Raising our kids in religion. I'm anti, she's pro

[georgerussia 0]

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If you ask the five yr. old on Sunday morning, if he wants to go to church;as we perceive church; hard pews, long, boring sermons, what do you think his choice is going to be?
He looks over on the couch and sees the video game and thinks, "Hmmm, 3 hours without mom telling me to do this or that."

I don't get it. Considering body functions and improving the physical conditions (i.e. preventing 200lbs 10yo) going to church for three hours is not at all different than playing a video game for three hours.

And what if you ask the five yr. old on Sunday morning, if he wants to go to church OR if he wants to go to the beach to swim in the ocean and play voleyball with you? And which choice would be honestly better for preventing the conditions you described above?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[bjjman 0]

I believe good parenting and attending church have no correlation. In other words, there are good parents that take their kids to church, and good parents that don't. Likewise, there are bad parents that take their kids to church, and bad parents that don't.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[sandi 0]

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And what if you ask the five yr. old on Sunday morning, if he wants to go to church OR if he wants to go to the beach to swim in the ocean and play voleyball with you? And which choice would be honestly better for preventing the conditions you described above?

Being healthy and physically fit may prevent those conditions and improve quality of life, but it doesn't get you into heaven/paradise/desired afterlife.

[georgerussia 0]

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Being healthy and physically fit may prevent those conditions and improve quality of life, but it doesn't get you into heaven/paradise/desired afterlife.

Sure. But Royd's point was exactly about physical fitness. We could apply science to it - it could be studied, it could be measured, and we know what actions lead to improving the physical fitness.

Goind to heaven, however, is completely different issue. Nobody could say for sure there is Heaven, and nobody could prove that you need to do this and that to be there. There is no agreement even between different Christian religions on the topic, not to mention other religions. Also the "God works in misterious ways" quote means that no matter what you do and how good you are, there is simply no way to make sure you'll end up in Heaven. Maybe the God will only put rapists and serial killers in Heaven - after all, the God works in misterious ways, so it's definitely an option to consider.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[sandi 0]

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Being healthy and physically fit may prevent those conditions and improve quality of life, but it doesn't get you into heaven/paradise/desired afterlife.

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Sure. But Royd's point was exactly about physical fitness. We could apply science to it - it could be studied, it could be measured, and we know what actions lead to improving the physical fitness.

Goind to heaven, however, is completely different issue. Nobody could say for sure there is Heaven, and nobody could prove that you need to do this and that to be there. There is no agreement even between different Christian religions on the topic, not to mention other religions. Also the "God works in misterious ways" quote means that no matter what you do and how good you are, there is simply no way to make sure you'll end up in Heaven. Maybe the God will only put rapists and serial killers in Heaven - after all, the God works in misterious ways, so it's definitely an option to consider.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I don't believe in heaven (or hell). Given the options you presented, I would much rather see a child having some quality family time at the beach (or a museum, or a park, or at home).

[labrys 0]

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I saw a teenager yesterday walking down the street yesterday

I saw a teenager yesterday walking down the street tomorrow

Kids today have some really amazing ninja time shifting skilz.

Owned by Remi #?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I dont believe that learning about Jesus is ever a bad thing, no matter where the setting, but it is never good to use oppression.

I have never seen any church or religion which would encourage actual learning about Jesus. They only encourage remembering and frequently repeating their own teaching about Jesus, in most cases not even mentioning there are 100+ other teachings about Jesus, none of which could be proven to be true.

I dont think it is a bad thing to understand that we are dearly loved by that which created us. The truth is, that in order to recieve any kind of love, it must be believed. Jesus gives us not only a reason, but a depth of that love. The depth in love leaves you hungry. The deeper you go, the hungrier you get, fully satisfied and hungry at the same time. Love reveals its depth as literally limitless.

Love by nature desires to share and be shared. The reason the world is so hard is because it doesnt know how much it is loved. Why? Because it cant recieve something it doesnt believe. Love devours those who do not believe in it, and it ignites those who do. If/when you ever receieve this love, then you will know what sharing it is about and the true motive behind it.

