Bush demands aviation user fees

[piper17 1]

Actually, I am totally against user fees for funding the national air traffic control system...but it was a good vehicle for demonstrating your hypocrisy.

Frankly, I could care less in the US military kills millions of brown-skinned (or any other color) people who represent a threat to this country and its citizens. Of course, your figure of "tens of thousands" is crap but that is besides the point.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[idrankwhat 0]

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Frankly, I could care less in the US military kills millions of brown-skinned (or any other color) people who represent a threat to this country and its citizens.

Funny, I think I've heard some of them say exactly the same thing about us. How constructive.

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Of course, your figure of "tens of thousands" is crap but that is besides the point.

True, probably more like hundreds of thousands if you look at the bigger picture.

[kallend 2,028]

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Actually, I am totally against user fees for funding the national air traffic control system...but it was a good vehicle for demonstrating your hypocrisy.

In your dreams. That's the kind of self-congratulatory inverse logic we expect from rushmc. You won't find that I have ever posted anything in support of corporate welfare for companies with inept business models.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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The voucher is a tax funded subsidy. Those who receive them will essentially be getting a reduction in their taxes, a tax credit for pulling their kids out of public school and enrolling them in a private or parochial school.

not at all - they still pay the same taxes, their kid's education is still subsidized - no change

again, you aren't thinking about the kid being educated, you are thinking about the system not getting it's money


we should just stop - repetition is getting neither of us anywhere - you won't acknowledge that educational moneys is for the kids and not the system; I won't acknowledge the sole argument of "But the rich might also take advantage of the program in addition to the poor in crappy school districts"

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,028]

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I won't acknowledge the sole argument of "But the rich might also take advantage of the program in addition to the poor in crappy school districts"

You have it backwards. The rich are the only ones that can afford to take advantage of vouchers with the current proposals. Which is why the rich support the proposals.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

I doubt that, but even allowing it, then the proposals are written poorly. but the concept is still just. And there are many poor neighborhoods where the citizens are wishing for vouchers to get their kids elsewhere. How can we not address that?

(and of course it's obvious why those that currently use private schools would support it. Doesn't make it unfair, though. Just annoys those that hate to see ALL kids get supported)

Allow the vouchers and see if affordable schools pop up before you make your comment. You can't prove it otherwise, just assume and gripe about "couldas".



Unfortunately, with so many twisted ideas of how this should work, your people would only approve voucher programs if they applied to only people meeting a maximum income requirement, and maybe some race-based criteria, and of course for kids with same sex parents. Instead of having it as an option for all families. And of course where the vouchers are allowed, you'd insist on higher property taxes at that point to help 'balance' it further.

Funny how the left needs to apply laws in an unequal way and then calls it equal. Funny odd, not funny ha ha.

(anyway, none of you can admit that under the current system, any kid in private school is NOT being supported through education funding and you LIKE the idea of them subsidizing everyone else's education. So seeing this as correcting a wrong is totally denied. I make sure to thank my co-workers with kids in private school every week for helping to pay for my daughter's public education. Also my neighbors without kids.)



And THAT'S why I think that the airline industry shouldn't be trying to unload their expenses off on private pilots and small aviation businesses.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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not at all - they still pay the same taxes, their kid's education is still subsidized - no change

But they get the money back, conditional upon their kids enrollment in a non-public school. Since the vouchers are (presumably) based on the number of kids the parent is sending to non-public schools, it is effectively a tax credit.

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again, you aren't thinking about the kid being educated, you are thinking about the system not getting it's money

You are trying to artificially separate the two. The kid can't get educated of the educator does not have sufficient resources to do so. You simply want the money to go to a different system.

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we should just stop - repetition is getting neither of us anywhere - you won't acknowledge that educational moneys is for the kids and not the system; I won't acknowledge the sole argument of "But the rich might also take advantage of the program in addition to the poor in crappy school districts"

Since that isn't my argument, I wouldn't expect my posts to convince you of such.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 2,028]

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(anyway, none of you can admit that under the current system, any kid in private school is NOT being supported through education funding and you LIKE the idea of them subsidizing everyone else's education. .

Last time I checked it was not mandatory to eschew the public schools and send your kids to private schools. If a parent makes that choice it is unreasonable then to whine about the financial consequence of said choice.

