts and works. While, yours may exceed them, they inspired you to get there. (Im not being argumentative, just clarifying my point)

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I understand. You like Christians less because of their "recruiting" process.

I dislike such actions. I can see how that could be perceived as disliking them.

--Sorry, I may have worded that improperly as well. It is wrong for me to assume you dont like the man, just because you dont like what he is saying. But, you would agree that many others do right?

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You dont see it as sharing though?

No, I think "verbal assault" more accurately described how I perceive it.

--Wow, that is a pretty stong testiment to your perception isnt it? Either that, or you have met some very bold Christians.

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Are you recruiting cosmologists, or are you just sharing what you have learned?

Not at all. But when someone makes a claim for which there is scientific evidence to the contrary, I have no problem bringing up that evidence.

--Of course you dont!

On the other hand, what we need more of is science, so if I inadvertently motivate someone to study science, then all the better.

--Science is responsible for the atom bomb right? Many bilogical chemicals used in war? The very thing you believe we need more of is also responsible for holding the destruction of the world in the hand of man. I think we will both concede that their are scientists with evil motivation as well as religions with evil motivation. There are scientists with good motivation and religions with good motivations. There is a need not just for science, but for spirituality as well. Even if science finds the answers to what it is looking for, there will always be a need to keep its motives good. Man needs love more than anything.

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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Not Exactly. I know you are more interested in provoking than having a meaningful discussion but you just might be closer than you think to uncovering the Truth.

It's nice that you are trying to blame ME for a meaningful discussion, when in fact it's the opponent who was asked a simple question, and replied with a statement regarding Iraq...

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Hell is not an issue since we are saved by faith in Christ and not of our own works. Once you have received Gods gift you will always have it.

You should have read the posts sequence, since you're entering the loop again. We have a family, which definitely had more faith in Christ than most people around - they trusted Christ with the life of their child. It has been discussed before, and it was claimed by the opponent that the family in question was deceived. Same could happen to you - you think you accepted Jesus, while in fact you might be accepting Satan, who made you believe you accepted Jesus. Therefore you are not saved. Ever thought about it?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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--I dont know why you dont understand that. If I am a German during world war 2, does that mean that I am a nazi and fully engaged in belief of thier rhetoric?

Why is it so difficult? The question was not about Iraq, nor it was about German during WWII. The question was, how was what that family believed different from what you believe. Are you saying it's not possible for you to answer it without irrelevant references?

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Just by you saying this, it proves my point about deception. Stop trying to listen only to what you want to hear, listen instead to what is being said.

I am listening to what you are saying. Probably you need to go back and check what you said yourself.

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And please stop accusing me of making the same decision as that family.

You already did it.

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Jumping off a cliff and asking God to save you, is not asking for mercy, its putting him to the test. Walking past someone who is in need is not right.

This is a typical example of Christian deceitfulness.
If you are sick, and praying to get healthy, but still die - Christians will tell you that you were putting God to test, and therefore this result is expected.
However if you are sick, and praying to get healthy, and you got better - Christians will use it as example the prayer works, and therefore God exist.

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If I watch a diabetic girl die when I know that modern medicine can save her, and I pray that God would save her, I am putting God to the test, its not asking for mercy.

So praying to get out of illness is putting God to test. Praying to have some food for your family, or to protect your family members from crime is also putting God to the test. Most other things people are praying for are also putting God to test. What do you need your God for then?

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I have already explained to you and you still have not heard. You are only listening for what you want to hear. I am not "basically saying" anything. I have told you very plainly.

Well, when you have several people (not only me!) telling you that you basically did not reply the question at all, maybe the one should guess that the reason might be not that everyone else doesn't want to listen, but because the one cannot explain it meaningfully? What do you think?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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There clearly is a difference in the spiritual foundation of both, as well there would be. Yet the fundamental difference that I found with bhuddaism and Christianity is that Bhudda was enlightend to life under the bohdi tree, Jesus is life. Jesus performed miracles including raising a man from the dead, Bhudda did no miracles. Bhudda talks nothing about heaven, hell, sin, satan and Jesus does.

