piper17 1
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kallend 2,028
QuoteGee, what's wrong with general aviation pilots, aircraft owners, DZ operators and skydivers paying for use of the national air traffic control system. It is a necessary part of our infrastructure and what exempts skydiving and other areas of aviation for paying "their fair share".
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They already do, by way of the tax on aviation fuel.
The "user fee" proposal is a transparent attempt by the airlines (so chronically mismanaged as to always be on the verge of bankruptcy) to shift the cost of a system set up and run for their convenience onto someone else.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
piper17 1
So, how does this differ from socialized medicine being promoted by the Dems or the public education mess in this country being controlled (and run for the benefit of) teachers' unions?
Why is it okay to make taxpayers subsidize the healthcare of those who don't have private healthcare and mandate that they use a national healthcare system? Why do parents have to pay for a lousy public education system (being mismanaged by teachers' unions among others) and then have to pay more out of one's own pocket for private schools?
Why is it okay to make taxpayers subsidize the healthcare of those who don't have private healthcare and mandate that they use a national healthcare system? Why do parents have to pay for a lousy public education system (being mismanaged by teachers' unions among others) and then have to pay more out of one's own pocket for private schools?
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling
kallend 2,028
QuoteSo, how does this differ from socialized medicine being promoted by the Dems or the public education mess in this country being controlled (and run for the benefit of) teachers' unions?
Why is it okay to make taxpayers subsidize the healthcare of those who don't have private healthcare and mandate that they use a national healthcare system? Why do parents have to pay for a lousy public education system (being mismanaged by teachers' unions among others) and then have to pay more out of one's own pocket for private schools?
OK, so why do you think GA taxpayers should be subsidizing the airlines? General fund taxpayers have already bailed out bankrupt airlines by assuming the costs of their pension plans. Bailing out airlines is EXACTLY what the GA "user fee" proposal does. Not only that, it will require an enormous increase in the size of government to administer, whereas the current gas tax is collected automatically. Do you LIKE bigger government?
"The worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender growth, and then earns little or no money. Think airlines." Warren Buffett
Warren Buffett observing that the world airline industry has not made a dime for investors in a century of manned flight:
"I like to think that if I'd been at Kitty Hawk in 1903 when Orville Wright took off, I would have been farsighted enough, and public-spirited enough--I owed this to future capitalists--to shoot him down. I mean, Karl Marx couldn't have done as much damage to capitalists as Orville did." Warren Buffett.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Channman 2
Quote
www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/080430funding.html
I suppose when over 70% of the people already think you suck as president, adding another couple of hundred thousand GA pilots and skydivers won't make much difference.
Hard for me to confess I voted for this guy twice. The 1st four years were good, the last four years have been a great disappointment.
How are these fees accessed, as an example are they charged to a flight school based on number of flights in and out of Class B? Or is the fee / TAX based on several different methods?
piper17 1
No, I don't like big government but you certainly seem to like it...except when it is your "ox that is being gored". Why do you avoid addressing the rest of the material in my posts.
You seem to think it is okay for socialized medicine and a public education system that is a disgrace to be foisted on tax payers in this country but you don't like the idea of having to pay for the the national air traffic control system. Same idea!
How about everyone (with the exception of those who are mentally or physically unable to work) paying for their own healthcare and parents get vouchers for their children's education and choose where they send their kids to school.
I don't see anywhere in the US Constitution where the federal government is granted the authority to take over the healthcare system or the way healthcare is delivered to citizens. I DO see where the federal government has the responsibility to facilitate commerce between the states.
You seem to think it is okay for socialized medicine and a public education system that is a disgrace to be foisted on tax payers in this country but you don't like the idea of having to pay for the the national air traffic control system. Same idea!
How about everyone (with the exception of those who are mentally or physically unable to work) paying for their own healthcare and parents get vouchers for their children's education and choose where they send their kids to school.
I don't see anywhere in the US Constitution where the federal government is granted the authority to take over the healthcare system or the way healthcare is delivered to citizens. I DO see where the federal government has the responsibility to facilitate commerce between the states.
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling
billvon 3,008
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>I don't see anywhere in the US Constitution where the federal
>government is granted the authority to take over the healthcare system . . .
Nor is the President granted the right to declare war. Times change, apparently.
