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jcd11235 0
QuoteI got your point if you hadnt noticed!! Its just that I never thought of love as only an emotion, I believe it is greater than that and indeed greater than science. Staying alive is great right? But it means nothing without love. Science is limited (as you said it doenst require faith) Love is not limited. The house can perish, but the love it held lives forever.
Apparently you didn't get my point, as you are still trying to compare love to science. (Am I taller or shorter than you weigh?)
Both science and love are limited. They also have different applications. Would you want to cross a bridge designed and built by workers who relied on love, without and understanding of engineering or the underlying science, or a bridge designed by civil engineers and built by professional builders with experience in bridge building?
The child from the link a few posts back received plenty of love from her parents. What she needed was the benefit of medical science. Love can only do so much.
By the same token, to paraphrase Albert Einstein, gravity is not responsible for two people falling in love.
If you wanted to claim that love is the fundamental emotion, that would, perhaps, be a defendable assertion. But love is just that, an emotion. If whatever you're trying to communicate about is more than an emotion, you would be better off using the correct terminology for that whatever, instead of redefining love. That way it would make
By not using generally understood definitions of words, your words lose the value you want them to have, since your audience won't understand what exactly you're talking about.
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QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?
Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?
Science will never be greater than love.
Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love".
Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow, how does this have anything to do with love? Meaning, how do you conclude that I think that way just because I said science will never be greater than love. You can have faith in things besides love and truth. These times are getting so bad, they are going to get much worse, and because of things like this happening, many people will begin to hate God and not the spirit of evil which uses deceptions just like this. These people believed their faith to be greater than what it was. Deception.
What deception are you talking about? Like you, they put faith in Jesus. Like you, they read the Gospel. And like you, they believed that faith was more important than science. If you somehow feel they are different from you, you'll have to be more specific in what that difference is.
>How are you a used to be Christian if you never even read the Gospel?
Simple, I used to believe Christ was a savior.
I was much younger and slightly more ignorant.
I don't even celebrate X-mas any more as I feel that would be hypocritical.
Last I checked God has no literacy requirement.
IMneverHO you reinforce my position at the expense of your own.
Please edit your post to make it clear that your question is seperate from my quoted reply.
PULL!
jumpin_Jan
Dangerous toys are fun, but ya could get hurt -- Vash The Stampede
Simple, I used to believe Christ was a savior.
I was much younger and slightly more ignorant.
I don't even celebrate X-mas any more as I feel that would be hypocritical.
Last I checked God has no literacy requirement.
IMneverHO you reinforce my position at the expense of your own.
Please edit your post to make it clear that your question is seperate from my quoted reply.
PULL!
jumpin_Jan
Dangerous toys are fun, but ya could get hurt -- Vash The Stampede
"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede
QuoteQuoteI got your point if you hadnt noticed!! Its just that I never thought of love as only an emotion, I believe it is greater than that and indeed greater than science. Staying alive is great right? But it means nothing without love. Science is limited (as you said it doenst require faith) Love is not limited. The house can perish, but the love it held lives forever.
Apparently you didn't get my point, as you are still trying to compare love to science. (Am I taller or shorter than you weigh?)
Both science and love are limited. They also have different applications. Would you want to cross a bridge designed and built by workers who relied on love, without and understanding of engineering or the underlying science, or a bridge designed by civil engineers and built by professional builders with experience in bridge building?
The child from the link a few posts back received plenty of love from her parents. What she needed was the benefit of medical science. Love can only do so much.
By the same token, to paraphrase Albert Einstein, gravity is not responsible for two people falling in love.
If you wanted to claim that love is the fundamental emotion, that would, perhaps, be a defendable assertion. But love is just that, an emotion. If whatever you're trying to communicate about is more than an emotion, you would be better off using the correct terminology for that whatever, instead of redefining love. That way it would makemoresense.
By not using generally understood definitions of words, your words lose the value you want them to have, since your audience won't understand what exactly you're talking about.
Im sorry, I strongly disagree with your limit of love reply.
I believe we all can benefit from one another, whether your a scientist or a farmer. I will eat the harvest of wheat just as I will take medicine or surgery from a doctor. Did you know that Luke (One of the Gospel writers) was a Physician? Usually it is the love of something that keeps ones desire alive. If your desire is knowledge and science then you are following your desire....Jesus spoke about why you may have a hard time understanding loves power.
