An Atheist Speaks

[zagijimzoo 0]

Once upon a time humans believed that gods rode in chariots across the night sky.
Then they believed that the earth was the center of the universe.
Then they believed in Santa Clause and Jesus.
I wonder how long it’s going to take for the masses of humans to stop worshiping imaginary people!
What’s that saying: If you don’t know your history, you are bound to repeat it!

History class in 2108: Once upon a time humans believed in and worshipped imaginary people! They introduced this concept to their children at a very early age by telling them a person named Santa Clause lives at the North Pole with flying reindeer and he knows if you have been bad or good! If they where good they got rewarded with gifts and candy and if they where bad they got coal and sent to bed! This had a profound effect of brain washing their children into believing in imagery people having control over they lives!
As the humans got older Santa Clause was replaced with other imaginary people Jesus and God that lived in the clouds with flying angels. They gave God more control. If you where good you would go to heaven and have ever lasting peace. But if you where bad you burned in hell for eternity! This had a profound effect of brain washing their adults into believing in imagery people having control over they lives!

[jcd11235 0]

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Your getting into areas of things you may not know about, but are trying to sound like you do.

Or, perhaps you are.

Buddha is honored by buddhist.

Yes, for finding what he sought.

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What he taught is the fundamental foundation of buddhism.

Yes, the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path.

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But tell me more about him maybe not even existing?

My apologies, I was confusing the knowledge of his life with that of Lao Tse's life.

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You seem to need evidence even to believe in what he said is truthful, becuase if he didnt exist, then neither did his wisdom.

This is not true. There's very little (if any) evidence of a historical Jesus, and no evidence of Jesus as "The Son Of God." Yet many of the teachings attributed to Jesus ring true.

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Otherwise, you take the buddhas teachings, make them your own, and dismiss the buddha himself.

What difference does it make? Many things attributed to Jesus were said by others before Jesus' lifetime. Are they less true because he didn't attribute credit?

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The same is with Jesus. Because you cant prove his existance and his sacrafice, you dismiss his teachings, yet, many people still use his teachings as a strong foundation for loving one another, while dismissing (and therefore dishonoring) Jesus himself.

Dismissing is not the same as dishonoring.

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I would like to know what your idea of worship is?

Christ is the central deity of Christianity. He is worshiped as a god rather than a man The church has established a mythology around him, given him the power to rise from the dead, turn water into wine, walk on water, etc. Christian prayer is often offered on Jesus' name.

This is worship.

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I meant others do, right?

Others dislike people for their actions? Sure. It happens all the time.

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Thats understandable, but again I told you that I believe love is limitless, I know you disagree, spirituality helps us recieve more.

How could you know this without first experiencing all sources of love?

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If you limit love, you limit the heart of the man and the love that can be recieved.

Not at all. Acknowledging that love has limited usefulness in life does not limit one's ability to love or be loved.

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Also, your understanding of "religion" is also obscured a bit.

Oh really? How so?

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God is spirit, anyone who seeks God seeks the spirit, it is spirit that holds the truth, not religion.

Many people bypass that seeking God part altogether, and go straight to seeking Truth. Different strokes for different folks. Anyone who believes there is but one path to truth hasn't found it yet.

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What you need to say, is "what can the spirit do that love cannot"?

Why? Do you have a canned response ready for that question?

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Then you would see the truth …

So I take it that means you'll lie to me unless I change my question's wording from asking about religion to asking about spirit?

While I consider doing so, how about defining spirit for me, so I know precisely what you mean by the word. Can you do that?

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When you receive the love of someone who died for you, so that you would have life to the fullest, then you can tell me if love is limited or not.

I can't say anyone has done ever done that for me.

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True love, hungers passionately, it is never filled but always satisfied...the hunger itself is indescribably joyful.

Admittedly a colorful description, but it has nothing to do with the conversation.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Once upon a time humans believed that gods rode in chariots across the night sky.
Then they believed that the earth was the center of the universe.
Then they believed in Santa Clause and Jesus.
I wonder how long it’s going to take for the masses of humans to stop worshiping imaginary people!
What’s that saying: If you don’t know your history, you are bound to repeat it!