Sorry, but this keeps bugging me:

It's not Bhudda it's Buddha. It's not bhuddaism, it's Buddhism. And, it's not bohdi tree, it's Bodhi tree.

Sorry about that! I can see how that would be considered disrespectful, very sorry.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jcd11235 0]

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I follow someone they are still in front of me right?

If you literally follow them, then yes, they are right in front of you. Buddhists do not follow the Buddha. They seek what he sought. They did not deify him, and they do not worship him.

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Since when did it become ok to dismiss the existance of the establisher?

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It wouldnt be necessary to dismiss the establisher, to me it is about honor. It seems sort of wrong to take something from someone and not recognize at least their efforts and works. While, yours may exceed them, they inspired you to get there.

Buddhists don't dismiss the Buddha. They simply don't worship him.

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But, you would agree that many others do right?

Yes, many others do right. Also, many others do wrong. Often they are the same people and the same actions.

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Wow, that is a pretty stong testiment to your perception isnt it? Either that, or you have met some very bold Christians.

Both.

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Science is responsible for the atom bomb right?

That which can be used for good, can also be used for bad.

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Man needs love more than anything.

Perhaps, but that has zero to do with science or religion. One doesn't need religion to experience love, nor does one need an understanding of science to experience love.

On the other hand, love falls short sometimes. Love didn't get us to the moon. Love doesn't cure disease. Love didn't pave the way for the internet. Science did these things.

What can religion do that love cannot?

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[georgerussia 0]

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Jesus performed miracles including raising a man from the dead, Bhudda did no miracles.

Why does he need miracles? Jesus needed it because he was recruiting (and that's what his followers were doing). Bhudda did not.

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Bhudda talks nothing about heaven, hell, sin, satan and Jesus does.

Maybe "Bhudda" (which is in fact Buddha) didn't talk about it just because there is really no heaven, hell sin and satan? Please understand that you do not have any evidence that any of those exist, except some quotes from one old book, which has proven its incredibility and basically cannot be accepted as evidence.

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There is something spiritualy truthful about the teachings of both, yet Jesus is the only one who was sacraficed for the sin of all mankind.

No evidence.

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Anyone who follows Christ is not trying to convince anyone, but to ensure that they know the way to salvation in Christ is through repentance and acceptance of the Holy Spirit.

Bullshit.
There are more than 100 different religions based on the Bible. All of them have different way to salvation in Christ. There is no "the way", because even all Christians cannot agree on small things which make a difference. "The way" for Jehova Witnesses is different than "the way" for Eastern Orthodoxes - and both of them are Christians.

And your point is meaningless, since in modern society EVERYONE already knows about Christ. And they know where they need to go if they want to learn more. The real reason is competiton.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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--I dont know why you dont understand that. If I am a German during world war 2, does that mean that I am a nazi and fully engaged in belief of thier rhetoric?

Why is it so difficult? The question was not about Iraq, nor it was about German during WWII. The question was, how was what that family believed different from what you believe. Are you saying it's not possible for you to answer it without irrelevant references?

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---Please forgive me, but Im not going to answer this anymore.

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Just by you saying this, it proves my point about deception. Stop trying to listen only to what you want to hear, listen instead to what is being said.

I am listening to what you are saying. Probably you need to go back and check what you said yourself.

------You are allowing yourself to be decieved by your own motive. Which, is, you sincerely believe I believe that what that family did was right. No matter what I tell you, you will always believe this, until you change the motive in your heart. You sincerely believe (against everything I have already told you) that everyone who follows Jesus, is told to respond in the same way, so your perception is blind to everything that I have said. I have told you several times now, in many different posts. I have been patient with you and have clarified what I said in plain english. Please understand, you are not listening and if I continue to explain, I am only going to get more of these until your motive is satisfied by what it wants to hear.

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And please stop accusing me of making the same decision as that family.

You already did it.

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Jumping off a cliff and asking God to save you, is not asking for mercy, its putting him to the test. Walking past someone who is in need is not right.

This is a typical example of Christian deceitfulness.
If you are sick, and praying to get healthy, but still die - Christians will tell you that you were putting God to test, and therefore this result is expected.
However if you are sick, and praying to get healthy, and you got better - Christians will use it as example the prayer works, and therefore God exist.