"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children"
I understand your point and I already told you that I dont believe love is purely an emotion. I believe it is spirit, the underlying nature of all that is created. I believe when you gaze into the sunset over the ocean and a beauty is felt within, that both what is felt within AND what is being gazed upon are connected. Whether or not science can tell me what i am feeling and what I am looking at doesnt explain the connection.
"We didn't start the fire"
jcd11235 0
QuoteI understand your point and I already told you that I dont believe love is purely an emotion. I believe it is spirit, the underlying nature of all that is created. I believe when you gaze into the sunset over the ocean and a beauty is felt within, that both what is felt within AND what is being gazed upon are connected.
Yet, your description here implies love is merely an emotion.
How about an example that demonstrates how love can be reasonably compared to science as you were attempting to do?
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QuoteYeah it does. The atheist gets in a huff when the person says God bless you.
I prefer "God blows you".
Haven't heard it for a while though.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
Quote
You may be interested in knowing the same offer was made to someone much more important than myself. I will use His answer. " You shall not tempt the Lord your God".
I understand. Basically, you just said that there is no way you could prove your God exists, since it will be considered "tempting your God".
Thus there is nothing left to talk, since you cannot prove anything you say.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?
Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?
Science will never be greater than love.
Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love".
Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow, how does this have anything to do with love? Meaning, how do you conclude that I think that way just because I said science will never be greater than love. You can have faith in things besides love and truth. These times are getting so bad, they are going to get much worse, and because of things like this happening, many people will begin to hate God and not the spirit of evil which uses deceptions just like this. These people believed their faith to be greater than what it was. Deception.
What deception are you talking about? Like you, they put faith in Jesus. Like you, they read the Gospel. And like you, they believed that faith was more important than science. If you somehow feel they are different from you, you'll have to be more specific in what that difference is.
One characteristic of the fruit of the spirit is humbleness. Only God knows those who have great faith. If I walk around believing myself to have great faith, then I walk around with pride and i dont even know it. Look....
"20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven"
If a man has great faith, he will not put God to the test like that. God is just and full of compassion. He gives us a spirit of discernment between what is right and what is wrong. Humans, are easily decieved. The very nature of deception is that you will not know you are being decieved (that is why it is so important to speak the truth from your heart). You sincerly believe you are right when the whole time you are wrong. I dont blame the family, I blame those who led them astray in the faith to the point that it escalated into this. The same thing happened to the followers of jim jones. Most false prophets do not know they are being bred for destruction (all who preach the Gospel should fear this) The "Deicever" as he is called, works within them to accomplish his goal.
It is going to get much worse, just look around, you can already see it happening. Spiritual discernment is the only way to discern spiritual warfare. Everything Jesus spoke about in regards to treating each other goes against hurting people phisically, mentally, or spiritually. Not helping them, when you clearly can, is hurting them. Those who put faith in Jesus are not necessarily following him.
I never said faith was more important than science. I said "science will never be greater than love" If one has faith but not love, he has nothing at all. I believe that these people may have put more faith in their own faith than in the love and righteousness of God. I believe they were decieved by evil
But, how are you going to handle anything worse than this? Is it all going to be Gods fault? Like when natural disasters, and the wickedness of the world actually comes to your doorstep? At what point would you put the blame aside and believe the prophecy?
"We didn't start the fire"
QuoteQuoteI understand your point and I already told you that I dont believe love is purely an emotion. I believe it is spirit, the underlying nature of all that is created. I believe when you gaze into the sunset over the ocean and a beauty is felt within, that both what is felt within AND what is being gazed upon are connected.
Yet, your description here implies love is merely an emotion.
How about an example that demonstrates how love can be reasonably compared to science as you were attempting to do?
I dont think I said love wasnt an emotion, I said it was more than an emotion. We have the emotion of love to experience love. God works in us through our feelings, emotions, minds, hearts. What I said was that science couldnt explain the connection. What I believe is not what you believe, remember? I believe there is a connection, something that makes a connection with us, not just our own little emotions because we are just emotional people. There is a connection, life, love, heart, mind, earth...something beyond emotions is connecting it all.