>government is granted the authority to take over the healthcare system . . .
Nor is the President granted the right to declare war. Times change, apparently.
rehmwa 2
QuoteHow about everyone (with the exception of those who are mentally or physically unable to work) paying for their own healthcare and parents get vouchers for their children's education and choose where they send their kids to school.
see, I agree with this, but I don't see how it fits in a thread about aviation user fees - and Dr K won't acknowledge any point that doesn't include something that appeals to his political bent. right or wrong - because Bush is tangibly even in every way, from his filthy toes to his lice ridden hairline.
(once you made the point about people being hypocrits about support of other parallel issues where taxpayers have to supplement random functions and industries - that's about all you can do, and then listen to the denial from those that Education is a pet for them about how it's so different and won't someone please think of the children)
now it just looks like you want to talk vouchers
as it is, good analogy - commercial airlines are like the teacher's union... we're better off to privatize everything we possibly can - got it
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
kallend 2,028
QuoteNo, I don't like big government but you certainly see to like it...except when it is your "ox that is being gored". Why do you avoid addressing the rest of the material in my posts.
You seem to think it is okay for socialized medicine and a public education system that is a disgrace to be foisted on tax payers in this country but you don't like the idea of having to pay for the the national air traffic control system. Same idea!
How about everyone (with the exception of those who are mentally or physically unable to work) paying for their own healthcare and parents get vouchers for their children's education and choose where they send their kids to school.
I don't see anywhere in the US Constitution where the federal government is granted the authority to take over the healthcare system or the way healthcare is delivered to citizens. I DO see where the federal government has the responsibility to facilitate commerce between the states.
To repeat, since you apparently missed it the first few times, GA already pays for its use of the system through its gas tax. This Bush proposal is simply a subsidy to the airlines, who clearly can't manage their own affairs.
The rest of your rant is quite irrelevant too.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 2,028
QuoteQuoteHow about everyone (with the exception of those who are mentally or physically unable to work) paying for their own healthcare and parents get vouchers for their children's education and choose where they send their kids to school.
see, I agree with this, but I don't see how it fits in a thread about aviation user fees - and Dr K won't acknowledge any point that doesn't include something that appeals to his political bent. right or wrong - because Bush is tangibly even in every way, from his filthy toes to his lice ridden hairline.
(once you made the point about people being hypocrits about support of other parallel issues where taxpayers have to supplement random functions and industries - that's about all you can do, and then listen to the denial from those that Education is a pet for them about how it's so different and won't someone please think of the children)
now it just looks like you want to talk vouchers
as it is, good analogy - commercial airlines are like the teacher's union... we're better off to privatize everything we possibly can - got it
Since we're so far off topic already, this is a good read:
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/tax/article1996735.ece
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
rehmwa 2
QuoteSince we're so far off topic already, this is a good read:
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/tax/article1996735.ece
oh gawd, reading - can't someone put it on TV for me?
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
piper17 1
Subsidizing airlines, subsidizing those who can't pay their own medical bills, subsidizing an educational system that doesn't educate and is run by a bloated school administration bureaucracy....what's the difference?
Heck, taxpayer dollars subsidize things such as NPR and PBS...why not the airlines? Why can't NPR and PBS pay their own way as commercial television and radio has to do?
Heck, taxpayer dollars subsidize things such as NPR and PBS...why not the airlines? Why can't NPR and PBS pay their own way as commercial television and radio has to do?
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling
Channman 2
> Heck, taxpayer dollars subsidize things such as NPR and PBS...why not the airlines? Why can't NPR and PBS pay their own way as commercial television and radio has to do?
Because their business model sucks
kallend 2,028
Quote> Heck, taxpayer dollars subsidize things such as NPR and PBS...why not the airlines? Why can't NPR and PBS pay their own way as commercial television and radio has to do?
Because their business model sucks
They're doing better than the airlines, which, as Warren Buffett pointed out, on aggregate have lost money for their investors ever since the first commercial airliner carried its first passsenger.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jcd11235 0
QuoteSo, how does this differ from socialized medicine being promoted by the Dems
McCain wants to take money from taxes for healthcare, too, he just doesn't want to address underlying problems.