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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I dont think it is a bad thing to understand that we are dearly loved by that which created us.

The problem in your quote is that before it happens, the following things must be proven:
1. "That" exist;
2. "That" created us;
3. "That" loves us;

So far nobody was able to prove beyond the reasonable doubt even the first one. There is absolutely no proof regarding the second one, and it's not generally possible to prove the third one. Therefore you're actually suggesting that "it's not bad to convert a child to a religious nut who will blindly believe whatever he's told", and this is not something I would agree is "not a bad thing".

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The truth is, that in order to recieve any kind of love, it must be believed.

Your logic is flawed. If you're saying the kid must believe that he will receive any love BEFORE he actually receives anything, you could say the same about evething around you. For example, you could say the kid must believe your microwave loves him - and it will work for them, since the prerequisite is that they believe in it. It does not mean, however, than the microwave could actually love anyone.

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Jesus gives us not only a reason, but a depth of that love. The depth in love leaves you hungry. The deeper you go, the hungrier you get, fully satisfied and hungry at the same time. Love reveals its depth as literally limitless.

You could say exactly the same about your microwave. In fact, it has a great advantage comparing to made-up Jesus - you do not have to prove the kids that your microwave exist. Could you show them your Jesus?

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Love by nature desires to share and be shared. The reason the world is so hard is because it doesnt know how much it is loved. Why? Because it cant recieve something it doesnt believe.

I wouldn't blame the world. The kids might consider it strange that your Jesus, who allegedly loves them so much, just let the kids in China to die in horrible death under collapsed childcare and school buildings. Then you'll have to mention (if you're honest) that your God hates gays, considers women inferior to men, and has wiped the whole population of Earth at least once. You may have really hard time to explain them that's the sign of true love. You must be programmed to see this as sign of great love.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

I dont believe you have learned humbleness just yet. You have yet to see that life is a gift. Unfortunately, you dont understand that faith gives power. Faith is about belief, belief is where the power is, it is the only way to recieve the love of God and it is the absolute best way to recieve it. I just cant explain this to you in a way that you would understand. I am sorry for that.... if you only knew what is being said...

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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I dont believe you have learned humbleness just yet. You have yet to see that life is a gift.

Will it be too much to ask you to address my actual response, and not my humbleness and seeings?
I'd especially like to see your comments about the God who loves us, and how different is his love comparing to Osama Bin Laden (maybe he also loves us in the same way as your God?)

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Unfortunately, you dont understand that faith gives power.

Definitely! Faith gives a lot of power to the shepperd, who could now easy manipulate his herd.

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Faith is about belief, belief is where the power is, it is the only way to recieve the love of God and it is the absolute best way to recieve it.

This is just crap.
I could 100% beleive that the power is in my microwave, and that is the absolute best way to recieve it - even though I do not have any evidence for this. But it doesn't affect anyone else.

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I just cant explain this to you in a way that you would understand.

I understand you perfectly.
You are saying that what you believe is right because you believe in it, no evidence needed. And we need just to believe in what you believe, and we won't need any evidence either.
This, however, doesn't make it right. The obvious example is translating your beliefs to microwave. My microwave is even better than Jesus - I could show it to anyone, and they could see it's here and it's real. Thus I could say that believing in love from my microwave made me and five million people happy, therefore is a right thing to do, and you should just accept love from my microwave, and open your heart to it. So believing in "Jesus loves you" is no different than believing in "my microwave loves you", and the evidence available actually favors microwave.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I dont believe you have learned humbleness just yet. You have yet to see that life is a gift.

Will it be too much to ask you to address my actual response, and not my humbleness and seeings?
I'd especially like to see your comments about the God who loves us, and how different is his love comparing to Osama Bin Laden (maybe he also loves us in the same way as your God?)

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>>>>Ok, Ill address your other issues next.