Please understand, that I cant show this to you, I cant explain it the way you would understand it. I am nothing, im not wise or smart, im just inspired by the grace of God that I found in Jesus. When the love of Jesus comes into the heart, its in the flow of that love that transforms ones mind.
I believe Im trying to say that love couldnt be compared to science, that it is greater and always will be. I said science is limited and love is not. Forgive me, I have to now go back and see what I wrote. I am far from perfect.
"We didn't start the fire"
Quote
One characteristic of the fruit of the spirit is humbleness.
Has anyone asked about characteristics of fruit?
Does anyone here ever discussed characteristics of fruits?
Why is it so hard to answer a question directly?
Quote
Only God knows those who have great faith. If I walk around believing myself to have great faith, then I walk around with pride and i dont even know it.
"Great faith" is nonsense. If you have faith, it is either true (i.e. the subject of your faith exist), or it is not. It doesn't matter how great it is.
Quote
If a man has great faith, he will not put God to the test like that.
Since when asking God to save your loved one from pain became putting God to the test?
Ok, I see your point now.
If they prayed and she got better - you would tell us it's a proof the God exist, and that "the good always comes to the believer".
And if they pray and she dies - you still see it as a proof the God exists. You just change the message with "they were putting God to the test".
Basically no matter what happens - according to you it will always be proof of God existence. You will only change the message. That is the reason you cannot prove your point to any reasonable person.
Quote
The same thing happened to the followers of jim jones. Most false prophets do not know they are being bred for destruction (all who preach the Gospel should fear this) The "Deicever" as he is called, works within them to accomplish his goal.
Maybe you're the one who has been deceived already. You cannot prove otherwise, since you cannot test your God, and your own perception/opinion could obviously be wrong (since you said that "the very nature of deception is that you will not know you are being decieved"). So how could you be sure you are not?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
Maybe you're the one who has been deceived already. You cannot prove otherwise, since you cannot test your God, and your own perception/opinion could obviously be wrong (since you said that "the very nature of deception is that you will not know you are being decieved"). So how could you be sure you are not?
That is why I said that all who preach the Gospel should fear this. Also everyone in Jesus shoud speak the truth from their heart. I am guilty of sin, I am not good, I have many weaknesses. What can you prove me guilty of if I am already telling you I am guilty? I trust the grace of God in Jesus, I put all my life in his hands. What is it that you want from me? You do realize that you are operating in the very spirit that was against Jesus. Your accusing me, rejecting me, and questioning not me, but what the Gospel says. It is not me you are against, it is the Gospel. Yet have you even read it?
"We didn't start the fire"
That's really funny how you ignore and remove important chunks of conversation. Nevertheless:
Well, it's much more. You are now telling us what to do (like to read Gospels) - how could we know you are not deceived? How could you suggest anything to anyone who looking for the truth if you KNOW you might be deceived, and therefore could spread the wrong information?
You cannot speak truth from your heart (which is just a muscle-based pump), because you do not know whether what you speak is truth, or you are just deceived. Note that you cannot test it, and therefore you will never know if you got the truth, or you are just deceived (because "you will not know you are being decieved").
This is irrelevant.
How do you know? You think you do, but maybe in fact you do not. I'm sure the parents of the deceased girl were also one hundred percent sure they trust the grace of God in Jesus, and in fact they did put her life in his hands.
I'd say that in this case your "loving" and "caring" God revealed to be just a heartless snob - he let the girl die because their parents maybe violated (in your interpretation) some rule. Even non-loving and non-caring courts would not do that. But your Jesus just did. Shame in him.
I want you to follow your own logic, and agree that:
1. You might be deceived (and in fact not following Jesus);
2. There is no way for you to test whether you folllow Jesus or not;
3. Therefore you should assume you are deceived (the stake is high - ethernal torture in Hell!) until proven otherwise.
That's your interpretation, and you could be deceived. Why should I trust you? Maybe that's Satan talking to me through you!
Quote
That is why I said that all who preach the Gospel should fear this.
Well, it's much more. You are now telling us what to do (like to read Gospels) - how could we know you are not deceived? How could you suggest anything to anyone who looking for the truth if you KNOW you might be deceived, and therefore could spread the wrong information?
Quote
Also everyone in Jesus shoud speak the truth from their heart.
