Christianity - it now makes so much more sense

[rynodigsmusic 0]

There's absolutely no coherent explanation for that and, as such, nullifies itself (at least to me) due to laughability. You worship it but cannot even explain it.

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>>>>Explain love to me. I have found love as a hunger, people here have heard me say that before. The more I hunger, the more I am filled, constantly hungry and satisfied at the same time...fully sustained by a satisfying love which promises more, and provides undeniably in that promise.

God is spirit, life is spirit, love is spirit. When I talk about the other side of the door, I am not talking about a place in existance, but rather a place in the heart.
Cryptic nonsense. The heart is a muscle. If you're speaking of some figurative spirit-world vessel in each human that desires to be loved by a creator who only reveals himself through hand-me-down literature and expect other people to understand and accept it, you have to do a better job of illustrating it. That's always been one of my many problems with Bible teachings, everything is metaphor and parable. Nobody has ever been able to just come right out and say what they're trying to say!

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>>>>Of course you know why that is right, if your familiar with the bible anyway, Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophets before him. They prophesied that he would utter mysteries hidden since the beginning. The wisdom revealed in the parables is very profound and has changed the lives of countless individuals throughout time. But even more important. Love is strengthened in faith, faith is stronger in those who believe and have not seen. It is difficult to cultivate faith when youve already seen something, but if you take nothing else out of this, at least take Love is strengthened in faith, then you may understand the creators purpose for remaining hidden.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but this has got to be one of the most incoherent and pointless paragraphs I've ever read. What does it mean? What are you trying to say? To say that love is a manifestation of inspired thought and then talk about how it "desires to be loved" is like saying that hot dogs are a manifestation of a pig's happiness and hot dogs desire to be eaten. Actually, I have fewer problems with that rationale.

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>>>>I have a crooked smile on my face, not sure if its cause that was funny or just weird. Im sorry you didnt understand what I was saying. Love does have a nature. It inspires beautiful feelings of euphoria, or completely devestates and destroys, Id say its pretty powerful stuff on any scale, the scientific one included. Much more powerful than a pig and a hotdog

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Who "sheds" innocence? Who makes a conscious decision as an eight-year-old (or whatever your arbitrary "age of accountability" happens to be) to not accept love in its fullest measure? Grace doesn't change lives. It's hope. When people "find" religion or spirituality they're building hope on the idea of their existence beyond this existence. It's hubris that makes us want to live forever in one way or another. Believing in something that promises to make that happen changes lives - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. It can go either way, really.

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>>>>Your paritally right as I see it. Love has a huge impact on hope. We dont only hope we will be in Heaven when we die, we hope we will recieve the full measure of this love that is being revealled to us right here on earth. But there is a difference in hoping for something and waiting on it, and hoping for something just to hope. One will empower us to live brighter and fuller lives till the very end, the other will just be a small light that may or may not be there. Both are incredibly powerful, but only one truly empowers us to the fullness of life.

Wow. The comparison you're drawing here is, at best, incomprehensible. I'm not jabbing at you, but if this is a major point of the discussion for you could you please try to reword it so that we can figure out what you're trying to convey?

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>>>>It is very simple. It takes life to make life yes? It takes a grain of wheat planted in the ground to make more wheat yes? It takes love to make love. Seems Very comprehensible to me.

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I never said I was an educated adult!

That may be the problem with organized religions and the literature upon which they're founded. I was told once by an ordained minister that I was "over thinking" things and that's why I couldn't accept Christianity. But if it's possible to over think your religion, then your religion is designed for people who follow blindly without questioning. The Bible constantly refers to everyone as "sheep" and "children." Pardon me for saying so, but that doesn't denote innocence and purity to me, it denotes pliability. Those two entities are the most likely to just go with the flow and do what they're told and not question why they're doing it. And that's exactly why Christians have a get-them-while-they're-young-and-impressionable policy for recruitment.

>>>>That is an interesting statement. I am open to all words of wisdom coming from anywhere at anytime. What that minister was telling you was the truth. There is a stigma going around with the so called intelligent and wise in the world, that those who believe are not wise and have not searched, yet some of the greatest thinkers in history have been believers of something or another. Even if you believe in nothing, you still believe in something. And if man was so intelligent, why is it that the true wisdom which is revealed is often so simple that it is overlooked by people trying to complicate it? I understand your desire for evidence to believe, but if you havent even tried the evidence that Jesus offers, how can you say there is no evidence? Jesus came to baptize repentant sinners in the Holy Spirit. The evidence in Christianity, (since many wont take our testimonys on it), is found in sincere repentance and acceptance of the Holy Spirit in Jesus. It is a shame that somewehre down the line you found a bitterness toward Jesus, or at least toward those who were representing him at the time.