------I dont know what else to say to you, if we are decieved, we are completely decieved into learning how to love one another. You must hold yourself upon a pretty high pedestal? Christians believe in the will of God. If he wants to do something, he will, if not, he wont. Forgive me, it sounds like, by what you say and how you say it, Christians are deceptive and wicked and just trying to convince everyone that the hell they live in is the right way, as we testify only to lies and things that have not actually happened to us, just so that we can seem right to everyone. Is this similar to your perception? What is so wrong with having a hope that is strengthened by a indescribable love recieved from faith in a man who gave his life for the glory of that love?

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If I watch a diabetic girl die when I know that modern medicine can save her, and I pray that God would save her, I am putting God to the test, its not asking for mercy.

So praying to get out of illness is putting God to test. Praying to have some food for your family, or to protect your family members from crime is also putting God to the test. Most other things people are praying for are also putting God to test. What do you need your God for then?

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I have already explained to you and you still have not heard. You are only listening for what you want to hear. I am not "basically saying" anything. I have told you very plainly.

Well, when you have several people (not only me!) telling you that you basically did not reply the question at all, maybe the one should guess that the reason might be not that everyone else doesn't want to listen, but because the one cannot explain it meaningfully? What do you think?

-----What would you like me to say? Tell me exactly what you want me to say..... That is the only thing you are listening for anyway.

"We didn't start the fire"

[maadmax 0]

the family in question was deceived. Same could happen to you - you think you accepted Jesus, while in fact you might be accepting Satan, who made you believe you accepted Jesus. Therefore you are not saved. Ever thought about it.***

If deception occurred, the deceived is responsible for their deception as in all other areas of life. If your are indeed trying to have a meaningful discussion, you have an odd way about it. If you are still confused about the way of salvation, pray about it. If you are sincere and not just trying to be provocative, God will reveal it to you. Otherwise, if you know something we don't, please tell us.

[Shotgun 1]

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Man needs love more than anything.

Actually, man needs air to breathe more than anything. And after that, water and food, and a few other things. Without those basic needs, love won't do anyone much good.

(Sorry, just being a smart-ass. )

[kallend 2,030]

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What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. ....

Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc.

When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault.

Even after everything we are telling you, you still dont understand...Maybe its mans fault??

You flatter yourself. You are not telling me anything I didn't hear 50 years ago. I spent 12 years in schools where we had a daily dose of religious mumbo-jumbo. I even believed it for a while. Then I realized it was all man-made BS with not one shred of evidence to support it. Talk about a house of cards.

[Lindsey 0]

Well, biologically speaking you're right. But I think that falls within the realm of science. LOVE, on the other hand, is a spiritual matter, and greater than science. Maybe if you love enough, you won't need food and water??? But maybe that's kind of what that other family was thinking....you know, the one with the kid who died anyway.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Shotgun 1]

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The question was, how was what that family believed different from what you believe.

My guess is that rynodigsmusic would take his child to the doctor if the child was sick, rather than relying on only prayer, and that is how his beliefs are different from that family's beliefs.(???)

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I follow someone they are still in front of me right?

If you literally follow them, then yes, they are right in front of you. Buddhists do not follow the Buddha. They seek what he sought. They did not deify him, and they do not worship him.

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----Jesus told his disciples to worship God in spirit and truth. Forgive me, but your concept of worship is obscured a bit by modern day religion. People worship Jesus because they love him and it brings them joy amongst other things. Your getting into areas of things you may not know about, but are trying to sound like you do. That is what is sounds like. Buddha is honored by buddhist. What he taught is the fundamental foundation of buddhism. But tell me more about him maybe not even existing? This is what you have been talking about all along. You seem to need evidence even to believe in what he said is truthful, becuase if he didnt exist, then neither did his wisdom. Otherwise, you take the buddhas teachings, make them your own, and dismiss the buddha himself. The same is with Jesus. Because you cant prove his existance and his sacrafice, you dismiss his teachings, yet, many people still use his teachings as a strong foundation for loving one another, while dismissing (and therefore dishonoring) Jesus himself.

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Since when did it become ok to dismiss the existance of the establisher?