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Unfortunately, you dont understand that faith gives power.

Definitely! Faith gives a lot of power to the shepperd, who could now easy manipulate his herd.

>>>>Yes, he manipulates us into a path of righteousness and love, and peace which surpasses all understanding. You, like MANY do not understand the difference between the spirit and religion, Between freedom and slavery. But this is no suprise, this was the same problem in Jesus' time. Have you even read a Gospel?

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Faith is about belief, belief is where the power is, it is the only way to recieve the love of God and it is the absolute best way to recieve it.

This is just crap.
I could 100% beleive that the power is in my microwave, and that is the absolute best way to recieve it - even though I do not have any evidence for this. But it doesn't affect anyone else.

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>>>>If you really believe your microwave expresses the love of the creator, then I dont know what to say

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I just cant explain this to you in a way that you would understand.

I understand you perfectly.
You are saying that what you believe is right because you believe in it, no evidence needed. And we need just to believe in what you believe, and we won't need any evidence either.
This, however, doesn't make it right. The obvious example is translating your beliefs to microwave. My microwave is even better than Jesus - I could show it to anyone, and they could see it's here and it's real. Thus I could say that believing in love from my microwave made me and five million people happy, therefore is a right thing to do, and you should just accept love from my microwave, and open your heart to it. So believing in "Jesus loves you" is no different than believing in "my microwave loves you", and the evidence available actually favors microwave.

>>>>Im sorry, but I dont believe you understood anything I have said. Aparently you have kids? Do you love them? How do you know?

"We didn't start the fire"

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[georgerussia 0]

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Yes, he manipulates us into a path of righteousness and love, and peace which surpasses all understanding.

You mean the Pope? Humans have been using religion to manipulate people since the old times.

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You, like MANY do not understand the difference between the spirit and religion, Between freedom and slavery.

A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law.
(C) Wikipedia.

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But this is no suprise, this was the same problem in Jesus' time. Have you even read a Gospel?

Yes, of course. You might be surprised, but most people who're duscussing with Christians on Internet forums have read the Bible, and usually know much more about it than most Christians themselves.

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If you really believe your microwave expresses the love of the creator, then I dont know what to say

I don't understand you. You can't believe that a microwave - a real thing you personally could see and touch - could express the love of the creator. But somehow you have no problems to believe in some mythical Jesus expressing the love - and you personally have never seen or touched him, just read about him in the book full of "misunderstandings" and contradictions.

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Im sorry, but I dont believe you understood anything I have said.

That's because you need to open your heart and accept it. Truth is always difficult to accept, you need to believe in what I said.

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Aparently you have kids? Do you love them? How do you know?

Like my microwave, my kids are real, so it's easy to see just by checking my attitude to them. Your case, however, is different - you seem to love something you have never seen, and have no idea whether it exist or not.

PS. I still waiting for the previous reply.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I dont think it is a bad thing to understand that we are dearly loved by that which created us.

The problem in your quote is that before it happens, the following things must be proven:
1. "That" exist;
2. "That" created us;
3. "That" loves us;

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So far nobody was able to prove beyond the reasonable doubt even the first one. There is absolutely no proof regarding the second one, and it's not generally possible to prove the third one. Therefore you're actually suggesting that "it's not bad to convert a child to a religious nut who will blindly believe whatever he's told", and this is not something I would agree is "not a bad thing".

>>>>I dont believe in oppression, but I do believe that you should teach your children what is best so that they will at least have a foundation of a conscience. There is much you dont understand about the Gospel.

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The truth is, that in order to recieve any kind of love, it must be believed.

Your logic is flawed. If you're saying the kid must believe that he will receive any love BEFORE he actually receives anything, you could say the same about evething around you. For example, you could say the kid must believe your microwave loves him - and it will work for them, since the prerequisite is that they believe in it. It does not mean, however, than the microwave could actually love anyone.