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that's not me. I'm a reasonable human being who likes to question the things around me and find out how things work and why. Even Jesus questioned authority and told his disciples to do the same! But Christians say it's OK to question authority...just not God's.

>>>>I believe I have questioned everything my mind was confronted with, and still do, its just that the spirit of God is spiritual and it is very hard to disprove Jesus when what is of the world tries communicate with what is of the spirit. I think you may underestimate the power of the revealed spirit. Its so powerful that you cant really deny it. In any event, I have been engaged over and over again by similar individuals such as yourself and I have listened, thought, and still, the word of God rings true. When your asking questions about life, your answers come from life, when your asking questions about science, your answers come from science. Science, or mans explanation, has done nothing for me in my questions about life, and it seems their questions were not my questions anyway. I believe Life is a Miracle, MANY scientists do not. Just this difference alone is going to spawn different questions.

>>>>Understanding love is what God is all about. Receiving the love of a freind who gave his life for you because he loved you so much is what recieving Christ is all about. Then he reveals he is the embodiment of the Love of God and tells us that very love is Limitless. Everything God made, he made out of love for the purpose of loving, both good and bad. Humans were not only created to love, but to be loved as that is goodnesses greatest attribute. Even people outside of Christianity at least submit to something universally good within us and within nature.

"We didn't start the fire"

[livendive 8]

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I live by the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what they wilt shall be the whole of the law".

While I think highly of the rede and include its fundamental concept of libertarianism in my personal moral code, I don't consider it the be all end all of wise decision making. Sometimes harm is justifiable, e.g. in self-defense, and sometimes it is unavoidable, e.g. in selecting which employees to lay off. So while the rede is perhaps the broadest reaching religious credo, it is still insufficient as a sole source of morality.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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[reply
Sorry, but it is clear you havent read a Gospel, and I dont know why you would speak so against it if you havent even read it. Sounds a bit disturbing to me.

Actually old chap, I was raised by Catholics and educated privately at school run my an Irish Catholic order of preists. I took communion, was confirmed, and served on the altar, as well as taking religious studies for many years. I have more than a working knowledge of scripture, which I'm trying to purge to be honest to make room for normal stuff.

I just always had the nagging suspicion that it was all BS. As I grew older, I became convinced it was just all nonsense. I ditched it all, and have never looked back. It's great to live without fear.

I live by the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what they wilt shall be the whole of the law".

Works great.

[livendive 8]

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Coincidentally though, the wiccan rede is simialr to the satanic bible yes? So you went from Jesus to satan? Just trying to see if I got this right. Doing whatever we desire is great, but might be a bit ignorant to think it doesnt harm anyone.

No. Wicca is not Satanism and the rede is basically the Wiccan version of the golden rule.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rynodigsmusic 0]

[No. Wicca is not Satanism and the rede is basically the Wiccan version of the golden rule.

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Well I dont really agree with that. As that same rule is in Laveys satanic bible as well. Many wiccans dont acknowledge satan as a diety, but that doesnt mean they dont follow his ways. Satan is all about the worship of himself and his followers worship him best by worshiping themselves as well. Im sorry, but I also dont agree that the rede is any sort of or to any extent a "version" of the Golden Rule (Jesus' do unto others). It may be the wiccans golden rule, maybe thats what you meant?

"We didn't start the fire"

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[Muenkel 0]

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I'm all for our freedom of verbal and written expression. I'm also all for censoring ourselves when we know our expression will be highly offensive to our fellow posters. There was nothing to be gained by this thread except to mock what a segment of our population hold very dear. This thread was not started to discuss the validity of Christianity but rather with malice.

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Malice is a rather strong word, kind of like the poster above who said I posted it in rage. In reality, I felt neither malice nor rage and they certainly weren't what prompted my post. Taking a wider view than the small community of dz.com, Christianity is a belief system many people subscribe to. There are also a large number of people who find many of the concepts contained therein completely absurd. I thought this was a humorous expression of the absurdity many of us see in the dogma and my intent was to entertain those people. It was not my intent to offend you, and while not expected, the possibility exists that you or someone else could have gotten a better idea of *why* many of us find some basic concepts of Christianity a bit ridiculous. Like I said, that was just possible, not expected, and it doesn't appear to have had that effect on anyone.