Which is why I maintain that subsidizing inefficient airlines is a bad idea.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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not at all - they still pay the same taxes, their kid's education is still subsidized - no change

But they get the money back,

what money back? the US tax system isn't some wierd deal where everybody owns it in proportion to what they put in. All the kids deserve an education. Not just those you want to educated and the hell with the others.

they paid to the government like they always would - that money should go to education (just like childless households, and everybody else, etc) of all the children

in a completely-separate-and-unrelated-transaction, they get a voucher for the amount of public allocated money that is dedicated to their child's education in the first place - they don't get anything "back" (unless you have a mindset that these people need to pay twice for the same service for some reason). That money should educate that child regardless of whether the parent is rich or poor, or if the child goes to public or private


I want the money to follow the child, you want it to go to the NEA for schools that may or may not be doing a good job - simple as that

kid focus vs beaureaucracy focus - you have to admit that - but wouldn't expect you to



Which is why I also maintain that subsidizing inefficient airlines is a bad idea

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,028]

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But they get the money back,

what money back? the US tax system isn't some wierd deal where everybody owns it in proportion to what they put in.

[jcd11235 0]

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what money back? the US tax system isn't some wierd deal where everybody owns it in proportion to what they put in. All the kids deserve an education. Not just those you want to educated and the hell with the others.

Vouchers would allow parents to receive tax monies to apply to enrolling their kids in a non-public school system. How is that not a tax credit?

All kids do deserve an education, and the current system provides that opportunity. Taking money away from public education is saying, "the hell with the kids with parents cannot afford to pay the difference between the voucher value and tuition prices."

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they paid to the government like they always would - that money should go to education (just like childless households, and everybody else, etc) of all the children

Yes, it should and it does. Vouchers would not benefit "all the children." They would only benefit some of the children, to the detriment of the other children.

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in a completely-separate-and-unrelated-transaction, they get a voucher for the amount of public allocated money that is dedicated to their child's education in the first place - they don't get anything "back" (unless you have a mindset that these people need to pay twice for the same service for some reason).

Tax credits are often received in separate transactions. There's nothing unusual about that.

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That money should educate that child regardless of whether the parent is rich or poor, …

Agreed. Public education does this.

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… or if the child goes to public or private

If parents want to send their kids to private schools, that is their prerogative. However, they should not receive public funds to do so.

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I want the money to follow the child, you want it to go to the NEA for schools that may or may not be doing a good job - simple as that

I want the funds to benefit all kids. You want the funds to benefit those that can pay the difference between voucher value and private tuition price. It's as simple as that.

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kid focus vs beaureaucracy focus - you have to admit that - but wouldn't expect you to

Very nice mischaracterization of my argument.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mnealtx 0]

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But they get the money back,

what money back? the US tax system isn't some wierd deal where everybody owns it in proportion to what they put in.

VERY GOOD. Maybe you can convince mnealtx of this.

[rehmwa 2]

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I want the funds to benefit all kids. You want the funds to benefit those that can pay the difference between voucher value and private tuition price. It's as simple as that.

The funds per child should go to that child's education - regardless of whether he goes public or private. Your method only allows the benefit to go to those that would go to public school.

hardly "all" children

In a voucher system the child will get that funding if they choose public, or if they choose private

In your system the child ONLY gets that funding benefit in the public system



Let's try another tack:

If you can't handle that obvious set of truths, lets put it a different way.

A True voucher system would provide a Fund (call it a tax credit or voucher or whatever you like) to ALL families based on the number of children in the household (the ONLY criteria needed, any other criteria is not fair to the children).

Then there is no such thing as a "public" school. conversely, you can call ALL schools public - I don't care, use your favorite semantics.

Families can choose whatever school suits them to apply that credit towards.

Does that help? Or does the idea of schools having to perform for their money just scare you too much?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,028]

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But they get the money back,

what money back? the US tax system isn't some wierd deal where everybody owns it in proportion to what they put in.

VERY GOOD. Maybe you can convince mnealtx of this.

Funny, coming from someone that evidently thinks that the poor support the rich...

[kallend 2,028]

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I want the funds to benefit all kids. You want the funds to benefit those that can pay the difference between voucher value and private tuition price. It's as simple as that.