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>>>>Im saying that the nature of love is that it must be believed to be recieved. There is something very deep that testifies to you that your loved. One of the greatest comforts in love is to not only know you are loved, but to know that what you love knows it is loved by you. There is no evidence, only the expression of a belief through action and words. You must understand the sharing relationship of true love.

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Jesus gives us not only a reason, but a depth of that love. The depth in love leaves you hungry. The deeper you go, the hungrier you get, fully satisfied and hungry at the same time. Love reveals its depth as literally limitless.

You could say exactly the same about your microwave. In fact, it has a great advantage comparing to made-up Jesus - you do not have to prove the kids that your microwave exist. Could you show them your Jesus?

>>>>Goodness sakes.

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Love by nature desires to share and be shared. The reason the world is so hard is because it doesnt know how much it is loved. Why? Because it cant recieve something it doesnt believe.

I wouldn't blame the world. The kids might consider it strange that your Jesus, who allegedly loves them so much, just let the kids in China to die in horrible death under collapsed childcare and school buildings.

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>>>>Im afraid because of blame you may never find peace. Look at your own life, give thanks for it, and if you really cared about those "less fortunate" why are you not over there helping? For you, im afraid it is easier to blame than to accept. If you think Gods job is to keep you from dying, then you are mistaken. Even Jesus died and rose again.

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Then you'll have to mention (if you're honest) that your God hates gays, considers women inferior to men, and has wiped the whole population of Earth at least once. You may have really hard time to explain them that's the sign of true love. You must be programmed to see this as sign of great love.

>>>>God hates sin. Sin is what he judged, sin is what he condemned. Sin is what keeps us seperated and enslaved. Sin is death and it is living within us, but just as death lives within us, through recieving grace, life also lives within. Sin is also what reveals grace to our hearts, without sin we would not have found his love. Right now, you think God is against you,and that you are against him, but if you knew what grace was, you would see something entirely different. One must confront himself with truth when seeking it, like an addict in denial....there is another life on the other side of denial. Coincidentally, I would be very interested to hear what your sign of great love is?

"We didn't start the fire"

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[Royd 0]

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Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I don't believe in heaven (or hell). Given the options you presented, I would much rather see a child having some quality family time at the beach (or a museum, or a park, or at home).

So, for you, it really is all about preventing them from hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

In today's world, given the option of going to the beach, sitting in the hot sun, and possibly getting some exercise, or sitting on your ass in your bedroom, playing video games, and stuffing your face full of Oreos, which one do your think the largest number will choose?

Remember, you're asking them what they want to do.





Search this forum this category all forums for All words Any words Whole Phrase (options)

[n23x 0]

As mentioned time and time before, there is no linkage between "my kids may choose church or not" AND "my kids can do whatever the fuck they want.

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So, for you, it really is all about preventing them from hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

As pointed out before, your kid could become just as much of a fatty at church as they can at home playing video games. At home playing video games, they at least get hand-eye coordination.

Or they could be outside playing, where they'll still have fun.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[bjjman 0]

Oh this thread is getting good. I love it!

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[StreetScooby 5]

I think yall should have sorted this out before you were married. Personally, I think your approach is reasonable. But if she's a devout Catholic, they are VERY BIG on raising their kids Catholic. You're not going to change that at this point in time, even at the cost of your marriage.

We are all engines of karma

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Yes, he manipulates us into a path of righteousness and love, and peace which surpasses all understanding.

You mean the Pope? Humans have been using religion to manipulate people since the old times.

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>>>>The pope! Im not catholic. I dont like alot of things the catholic church does. Youve read the Gospel, you tell me if the Catholic church represents Jesus. You clearly do not understand the difference between someone who follows a religion and someone who follows the spirit. Is there not a difference between one who practices what he preaches and one who does not? Look what Jesus says....

"23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

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A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law.
(C) Wikipedia.

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>>>>Great, even wikipedia doesnt understand what the spirit is How can an encyclopedia explain your love for your children? Gods love goes waaaaay beyond even that. Life is loves greatest gift.