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It wouldnt be necessary to dismiss the establisher, to me it is about honor. It seems sort of wrong to take something from someone and not recognize at least their efforts and works. While, yours may exceed them, they inspired you to get there.

Buddhists don't dismiss the Buddha. They simply don't worship him.

----I would like to know what your idea of worship is?

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But, you would agree that many others do right?

Yes, many others do right. Also, many others do wrong. Often they are the same people and the same actions.

----I meant others do, right? It was a question, sorry about the missing comma.

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Wow, that is a pretty stong testiment to your perception isnt it? Either that, or you have met some very bold Christians.

Both.

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Science is responsible for the atom bomb right?

That which can be used for good, can also be used for bad.

----thats exactly what I said in the last post.

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Man needs love more than anything.

Perhaps, but that has zero to do with science or religion. One doesn't need religion to experience love, nor does one need an understanding of science to experience love.

----Thats understandable, but again I told you that I believe love is limitless, I know you disagree, spirituality helps us recieve more. A man has to believe in love to recieve it, he has to let it in. If you limit love, you limit the heart of the man and the love that can be recieved. Also, your understanding of "religion" is also obscured a bit. God is spirit, anyone who seeks God seeks the spirit, it is spirit that holds the truth, not religion.

On the other hand, love falls short sometimes. Love didn't get us to the moon. Love doesn't cure disease. Love didn't pave the way for the internet. Science did these things.

What can religion do that love cannot?

----What you need to say, is "what can the spirit do that love cannot"? Then you would see the truth, that love is spirit and the spirit is life. It always was the spirit before religion, religion never came first, but in many churches today, it seems you can find the exact opposite. When you receive the love of someone who died for you, so that you would have life to the fullest, then you can tell me if love is limited or not. True love, hungers passionately, it is never filled but always satisfied...the hunger itself is indescribably joyful.

"We didn't start the fire"

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[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Man needs love more than anything.

Actually, man needs air to breathe more than anything. And after that, water and food, and a few other things. Without those basic needs, love won't do anyone much good.

(Sorry, just being a smart-ass. )

Its ok, I thought it was funny!!!

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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Please forgive me, but Im not going to answer this anymore.

And you have never answered it.

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You are allowing yourself to be decieved by your own motive.

I cannot be deceived, since I do not believe in Jesus. There is no reason for Satan to deceive me from Jesus, as I'm not looking for Jesus.

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Which, is, you sincerely believe I believe that what that family did was right.

Which is not the case. The question asked was completely different.

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No matter what I tell you, you will always believe this, until you change the motive in your heart.

There is no reason to change anything just because you cannot answer a simple question. Believe me, you're not the first Christian I'm debating with, and you guys basically all talk the same way. Know what? I was _sure_ you would not answer this question.

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You sincerely believe (against everything I have already told you) that everyone who follows Jesus, is told to respond in the same way, so your perception is blind to everything that I have said.

I do not believe in this. The question actually focused on the fact the family - like you - was sure they follow Jesus. And it ends like they did not.

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I have told you several times now, in many different posts. I have been patient with you and have clarified what I said in plain english. Please understand, you are not listening and if I continue to explain, I am only going to get more of these until your motive is satisfied by what it wants to hear.

There is no reason to repeat a sermon ten times. The reason is not that we cannot understand what you say. The reason is that what you say doesn't answer the question, and this has been made pretty obvious.

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I dont know what else to say to you, if we are decieved, we are completely decieved into learning how to love one another. You must hold yourself upon a pretty high pedestal?

I'll repeat my statement in case someone would think you really answered it:

This is a typical example of Christian deceitfulness.
If you are sick, and praying to get healthy, but still die - Christians will tell you that you were putting God to test, and therefore this result is expected.
However if you are sick, and praying to get healthy, and you got better - Christians will use it as example the prayer works, and therefore God exist.

and let you think whether your reply is relevant or not.

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Christians believe in the will of God. If he wants to do something, he will, if not, he wont.

So now you're saying that everything depends on the will of the God, and you do not know the will of the God, and therefore nothing is predictable? This way following Jesus and "doing right things" will not lead you to Heaven. Your God might still want to put you in Hell, even though you lived a rightful life. And he could put a child molester into Heaven. Why, you ask? Because that was his will, and the God works in misterious ways.