QuoteWhy is it okay to make taxpayers subsidize the healthcare of those who don't have private healthcare and mandate that they use a national healthcare system?
None of the three candidates proposes such a thing.
QuoteWhy do parents have to pay for a lousy public education system … and then have to pay more out of one's own pocket for private schools?
Education benefits society as much as the individual. Society should pay for it, even if they send their kids to private school, their kids are grown, or they don't even have kids. But that discussion doesn't belong in this thread.[/hijack]
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
bclark 0
I also sent letters to my senator and congressman today.
(Thanks Trent)
(Thanks Trent)
tkhayes 348
how about all that subsidizing we do of the military? Now there is a socialized institution if I ever saw one. Maybe only those that WANT to fight a war and USE the war should be the ones paying for the military.
Oh that's right, somewhere in the twisted view of things, the military is excluded as a 'socialist concept'. We can't fund healthcare or education cause that's damn near communist, but we can pour hundreds of billions into the military......
The user fees will add more than $1/jump to our costs at Skydive City, given that we contact Tampa approach every load, and we do about 4000 flight each year, adding $100K to our operating costs. But I have a solution.
We DO NOT contact Tampa ATC, we DO NOT request radar service and we squawk 1200 all day long, which I am allowed to do and I just go ahead and drop jumpers all day long without any reports from the tower on who is flying around us.
That will be safe for sure.....
Kallend said it - the FAA is ALREADY BEING FUNDED. THeir own financial people already have reported that the funding scheme is good for the NEXT TWENTY YEARS. the user fees are a red herring generated by lobbyists. "NextGEN" is a slogan, not an air traffic control system. It has not yet been invented and is simply a catchphrase for some pie-in-the-sky system that has yet to be invented, implemented or even budgeted.
TK
Oh that's right, somewhere in the twisted view of things, the military is excluded as a 'socialist concept'. We can't fund healthcare or education cause that's damn near communist, but we can pour hundreds of billions into the military......
The user fees will add more than $1/jump to our costs at Skydive City, given that we contact Tampa approach every load, and we do about 4000 flight each year, adding $100K to our operating costs. But I have a solution.
We DO NOT contact Tampa ATC, we DO NOT request radar service and we squawk 1200 all day long, which I am allowed to do and I just go ahead and drop jumpers all day long without any reports from the tower on who is flying around us.
That will be safe for sure.....
Kallend said it - the FAA is ALREADY BEING FUNDED. THeir own financial people already have reported that the funding scheme is good for the NEXT TWENTY YEARS. the user fees are a red herring generated by lobbyists. "NextGEN" is a slogan, not an air traffic control system. It has not yet been invented and is simply a catchphrase for some pie-in-the-sky system that has yet to be invented, implemented or even budgeted.
TK
kallend 2,028
Well, the bill died in the full Senate for unrelated reasons, so it's all moot right now.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
piper17 1
Evidently, you don't remember Hillary's healthcare plan from the 1990s when slick willie was in the White House.
"Education benefits society as much as the individual" Society should pay for it" First, many things benefit society but I don't think it is up to the taxpayer to fund them. Secondly, why can't txpaying parents choose the schools that their children attend instead of being forced to continue sending their children to failing schools. If education benefits society and society should pay for it, what is wrong with allowing children to attend parochial schools if these schools provide a better education?
"Education benefits society as much as the individual" Society should pay for it" First, many things benefit society but I don't think it is up to the taxpayer to fund them. Secondly, why can't txpaying parents choose the schools that their children attend instead of being forced to continue sending their children to failing schools. If education benefits society and society should pay for it, what is wrong with allowing children to attend parochial schools if these schools provide a better education?
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling
To me, this is quite similar to the coming national healthcare program that Hillary/Obama crowd are pushing where all of us have to pay for socialized medicine to covers the healthcare of those who can't pay for their own and we all will suffer with what will be inferior healthcare for ourselves as well.
Or, the public education system in this country where parents are pressured to send their kids to failing schools run be the teachers unions whose primary interest is themselves rather than the students' learning rather than opting out and being allowed to use vouchers to send their kids to successful schools. Instead, parents taxes go to pay for failing schools and then have to spend more of their own money to send their kids to private schools.
Welcome to socialism and a federal government that is increasingly taking more and more control of our lives away from us.
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