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But this is no suprise, this was the same problem in Jesus' time. Have you even read a Gospel?

Yes, of course. You might be surprised, but most people who're duscussing with Christians on Internet forums have read the Bible, and usually know much more about it than most Christians themselves.

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>>>>You are right that many dont know or even read the Gospel, I am ashamed to say I was one of them, but not anymore, and clearly, you missed almost the entire point of it. In your definition, what is a Pharisee, as defined by Jesus...?

I don't understand you. You can't believe that a microwave - a real thing you personally could see and touch - could express the love of the creator. But somehow you have no problems to believe in some mythical Jesus expressing the love - and you personally have never seen or touched him, just read about him in the book full of "misunderstandings" and contradictions.

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Im sorry, but I dont believe you understood anything I have said.

That's because you need to open your heart and accept it. Truth is always difficult to accept, you need to believe in what I said.

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>>>>What exactly are you offering? I agree with you that truth is not easy to accept. I dont know about you, but I was a slave to sin, it ran my life. Alot of it was very pleasureful, but alot of it brought on an overwhelming feeling of heartache and death. Jesus understood me better than anyone ever has and through him allowing me to see the truth, he set me free. I am happier now than I ever have been. I am full of hope and love and my every desire is to become the righteousness of God. What I didnt see when I was in slavery was that a desire for righteousness is the greatest pleasure. There really is no other way to say it. I know the truth now, the only way I can "give that up" is to lie, and that goes against my every desire. So again, I ask you, what are you offering? You want me to join in with the lie again? What do you think life is all about? And why do you think you are so different from me? What do you offer?? Where is your wisdom, where is your truth????

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Aparently you have kids? Do you love them? How do you know?

Like my microwave, my kids are real, so it's easy to see just by checking my attitude to them. Your case, however, is different - you seem to love something you have never seen, and have no idea whether it exist or not.

>>>>Believe it or not, thats actually a pretty good answer (without the microwave thing). But, I believe if you thought about it for awhile, you may realize that your love for them goes deeper than just your attitude towards them.

PS. I still waiting for the previous reply.

>>>>which one?

"We didn't start the fire"

[sandi 0]

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Remember, you're asking them what they want to do.

I never said kids should be allowed to do whatever they want. In a previous post I stated that I do not think kids should be given free reign in decision making.

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In today's world, given the option of going to the beach, sitting in the hot sun, and possibly getting some exercise, or sitting on your ass in your bedroom, playing video games, and stuffing your face full of Oreos, which one do your think the largest number will choose?

Sitting in your bedroom, playing video games, and stuffing your face full of oreos wouldn't be among the choices in my house. As I said, I'm in favor of spending quality family time together. The weekends are usually the only days that the whole family is together. People should find an activity that they enjoy doing together. If that is going to church then that's fine.

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So, for you, it really is all about preventing them from hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

I'm not in favor of preventing anyone from hearing anything. I don't personally go to church, but I have no problem at all with people attending whatever church they choose to. As I stated earlier, parents make that decision and they do what they think is best for their own families.

[Nightingale 0]

Were you married in the Catholic church? If so, you probably had to sign something or promise something in your wedding that you would raise any children in the Catholic faith. If you made that promise to her, you should keep it. The kids will probably think for themselves eventually anyway, so go ahead and raise them Catholic, but teach them critical thinking and logic so they can examine things for themselves when they are of an appropriate age.

Also remember, forcing a kid to go to church is almost a surefire way to make sure they won't continue going as soon as there is nobody dragging them there. I went to a Catholic university, and about 80% of the "confirmed Catholics" there stopped going to church on week 1 of their freshman year.

[georgerussia 0]

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I dont believe in oppression, but I do believe that you should teach your children what is best so that they will at least have a foundation of a conscience. There is much you dont understand about the Gospel.

So if someone believes that it's best for them to get a bomb and destroy a lot of people and you'll go to Heaven - you think they should teach it to their kids?