History class in 2108: Once upon a time humans believed in and worshipped imaginary people! They introduced this concept to their children at a very early age by telling them a person named Santa Clause lives at the North Pole with flying reindeer and he knows if you have been bad or good! If they where good they got rewarded with gifts and candy and if they where bad they got coal and sent to bed! This had a profound effect of brain washing their children into believing in imagery people having control over they lives!
As the humans got older Santa Clause was replaced with other imaginary people Jesus and God that lived in the clouds with flying angels. They gave God more control. If you where good you would go to heaven and have ever lasting peace. But if you where bad you burned in hell for eternity! This had a profound effect of brain washing their adults into believing in imagery people having control over they lives!

What is so imaginary about love?

"We didn't start the fire"

[Mockingbird 0]

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The question was, how was what that family believed different from what you believe.

My guess is that rynodigsmusic would take his child to the doctor if the child was sick, rather than relying on only prayer, and that is how his beliefs are different from that family's beliefs.(???)

Well, thank you, Shotgun. At least someone is reading his comments/replies.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

What difference does it make? Many things attributed to Jesus were said by others before Jesus' lifetime. Are they less true because he didn't attribute credit?

----This just proves even more what Jesus says about wisdom. That it is found everywhere. Jesus came to give us the spirit through his flesh. The wisdom which is revealed is a gift of the spirit

Dismissing is not the same as dishonoring.

----Yes, I agree with you, but if you take something from someone and dismiss that it came from them, that, to me, is dishonoring them.

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I would like to know what your idea of worship is?

Christ is the central deity of Christianity. He is worshiped as a god rather than a man The church has established a mythology around him, given him the power to rise from the dead, turn water into wine, walk on water, etc. Christian prayer is often offered on Jesus' name.

This is worship.

----Actually, he is worshiped as both. As God who gave the spirit through man with his own love for us. When we worship, we are honoring, praising, and giving thanks to what we love. I dont have to be in church to do this. Meditation and prayer are a powerful gift for those who can appreciate them and find joy in them. You are exalting something above yourself. Jesus said many people do the same with money. Understand the spirit as the very nature of life and love, the creator. Even native american indians and different tribes in the world worship the spirit. Everything that is, ever will be, and ever has been. Jesus embodies perfect love

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Also, your understanding of "religion" is also obscured a bit.

Oh really? How so?

----Because, respectfully, you dont know the spirit. If you did, you would know that there are many religions that are religious, but not spiritual. I dont say I am in a religion, because it doesnt sound right. It doesnt sound right, because I also have seen the definition of religion that is exposed on TV and in many different denominations ect...Rememember, that our perceptions are different, when I say spirit, I dont believe you have that perception. But, when I say religion, that perception (which is not the peception of the spirit) is the one that you have. I wasnt being argumetative when I said its obscured a bit, but there was no other way to say it.

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God is spirit, anyone who seeks God seeks the spirit, it is spirit that holds the truth, not religion.

Many people bypass that seeking God part altogether, and go straight to seeking Truth. Different strokes for different folks. Anyone who believes there is but one path to truth hasn't found it yet.

----Understandable. But, paths lead to their destinations. There are many paths to the truth, but only one truth. Now, if we disagree on what truth is, then we disagree. Of course I believe the truth is the love of God in Jesus, I dont know what you believe is truth.

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Then you would see the truth …

So I take it that means you'll lie to me unless I change my question's wording from asking about religion to asking about spirit?

----I dont see anyone lying to you, its just a little hard for you to understand without having been born again. There is a difference between religion and spirit. We are on the crest of one of the greatest problems in relgion and man...hypocrisy and self righteousness. This is one of the greatest topics of the teachings of Jesus, its discernment and understanding goes beyond this little thread. Forgive me, but Im getting tired, I may be able to elaborate more tomorrow.

While I consider doing so, how about defining spirit for me, so I know precisely what you mean by the word. Can you do that?

----the spirit is life beyond what is seen. Love is the giver of that life.

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When you receive the love of someone who died for you, so that you would have life to the fullest, then you can tell me if love is limited or not.

I can't say anyone has done ever done that for me.

----Jesus did.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jcd11235 0]

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This just proves even more what Jesus says about wisdom. That it is found everywhere.

Agreed.

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Yes, I agree with you, but if you take something from someone and dismiss that it came from them, that, to me, is dishonoring them.