The funds per child should go to that child's education - regardless of whether he goes public or private. Your method only allows the benefit to go to those that would go to public school.

hardly "all" children

In a voucher system the child will get that funding if they choose public, or if they choose private

In your system the child ONLY gets that funding benefit in the public system



Let's try another tack:

If you can't handle that obvious set of truths, lets put it a different way.

A True voucher system would provide a Fund (call it a tax credit or voucher or whatever you like) to ALL families based on the number of children in the household (the ONLY criteria needed, any other criteria is not fair to the children).

Then there is no such thing as a "public" school. conversely, you can call ALL schools public - I don't care, use your favorite semantics.

Families can choose whatever school suits them to apply that credit towards.

Does that help? Or does the idea of schools having to perform for their money just scare you too much?

Fine, so long as the voucher's value allows even the poorest family to choose the best school.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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kid focus vs beaureaucracy focus - you have to admit that - but wouldn't expect you to

Very nice mischaracterization of my argument.

I find it a perfect characterization.

Screw it - it's so clearly an abused transfer mechanism, no wonder it's broke. We should privatize the entire freaking industry. Why should a childless couple have to pay for my kid to get schooling?


And that's why private pilots should not have to subsidized the big unions.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Fine, so long as the voucher's value allows even the poorest family to choose the best school.

certainly, the poorest family can credit their $X000 to that school year just like the rich family does

because you certainly aren't Democrat enough to recommend that education requires giving every child a completely blank check - hell, college professors would get into grade school teaching and charge whatever they want.

both will have to make up the difference if the total cost is more

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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As rehmwa stated so accurately, you do not own the government's tax revenues in proportion to your tax payments.

however, if the government unfairly overcollects, the over collection should be returned to those that paid it, not to those that didn't, nor should it be squandered just for the sake of taking it away from all



so, next time you are overcharged accidentally on your credit card, be happy if they just keep it or give it to someone else

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

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But they get the money back,

what money back? the US tax system isn't some wierd deal where everybody owns it in proportion to what they put in.

VERY GOOD. Maybe you can convince mnealtx of this.

Funny, coming from someone that evidently thinks that the poor support the rich...

Incorrect. The government (us collectively, in principle) provides more support to wealthy families than to middle class families (from taxfoundation.org). And vouchers are another symptom of this.

As rehmwa stated so accurately, you do not own the government's tax revenues in proportion to your tax payments.

[jcd11235 0]

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The funds per child should go to that child's education - regardless of whether he goes public or private. Your method only allows the benefit to go to those that would go to public school.

Every child has the opportunity to go to public school. Parents who choose to send their kids to private schools should not receive public fund to do so.

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hardly "all" children

It is all children. Nowhere have I advocated not offering the opportunity to go to public school to anyone.

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In a voucher system the child will get that funding if they choose public, or if they choose private

At the expense of those that remain in public schools. Sorry, that's not benefiting all children.

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In your system the child ONLY gets that funding benefit in the public system

If you decide that traffic is too heavy on public roads, should you receive public funds to have your own roads built? Public funds should go to public schools, where taxpayers have a say in the curriculum and the standards.

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Let's try another tack:

If you can't handle that obvious set of truths …

Let's not, since I don't have any trouble acknowledging the obvious set of truths. Sorry I don't buy into your "Vouchers are the way to be fair to the children" fantasy; I prefer reality.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,008]

>Why should a childless couple have to pay for my kid to get schooling?

For the same reason a disease-free couple should pay to support the CDC.

[jcd11235 0]

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We should privatize the entire freaking industry. Why should a childless couple have to pay for my kid to get schooling?

Maybe the private schools could be modeled after the airlines.

The childless couple benefits from living in an educated society.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

with vouchers, you can call all schools "public" - your semantic pissing about is boring me

I get your points, you refuse to even try to get mine, so no way can we even discuss it

I don't think you even understand the concept of vouchers, just what the NEA tells you. I'm done, if you don't want to even try to think about it it's such a waste of time

airlines - taxes - not through GA

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Maybe the private schools could be modeled after the airlines. .

why not, since public schools are modeled after the proposal in the OP - private pilots subsidizing the industry

how do you miss that?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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Maybe the private schools could be modeled after the airlines. .

why not, since public schools are modeled after the proposal in the OP - private pilots subsidizing the industry

how do you miss that?

Quite the opposite, actually. You are wanting to subsidize private schools at the expense of public schools. How do you miss that?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!