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Im saying that the nature of love is that it must be believed to be recieved.

Not at all. We judge the person attitude by seeing and hearing how they behave toward us. You do not need someone to tell you that Hillary Clinton loves you, but you must believe in it in order to receive her love.

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There is something very deep that testifies to you that your loved. One of the greatest comforts in love is to not only know you are loved, but to know that what you love knows it is loved by you. There is no evidence, only the expression of a belief through action and words.

There is very good evidence, even scientific evidence. Do you know that your brain experiences the same feelings when you're sleeping and have a dream of someone loving you?

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Im afraid because of blame you may never find peace. Look at your own life, give thanks for it, and if you really cared about those "less fortunate" why are you not over there helping? For you, im afraid it is easier to blame than to accept. If you think Gods job is to keep you from dying, then you are mistaken. Even Jesus died and rose again.

Now when you got your sermons done, could you please provide a reasonable explanation why your God who deeply loves all of us (according to you) just let the Chinese children die? I would definitely save those children if I were omnipresent and omnipotent, even though I couldn't say I deeply love them all. So it shouldn't be a problem for your God, right? So where's his love?

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God hates sin. Sin is what he judged, sin is what he condemned. Sin is what keeps us seperated and enslaved. Sin is death and it is living within us, but just as death lives within us, through recieving grace, life also lives within. Sin is also what reveals grace to our hearts, without sin we would not have found his love.

Ungrounded; I do not feel separated and enslaved, and I bet you can't prove your point. And the sins which keep me separated and enslaved, I suspect, are that I wear together clothes made from wool and cotton, eat crawfish and work on Saturdays.

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Right now, you think God is against you

No, I don't think so. Do you think my microwave hates you?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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The pope! Im not catholic. I dont like alot of things the catholic church does.

I bet Catholic church doesn't like a lot of things your church does, so you're even.

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Youve read the Gospel, you tell me if the Catholic church represents Jesus.

Not only I read the Gospels, I also studied several religions. It was long time ago, but I could tell you right now that EACH of them says that they're the only true religion, and therefore only they represent Jesus. The truth is that the Bible is not a set of straightforward rules - in fact it is full of things which could be interpreted in a lot of different ways. As a result you now have more than 100(!) different religions - all of them based on the Bible. And of course each of them says (and could prove it with appropriate interpretation) that their way to follow Jesus is the only right way, and therefore this is the place you have to go and give your generous contributions to.

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You clearly do not understand the difference between someone who follows a religion and someone who follows the spirit.

The one who follows religion is a believer.
The one who follows a spirit is a ghost hunter :P

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Great, even wikipedia doesnt understand what the spirit is How can an encyclopedia explain your love for your children?

It cannot because you (intentionally?) mix incompatible things. Encyclopedia explains what the love is. It doesn't explain how you love your children or your Jesus.

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Gods love goes waaaaay beyond even that.

Sure, 70 thousand people in China can already confirm that. Probably they were all sinners.

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You are right that many dont know or even read the Gospel, I am ashamed to say I was one of them, but not anymore, and clearly, you missed almost the entire point of it.

I'm sure you think so. As I said before, every religion based on the Bible teaches that they are the only one who interprets the Bible correctly, and everyone else is "misunderstanding", "ignoring" or "not seeing the Truth".

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In your definition, what is a Pharisee, as defined by Jesus...?

What for? I don't want to start a theological debate, it doesn't make any sense. As I said before, there is a lot of interpretations for almost everything in the Bible, and there is no way person A could prove that their interpretation is correct, and the interpretation B is not. Thus I prefer not to discuss the Bible quotes, and concentrate on more important things, like the existense of the God itself.

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What exactly are you offering? I agree with you that truth is not easy to accept. I dont know about you, but I was a slave to sin, it ran my life. Alot of it was very pleasureful, but alot of it brought on an overwhelming feeling of heartache and death. Jesus understood me better than anyone ever has and through him allowing me to see the truth, he set me free.