And here you contradict yourself.

By your standard, it would seem that Jesus dishonored quite a few who came before him, such as Plato and the Buddha.

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Because, respectfully, you dont know the spirit.

You, with your condescending holier than thou attitude, have no idea how wrong you are.

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Of course I believe the truth is the love of God in Jesus, I dont know what you believe is truth.

Christ is a path, not a destination. The path is suitable for some, but not all. Maybe one day you'll come to understand that.

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Jesus did.

There is virtually no credible evidence of a historical Jesus, and none of a resurrection.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Mockingbird 0]

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There is virtually no credible evidence of a historical Jesus, and none of a resurrection.

(I can't figure out how to link back to an earlier reply I made , so I'll cut and paste something I want to reiterate.)

•First: Non-Christian (and therefore objective, or at least not biased toward Christianity) sources mentioning Jesus, some of which could even be considered anti-Christian:
Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucin, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9.

•Second: Using these mentions of him by non-Christian sources, you can piece together his life:
1. Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar (the Roman emperor)
2. He was said to have lived a virtuous life
3. He was "a wonder worker"
4. He had a brother named James
5. He was hailed as the "messiah" or "christ" ("christ"= "messiah")(Note: the sources don't affirm that He WAS the Messiah; they simply affirm that he was hailed as such.)
6. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate (the Roman procurator/ governor in Judea under Tiberius Caesar)
7. He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover
8. Darkness and an "earthquake" occurred at the time he died
9. His disciples believed he rose from the dead
10. His disciples were willing to die for that belief
11. Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome
12. His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Considering those references (again, by objective sources), it's unreasonable to claim He never existed. More importantly, they affirm the New Testament record about Jesus.

• Third, please check this out and let me know what you think: Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus by William Lane Craig

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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When the universe's state of entropy reaches a maximum, how will it appear/feel/etc.?

That's the $64,000 question. No one knows for certain. Considering that for a given volume, a black hole has maximum entropy, it is certainly not unrealistic to consider a pre-Big Bang/Big Bounce/singularity type scenario.

So perhaps, dark? Cold? (The whole concept is hard to picture!) What do they say will happen after this maximum entropy occurs?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[kallend 2,028]

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When the universe's state of entropy reaches a maximum, how will it appear/feel/etc.?

That's the $64,000 question. No one knows for certain. Considering that for a given volume, a black hole has maximum entropy, it is certainly not unrealistic to consider a pre-Big Bang/Big Bounce/singularity type scenario.

So perhaps, dark? Cold? (The whole concept is hard to picture!) What do they say will happen after this maximum entropy occurs?

George Burns appears and tells Gracie to say goodnight.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Shotgun 1]

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George Burns appears and tells Gracie to say goodnight.

Well, there couldn't be a more perfect ending than that!

[shropshire 0]

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"Ladies and gentlemen," he said, "The Universe as we know it has now been in existence for over one hundred and seventy thousand million billion years and will be ending in a little over half an hour. So, welcome one and all to Milliways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe!"

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jakee 1,500]

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(I can't figure out how to link back to an earlier reply I made

There should be a 'copy shortcut' clicky on the left hand side of every post you see. Click it and the URL of the post goes into your clipboard.

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Lucin, a Greek satirist

Again, it's Lucian.

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Considering those references (again, by objective sources), it's unreasonable to claim He never existed. More importantly, they affirm the New Testament record about Jesus.

What is the earliest date of any of those sources you mention?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skydyvr 0]

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George Burns appears and tells Gracie to say goodnight.

Coolest imagery ever.

. . =(_8^(1)

[jcd11235 0]

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Considering those references (again, by objective sources), it's unreasonable to claim He never existed.

Can you match the claims to the dated sources in which they're made?

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Third, please check this out and let me know what you think: Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus by William Lane Craig

The site won't let me access articles without registering.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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There should be a 'copy shortcut' clicky on the left hand side of every post you see. Click it and the URL of the post goes into your clipboard.

I believe that is an IE only feature, though I'm not sure why.

I use a search to find a particular post, then edit out the search criteria from the url.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Yes, I agree with you, but if you take something from someone and dismiss that it came from them, that, to me, is dishonoring them.

And here you contradict yourself.