Basically if you follow "God works in misterious ways" you're saying that there is no reason to follow Christ. After all, you might be saved even if you don't, and you might not be saved even if you do, so why bother?

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Forgive me, it sounds like, by what you say and how you say it, Christians are deceptive and wicked and just trying to convince everyone that the hell they live in is the right way, as we testify only to lies and things that have not actually happened to us, just so that we can seem right to everyone.

Some are, that's true. But even if you're not, you still might be deceived.

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Is this similar to your perception? What is so wrong with having a hope that is strengthened by a indescribable love recieved from faith in a man who gave his life for the glory of that love?

I could tell you what's wrong here. Hope is only good when you do not have anything else. I would not jump an unknown parachute in unknown condition just having a hope that is strengthened by a indescribable love recieved from faith in a man who gave his life for the glory of that love. I would not enter a skyscraper built by someone who built it with just a strengthened hope it won't fall down. The family in question also had a hope, and their hope was strengthened by a indescribable love recieved from faith in Jesus. Their hope failed them, like it failed a lot of people.

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What would you like me to say? Tell me exactly what you want me to say.....

I would like you to just answer the question directly, without involving sermons, Satan and love to Jesus.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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The question was, how was what that family believed different from what you believe.

My guess is that rynodigsmusic would take his child to the doctor if the child was sick, rather than relying on only prayer, and that is how his beliefs are different from that family's beliefs.(???)

Yes, I would take advantage of everything here. I believe that we are all given desires. Some are given desires with gifts to sustain and accomplish the goals of those desires. God is in control of everything. Everything in the universe is of the universe, we are in the universe, therefore, whatever wisdom is within the universe, it would only be natural for us to have a connection of some sort with it. It wasnt until Jesus, that I found that connection. I believe it is love. While I understand this may be a new concept for many people, my desire, which I thank God for daily, is in the spirit. This means that just by the natural progression of my life, people will hear the desire I keep within. I am no more important than anything. My desire found the Gospel and this is what I know.

Others' desires are elsewhere (they could be also in the Gospel), but generally if one has a passion or desire for one thing it is sort of hard to be just as passionate about another. So we focus on what we love, where our passion and desire is. There are those who have a passion for science and medicine, those who have a passion for law enforcement and justice, and yes, those who have a passion for evil (in many different ways) It is clear that the balance has all of this under control. What seems true to me, is that love is the eternal balance of all that is good and evil. Since we all seem to have an internal "good is better" thing, it makes me believe that what we find connection with also believes good is better, but without evil there would be no good. There has to be a balance. What I have found is that evil is very deceptive, thats how it operates, but, that the balance of love also loves evil in ways that we will most likely not understand until we are in the next life. Our desires were given to us by love, that is why love is sought so much. If we try to fill the hunger in love with what is wrong, the balance warns us, either we listen or we do not. But the balance is still in control, in ways that we are very unfamiliar with. In ways that go beyond the human imagination, way beyond. Knowing that, is knowing Gods will (Gods will for Christians is to believe in the one he sent), doing the right thing feels better and puts us in greater energy with what is good in the balance. Use your desires, follow them, give ear to wisdom, follow love. Love is what it is all about. Love is our connection, our strength. I have not found a stronger love than that of Jesus.

The point is no one knows, not you or I, what God has in store for us. There are deep dark tragedys and sustained moments of joy and happiness in the same realm of existance. Trying to understand why is a losing quest. Learning how to accept without blame, disgust, anger, fear, hopelessness, revenge is a foundational setting of peace. There is much more power in peace than just that though. Try to get out of your mind and into the spirit of what is right, good, and loving, while doing what ever your paths desire is leading you to do. Keep an open heart and be prepared everyday for the inevitibility of the darkness. If we prepare for the inevitible, then blame will not have a foothold in our hearts when it comes. There are many things I used to blame God for, now I simply accept and trust. What right do I have to blame something so powerful and perfect? I mean really, who am I??

Sorry about the long winded response

"We didn't start the fire"