You cannot speak truth from your heart (which is just a muscle-based pump), because you do not know whether what you speak is truth, or you are just deceived. Note that you cannot test it, and therefore you will never know if you got the truth, or you are just deceived (because "you will not know you are being decieved").
Quote
I am guilty of sin, I am not good, I have many weaknesses. What can you prove me guilty of if I am already telling you I am guilty?
This is irrelevant.
Quote
I trust the grace of God in Jesus, I put all my life in his hands.
How do you know? You think you do, but maybe in fact you do not. I'm sure the parents of the deceased girl were also one hundred percent sure they trust the grace of God in Jesus, and in fact they did put her life in his hands.
I'd say that in this case your "loving" and "caring" God revealed to be just a heartless snob - he let the girl die because their parents maybe violated (in your interpretation) some rule. Even non-loving and non-caring courts would not do that. But your Jesus just did. Shame in him.
Quote
What is it that you want from me? You do realize that you are operating in the very spirit that was against Jesus.
I want you to follow your own logic, and agree that:
1. You might be deceived (and in fact not following Jesus);
2. There is no way for you to test whether you folllow Jesus or not;
3. Therefore you should assume you are deceived (the stake is high - ethernal torture in Hell!) until proven otherwise.
Quote
Your accusing me, rejecting me, and questioning not me, but what the Gospel says.
That's your interpretation, and you could be deceived. Why should I trust you? Maybe that's Satan talking to me through you!
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
Lindsey 0
Have you read the Tao Te Ching? I wonder which way your life would have gone if THAT's the spiritual path you had chosen to follow? Or the Rigveda? Or the Kama Sutra? 
Or even the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous....
There are truths in all of them, lessons that people need, and often instructions so that ya' don't have to live your life by trial and error if you don't want to.
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
QuoteHave you read the Tao Te Ching? I wonder which way your life would have gone if THAT's the spiritual path you had chosen to follow? Or the Rigveda? Or the Kama Sutra?
There are truths in all of them, lessons that people need, and often instructions so that ya' don't have to live your life by trial and error if you don't want to.
linz
Listen to what Jesus says...
"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."
Whereever you find wisdom Linz it will be in the flow of love. If the wisdom you find makes sense to you, bump it with the Gospel and just see if the two agree. Of course your right, if I grew up in those areas, I would most likely follow that path. I can write more about this tomorrow so that you have a firm understanding of what the Gospel says about others being saved. It does not say that only Christians will be saved, but that salvation is only found in Jesus. There is a difference. I will explain more tomorrow about this. Bill and I have had several conversations about this as well.
Wisdom follows goodness and righteousness, goodness and righteousness follow love. Love is the leader of true wisdom. Everyones soul is in Gods hands. Even the Gospel says the same thing. Its all about love, deep love from the heart. Understanding that we are loved so much, despite all our faults and mistakes. Seeing our sin, our weaknesses ect... is the first step to truth. I believe narcotics anonomous even speaks of the power of truth over denial? I know AA does.
"We didn't start the fire"
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?
Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?
Science will never be greater than love.
Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love".
Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow, how does this have anything to do with love? Meaning, how do you conclude that I think that way just because I said science will never be greater than love. You can have faith in things besides love and truth. These times are getting so bad, they are going to get much worse, and because of things like this happening, many people will begin to hate God and not the spirit of evil which uses deceptions just like this. These people believed their faith to be greater than what it was. Deception.
What deception are you talking about? Like you, they put faith in Jesus. Like you, they read the Gospel. And like you, they believed that faith was more important than science. If you somehow feel they are different from you, you'll have to be more specific in what that difference is.
One characteristic of the fruit of the spirit is humbleness. Only God knows those who have great faith. If I walk around believing myself to have great faith, then I walk around with pride and i dont even know it. Look....
I asked you a simple question. You answer with a long-winded sermon and completely ignored my question. I'll ask again:
How was what that family believed different from what you believe?
If you once again show you need to avoid answering that question, I will just have to assume you have the same set of beliefs.
Lindsey 0
My response was to your statement about being against the Gospel despite not having read it. It really doesn't matter if a person has read it or not. What Jesus has to say doesn't matter either if it's the credibility of the Bible that's being questioned. The Bible won't prove that God exists, and it doesn't even provide adequate evidence that Christianity is THE right path.