By your standard, it would seem that Jesus dishonored quite a few who came before him, such as Plato and the Buddha.

----Actually not quite. Wisdom is the source of knowledge, just because one has the knowledge, does not mean he has wisdom. You wouldnt say the river is the same as the ocean, they are two different things, but both are connected to the source, which is water. Jesus is the source of even wisdom. Wisdom follows the spirit.

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Because, respectfully, you dont know the spirit.

You, with your condescending holier than thou attitude, have no idea how wrong you are.

----If you only knew me, I dont believe you would say or even think I was holier and thou. I have been saying all along that I am guilty, that I struggle, and have weaknesses just like everyone. It is the holier than thous that I dont like, the hypcrites, the self righteous...but I am speaking the truth of the Gospel to you and that is what you dont like. You have to ask for the Holy Spirit, it is only by Jesus that it is given. Forgive me to assume that you had not receved it, but your posts are taking me that way.
The Holy spirit is the Hallowed spirit...the greatest, it is only given through repentance and acceptance of Jesus dying for your sins. It has to be wanted and desired above everything else in your life, including your own life. How do I even begin to tell you what the Holy Spirit is? Its like the finest of banquets, prepared and ready just for you, your invitation is in your hands, and all you have to do is show up.

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Of course I believe the truth is the love of God in Jesus, I dont know what you believe is truth.

Christ is a path, not a destination. The path is suitable for some, but not all. Maybe one day you'll come to understand that.

----I dont believe what you believe. "I am the way, the truth, and the life" There is a truth in existance. Why wouldnt it be love? When you receive Gods love through Christ, you see it all around, in ways I literally cant explain.

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Jesus did.

There is virtually no credible evidence of a historical Jesus, and none of a resurrection.

Now, we are back to this again. The evidence is in the spirit, which you either will or wont accept.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jcd11235 0]

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Jesus is the source of even wisdom. Wisdom follows the spirit.

Funny how Jesus was the source of wisdom that preceded him.

Believe what you want. Redefine words to to suit your needs. Keep denying logic and reason. It all seems to be working so well for you. Personally, I've grown tired of your shifting assertions. Have a nice night.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Jesus is the source of even wisdom. Wisdom follows the spirit.

Funny how Jesus was the source of wisdom that preceded him.

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----If you only knew what you just said and how profound it really was. This was the biggest problem in Jesus' time. While he was doing all these miracles, speaking this wisdom, and prophecying his very own death on the cross, people still did not believe he was God. I hope you dont think I am patronizing you, but you have an incredible mind, certainly gifted.

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Believe what you want. Redefine words to to suit your needs. Keep denying logic and reason. It all seems to be working so well for you. Personally, I've grown tired of your shifting assertions. Have a nice night.

I have really enjoyed our conversations, they have been very inspiring. You also have a good night.

"We didn't start the fire"

[maadmax 0]

George Burns appears and tells Gracie to say goodnight.***

That is a relief, I am glad to hear that George and Gracie will be there to.

[Mockingbird 0]

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•First: Non-Christian (and therefore objective, or at least not biased toward Christianity) sources mentioning Jesus, some of which could even be considered anti-Christian:
Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucian, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9.

•Second: Using these mentions of him by non-Christian sources, you can piece together his life:
1. Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar (the Roman emperor)
2. He was said to have lived a virtuous life
3. He was "a wonder worker"
4. He had a brother named James
5. He was hailed as the "messiah" or "christ" ("christ"= "messiah")(Note: the sources don't affirm that He WAS the Messiah; they simply affirm that he was hailed as such.)
6. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate (the Roman procurator/ governor in Judea under Tiberius Caesar)
7. He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover
8. Darkness and an "earthquake" occurred at the time he died
9. His disciples believed he rose from the dead
10. His disciples were willing to die for that belief
11. Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome
12. His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Considering those references (again, by objective sources), it's unreasonable to claim He never existed. More importantly, they affirm the New Testament record about Jesus.

• Third, please check this out and let me know what you think: Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus by William Lane Craig, found here:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5207

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What is the earliest date of any of those sources you mention?

Flavius Josephus (AD 37-100) is the earliest Jewish (non-Christian) witness to the historicity of Jesus. Pliny the Younger (AD 62-113) is the earliest Roman (non-Christian) source referring to Jesus.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"