Basically what really happened, you were TOLD that you were slave to sin, and before this had no idea about it. And you were TOLD that if you do this, this and that, your heart will open, Jesus/Krishna/Odin will come to it and will make you feel better. Nothing, however, really changed. You're no different from a poor man who was hypnotized to think he became rich after reading the Bible. He would come here and write how reading the Bible made him rich. Would be he lying? No; he believes in it. However, does it make things true? No, it does not.

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So again, I ask you, what are you offering? You want me to join in with the lie again? What do you think life is all about? And why do you think you are so different from me? What do you offer?? Where is your wisdom, where is your truth????

I offer you to accept the love of my microwave. I have accepted it, and my mind has been freed, my life improved, I became rich, married a beautyful girl and has gorgeous kids. I know the truth now, and my truth is more truthworthy than your truth, and in fact it's the only truth in this world. I'm now saved, and will go to Heaven, and I want you to go to Heaven as well. All you have to do is open your heart and accept the love of my microwave. As soon as you believes my microwave loves you and frees you you'll feel the love, and feel the freedom - I promise - or your money back.

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Believe it or not, thats actually a pretty good answer (without the microwave thing). But, I believe if you thought about it for awhile, you may realize that your love for them goes deeper than just your attitude towards them.

No, it does not. Basically everything you feel is a chemical reaction in your brain, so it doesn't go anywhere deeper. Read this for start. I apologize it's basically layman level, but I only run a quick search. Did you know those things are studied?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[StreetScooby 5]

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I offer you to accept the love of my microwave.

LOL

I spent many years of my life sorting through my views on religion. The point I reached is - if freewill isn't purely a physical thing, then God is best viewed in our language as a verb. It's a great river we're all in. Stay in your inner tube, watch out for the big rocks, and keep the cooler close by if needed. If freewill is completely biochemically driven, same conclusion applies

We are all engines of karma

[itzibitzius 0]

There has been alot said here, I've kinda lost track. There is a lot of talk about love and when you feel it and stuff but that can be all a bit abstract for someone who doesn't 'feel it'. How about looking at history and facts?

You talk about a 'mythical Jesus'. We know Jesus existed. He was recorded by Romans as not only a priest in Israel, but somebody who actually healed people and stuff. And if we know he died then why wasn't his body in the tomb? Surely his body wouldn't have been stolen because everyone would want it as proof that either he was dead or alive. And he showed himself to at least 500 people after he rose again. The records we have of these events were all written within 60 years of his death and some of Paul's letters were written within 3 years. These can't have been tainted by time. The only records of Alexander the Great were written 400 years after his death and we take them as fact.

How about Florida? Did you know 13 people have been raised from the dead in the past couple of months in Jesus' name? You can't just ignore that. Just yesterday people were healed in my church in a normal service. And it's not a big church. These are people everyone there knows. God moves today in amazing ways. Not just mysterious ways . In reply to that comment a while back the mysterious ways aren't like sending all serial killers to heaven! His ways are the ones that we might not understand when they're happening but we can see were good when it's all over. And they never contradict what God says in the Bible. So that's not gonna happen...

On a different note.... I've just signed up to DZ.com and was wondering how you add an avatar? I can't seem to find it in my account settings...

[jakee 1,500]

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How is any of this related to church attendance? Are you saying childhood obesity and illiteracy are the result of not going to church? Do you know that the kids in your examples have never been to church?

If you ask the five yr. old on Sunday morning, if he wants to go to church;as we perceive church; hard pews, long, boring sermons, what do you think his choice is going to be?

He looks over on the couch and sees the video game and thinks, "Hmmm, 3 hours without mom telling me to do this or that."

False dichotomy alert! False dichotomy alert!

How about this scenario - kid can either go to church with mom for three hours of sitting on his ass, or dad can take him to play touch football/softball/whatever and he runs around getting great excercise... See - church contributes to childhood obesity!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?