But it does provide something substantial to believers. It gives something that is life-altering, in a good way, to people who need that or want that. I tend to think that what it gives to people is the very same thing that those other texts give to people who follow their teachings....well, except for the kama sutra...lol....
None of them will give any objective proofs. I don't think that's their purpose. But all of them provide a great spiritual foundation and lessons, for people who don't require objective proof of spiritual stuff.
But it does provide something substantial to believers. It gives something that is life-altering, in a good way, to people who need that or want that. I tend to think that what it gives to people is the very same thing that those other texts give to people who follow their teachings....well, except for the kama sutra...lol....
None of them will give any objective proofs. I don't think that's their purpose. But all of them provide a great spiritual foundation and lessons, for people who don't require objective proof of spiritual stuff.
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
jcd11235 0
QuoteI believe Im trying to say that love couldnt be compared to science …
Agreed. They both have their place, and both are important, but to compare them is like comparing length to mass or color to texture.
Quote… that [love] is greater [than science] and always will be.
But here you compare them, immediately after acknowledging they can't be compared. "Greater than" implies comparison.
QuoteI said science is limited and love is not.
They are both limited, they are just limited in different ways. If love weren't limited, that child would not have died from her treatable diabetes. I think few would claim that her parents didn't love her enough. They were simply and unfortunately misguided and believed love was enough, that medical science wasn't necessary. Just as science has its limits, so does love. Science cannot heal a broken heart, nor can love cure biological disease.
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Shotgun 1
QuoteThere are truths in all of them, lessons that people need, and often instructions so that ya' don't have to live your life by trial and error if you don't want to.
I think that everyone is living life by trial and error, no matter which books we choose to read or which paths we choose to follow. We can learn lessons from other people, but I don't think that the trial and error part of life is optional.
skydyvr 0
QuoteBy not using generally understood definitions of words, your words lose the value you want them to have, since your audience won't understand what exactly you're talking about.
True, the statement "love is greater than science" makes no sense.
But you can say "love is more important than science" or "I like love more than science", which makes more sense. Maybe that's what he meant.
. . =(_8^(1)
Lindsey 0
Yeah, you're probably right, but there are (like with most things) degrees of living by trial and errer. People living by the rules of the Pentecostal church are going to have different outcomes than people living barely within the letter of the law vs those who disregard even the law where their trial and error is concerned.
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools?
Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science?
Science will never be greater than love.
Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love".
Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow, how does this have anything to do with love? Meaning, how do you conclude that I think that way just because I said science will never be greater than love. You can have faith in things besides love and truth. These times are getting so bad, they are going to get much worse, and because of things like this happening, many people will begin to hate God and not the spirit of evil which uses deceptions just like this. These people believed their faith to be greater than what it was. Deception.
What deception are you talking about? Like you, they put faith in Jesus. Like you, they read the Gospel. And like you, they believed that faith was more important than science. If you somehow feel they are different from you, you'll have to be more specific in what that difference is.
One characteristic of the fruit of the spirit is humbleness. Only God knows those who have great faith. If I walk around believing myself to have great faith, then I walk around with pride and i dont even know it. Look....
I asked you a simple question. You answer with a long-winded sermon and completely ignored my question. I'll ask again:
How was what that family believed different from what you believe?
If you once again show you need to avoid answering that question, I will just have to assume you have the same set of beliefs.
You need to slow down, take a breath, and listen. I would not say that you believed in the Iraq war just because you are American.
Those who do things in the name of others do not necessarily know the person. There are many people in the Church that are being led astray from the true teachings of Jesus. This was already prophesied by Jesus himself 2000 yrs ago.
"23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time"
These people believed their faith to be greater than it was. I dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, and I will not put God to the test. Humans have a great sense of reasoning, it has to do with the way we balance the knowledge of good and evil within us. It is not right, nor was it ever right to watch someone die when you can help them.
But, you arent listening are you? You still believe that I am that family? I could get more upset about this, is that what your waiting for? Please stop accusing me for thier mistake. I have also heard that Christians are responsible for the crusades as well. Until any of you read the Gospel, you will never know who Jesus is, or what he came for. Whether you like it or not there is a spiritual war going on, what you cannot discern in your mind will be only discerned by the spirit, I just hope you are listening to the right voice. Hatred toward God is already growing...
"We didn't start the fire"
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