As for the broader discussion with regard to "belief", my question is if belief is what makes life so wonderful, does it stand to reason that the less believable something is, the greater the payoff is for believing it anyhow?

OK, fair enough. I believe you. I've read enough of your posts over the years to know you're an honest poster and you really don't set out to offend.

Normally, I try not to go ballistic in these threads; but I just cringed when I saw that attachment.

I don't know if you'll understand this, but being a hopefully good practising Catholic, I have an enormous love for Jesus Christ and the sacrifice I believe he did for me.

As for the question you posted, I would say yes in a general sense. On a personal level in regard to the topic at hand, Jesus is not less believable to me and I'm not believing in Him anyhow. Regarding the payoff, for me, it's the greatest payoff.

Keep in mind that I'm speaking for myself. I'm not trying to sway anyone in any direction. That would be futile and quite honestly not my job. Faith, religion, whatever is a very personal journey.

On a friendlier note to you Dave. I've always respected you. Please don't take my reaction to one post of yours as my overall view of you.

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Chris

[CoderHead 0]

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Well I dont really agree with that. As that same rule is in Laveys satanic bible as well.

Then why is satanism bad? It's obviously got sound principles. Eh, forget it, don't answer that one.

Look, every time you make a post it goes something like this: "Love, love, love, faith. Faith, belief, faith, love, love. Love love love faith love!" I'm honestly not able to follow anything you're saying. Anyway, this thread went way off track and has become pointless. I still say the original post was funny. Period.

He who laughs last didn't get the joke.
Freefall Express

[livendive 8]

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On a friendlier note to you Dave. I've always respected you. Please don't take my reaction to one post of yours as my overall view of you.

Likewise. I don't think any of us can know with 100% certainty that we hold the correct views on life, the universe, and everything. We should go with what feels most right to us individually and it's not surprising to me in the least that we will sometimes have drastically different views on things. As far as I'm concerned, we're cool.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Muenkel 0]

Amen brutha!

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Chris

[downwardspiral 0]

get a room you two!

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[bjjman 0]

Haha . I was going to make a smart-ass remark, but decided not to. But that was funny.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[downwardspiral 0]

Well I was going to make a serious remark about how beautiful that was but then I vomited in my mouth a little bit so I went with something else.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[livendive 8]

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get a room you two!

Hey, while Muenkel may be dain-bramaged, he's still not so psycho that I could possibly mistake him for a female.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[maadmax 0]

Agreed! Faith by itself is worthless. It is the object of faith that has value.


But in your case the object of faith has no proven value until you believe in it***

Damn, we have agreed on two things in a row. You are right. The object of my faith has no value to someone who does not believe in it. But has great intrinsic worth to someone who UNDERSTANDS what is being said and believes!

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[kallend 2,026]

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Agreed! Faith by itself is worthless. It is the object of faith that has value.


But in your case the object of faith has no proven value until you believe in it***

Damn, we have agreed on two things in a row. You are right. The object of my faith has no value to someone who does not believe in it. But has great intrinsic worth to someone who UNDERSTANDS what is being said and believes!

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You need a special kind of faith to UNDERSTAND something that defies logic and for which no proof exists.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CoderHead 0]

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You need a special kind of faith to UNDERSTAND something that defies logic and for which no proof exists.

Yeah, I think people are using the word "understand" very liberally around here. Honestly, if you could UNDERSTAND god, you would have ascended already like Elijah.

He who laughs last didn't get the joke.
Freefall Express

[maadmax 0]

You need a special kind of faith to UNDERSTAND something that defies logic and for which no proof exists***

Yes you do. And it was very difficult at first. But the need in my life was great, so I persevered. Once I began putting it together and my life became transformed, the proof became self evident(a priori).

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[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Well I dont really agree with that. As that same rule is in Laveys satanic bible as well.

Then why is satanism bad? It's obviously got sound principles. Eh, forget it, don't answer that one.

Look, every time you make a post it goes something like this: "Love, love, love, faith. Faith, belief, faith, love, love. Love love love faith love!" I'm honestly not able to follow anything you're saying. Anyway, this thread went way off track and has become pointless. I still say the original post was funny. Period.

You know, more often than not it is pride not "over thinking" that keeps people away from God. Just imagine how insignificant our little lives are. Why would God reveal himself to someone who believes he is greater than what created him? No. God instead reveals himself to the humble. Im sorry you believe that was funny, so I guess you may be on the side of ignorance as well. Not just ignorance against God, but ignorant to what might be cosidered incredibly offensive to others. Why not put a picture of a hung slave up there and make fun of that? Im sure some sick and twisted individual can create some "hilarious" caption to accompany it. I am sorry if this sounds too bold, but it is just how I feel at the moment. So forgive my boldness, but at least respect the content as someone you are just having a conversation with. Nice conversation by the way.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Well I dont really agree with that. As that same rule is in Laveys satanic bible as well.

Then why is satanism bad? It's obviously got sound principles. Eh, forget it, don't answer that one.

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Your right I wont answer that one. But the theme of the statement was set on ghdiver believing that wiccan was not similar to satanism, and I disagreed.

"We didn't start the fire"

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[shropshire 0]

Judge : "I belive that you sire are guilty of a crime"

Religious Person : "It's a fair cop".

Non-religious Person : "So, proove it!!"

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[gjhdiver 0]

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[No. Wicca is not Satanism and the rede is basically the Wiccan version of the golden rule.

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Well I dont really agree with that. As that same rule is in Laveys satanic bible as well. Many wiccans dont acknowledge satan as a diety, but that doesnt mean they dont follow his ways. Satan is all about the worship of himself and his followers worship him

OK, calm down here. Wicca has NOTHNG to do with Satanism, and the rede has NOTHING to do with Satanism. Both predate Christianity and Satanism by many centuries. Wicca is essentially an earth and nature philosophy, and Christianity co-opted many of it's practices and festivals. Easter is one of them for instance, as is Christmas.

Also, don't put any stock in LaVey's dog and pony show. You can't put any more stock in something he made up from whole cloth in the 1960's, any more than something that was made up of whole cloth 2000 years ago. A true Satanist doesn't actually believe in an entity called Satan, as it's a belief system centered around pure self worship. The Christian church has made a habit of conflating every other pre Christian belief system with Satanism, which is a concept they themselves invented. It was used as a tool for the forcible conversion and the persecution and wholesale murder of literally millions of people.

If you live your life by the rede, you don't need imaginary friends, as you'll have plenty of real ones right here and now.

I'd just like to add that the Catholic fathers who educated me did not lead me astray in any way. They were a loving, attentive, kind order of men. I just realised that despite that, they were peddling a load of superstitious bullshit that I couldn't swallow.

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[CoderHead 0]

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Satan is all about the worship of himself and his followers worship him best by worshiping themselves as well.

Oh no. And what is the Christian God? The entire religion is based on the commands to worship, praise, and - at every conceivable opportunity - extol the virtues of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. As a Christian, that's your sole function, is it not? Then, when you go to Heaven, your mission never changes. It's all about how great God art, from wall to wall. Jesus teaches to forsake yourself and your family and friends in pursuit of God's righteousness - which no human could ever hope to attain ("None are righteous, no not one."). And if it were possible to attain righteousness, then what? You get a special place in Heaven, where all are supposedly equal? What?

I'm sorry if it offends, but if there were ever an organization based on the ego of a single being, it's Christianity.

He who laughs last didn't get the joke.
Freefall Express

[maadmax 0]

Oh no. And what is the Christian God? The entire religion is based on the commands to worship, praise, and - at every conceivable opportunity - extol the virtues of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. As a Christian, that's your sole function, is it not? Then, when you go to Heaven, your mission never changes. It's all about how great God art, from wall to wall. Jesus teaches to forsake yourself and your family and friends in pursuit of God's righteousness - which no human could ever hope to attain ("None are righteous, no not one."). And if it were possible to attain righteousness, then what? You get a special place in Heaven, where all are supposedly equal? What?***

What you are referring to is self denial. It is a spiritual virtue. Jesus told us to deny ourselves and follow Him. The more you can remove yourself from the center stage of your created reality, the clearer you can see and perceive reality around you. It is also called humility. It is of course the opposite of being egocentric.

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[Muenkel 0]

Oh no Dave! We broke the #1 rule of SC.

We took the higher road.

I do have to admit that the 'vomit in the mouth' comment was kinda funny.

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Chris

[georgerussia 0]

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Damn, we have agreed on two things in a row. You are right. The object of my faith has no value to someone who does not believe in it. But has great intrinsic worth to someone who UNDERSTANDS what is being said and believes!

Then you've just said that your faith is no different from someone who believes into Zeus, Odin, or Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Basically this means that your Jesus cannot do any harm to me unless I believe he could. Which contradicts completely with all Christians teach.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *