Do atheists/agnostics believe in.....

[rynodigsmusic 0]

However most people are very reasonable, and would accept the reasonable evidence.

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I dont know about that. There have been documented "miracles" in our time that have shown people coming back to life and many other miraculous things that cant be explained. The skeptic will only change when he decides to believe.

My main point was that faith is what gives the spirit power and that man uses that same power to accomplish and progress in many ways.

Is the testimony of an eyewitness hearsay? I really dont know. Im talking about in our courts today??

"We didn't start the fire"

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[quade 4]

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What do you know about enlightenment?

Ah, I see. You've reached a state of "enlightenment" that is somehow beyond the comprehension of mere non-believers. Great. Some day I'll have to try to climb that mountain top upon which you have set yourself and maybe I can seek your vast wisdom.

On the other hand . . . maybe I LIKE to see the actual evidence of the wonders of the universe rather than have them handed down to me via mythology.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[georgerussia 0]

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I dont know about that. There have been documented "miracles" in our time that have shown people coming back to life and many other miraculous things that cant be explained.

Unfortunately there were no miracles, which would be properly studied, documented and repeated, to confirm that it's truly a miracle. Having people coming back to life is not a miracle - it's something which happens every day in almost every hospital. The potential of human body to recover from damages is impressive, and the fact someone said you gonna die, and you didn't does not make it a miracle. "Things that can't be explained" is very broad definition - some of them could be considered a miracle (like resurrecting the dead), some do not.

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Is the testimony of an eyewitness hearsay? I really dont know. Im talking about in our courts today??

No, a direct testimony is not hearsay. The problem is that you never had a direct testimony. You have something which is claimed to be a copy of the original testimony, but you have no idea whether the copy is valid, whether the original testimony was recorded properly, or whether the original testimony ever happened at all.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[jakee 1,489]

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Thats clever, youve managed to take a perfectly good argmument and make it sound as if the other side has no point. But you, and others who have tried, have still not convinced me, I mean seriously, you havent even come close.

No-one's been able to convince you that your own contentless arguments are nonsensical? Colour me surprised

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[crwtom 0]

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I dont know about that. There have been documented "miracles" in our time that have shown people coming back to life and many other miraculous things that cant be explained. The skeptic will only change when he decides to believe.

My main point was that faith is what gives the spirit power and that man uses that same power to accomplish and progress in many ways.

so if something happens that you don't understand from your previous every day experiences you react with a stories of faith and such.

.... odd

I usually try to understand what I see better and explore it. (If I'm interested and find the time and means)


Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[stitch 0]

Don't turn this into a geek fest. You're intelligent enough to know what I was implying.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[FallloutboyDAoC 0]

this 1 time i was sitting in my house alone during a thunderstorm, and the lights went out for a few seconds. when they came back on, one of the outlets had water coming out of it. i was scared shitless thinking about the girl from the exorcist. then i realized the porch roof leading into the house was just leaking

[quade 4]

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Don't turn this into a geek fest. You're intelligent enough to know what I was implying.

Yes, but are you intelligent enough to understand what she was actually pointing out?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[maadmax 0]

Everyone does. The only thing which is different what kind of evidence you need. You would probably have hard time to believe in Jesus if there were no Bible, for example - so even you need evidence to believe. And for you the Bible is part of the evidence***

The evidence that convinced me was how the Wisdom of God allowed me to overcome my self destructive thoughts and behaviors. It has permitted me to live a productive life instead of wasting it. If you are perfect , in no need of God's help, you are very fortunate. I would think that you would reach out a compassionate hand with your perfected wisdom and help the rest of us that are not so blessed, instead of attacking the only life line that works.


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[rynodigsmusic 0]

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What do you know about enlightenment?

Ah, I see. You've reached a state of "enlightenment" that is somehow beyond the comprehension of mere non-believers. Great. Some day I'll have to try to climb that mountain top upon which you have set yourself and maybe I can seek your vast wisdom.

On the other hand . . . maybe I LIKE to see the actual evidence of the wonders of the universe rather than have them handed down to me via mythology.

What did I touch a sensative spot with you or something? I am in speakers corner right?? This is an argument in which you have not presented anything substantial to me that would make me change my mind about the applications of faith. Its my belief that believing in an idea or a dream against all odds and in the face of failure, against not finding "evidence" is one of the greatest applications of faith in the human spirit. I simply asked you what you knew about enlightenment, so Ill ask again. What do you know about enlightenment. This is a sincere question.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Having people coming back to life is not a miracle - it's something which happens every day in almost every hospital. The potential of human body to recover from damages is impressive, and the fact someone said you gonna die, and you didn't does not make it a miracle. "Things that can't be explained" is very broad definition - some of them could be considered a miracle (like resurrecting the dead), some do not.

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Of course your right. But the point is if you saw it with your own eyes would you then believe it was a miracle, or would you remain a skeptic because you sincerely want to be? I guess there are those who believe, those who dont, those who wont, and those who cant. I would hate to be one who cant becasue I have trained myself so long to not believe. Im not saying that you are that person by the way.

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Is the testimony of an eyewitness hearsay? I really dont know. Im talking about in our courts today??

No, a direct testimony is not hearsay. The problem is that you never had a direct testimony. You have something which is claimed to be a copy of the original testimony, but you have no idea whether the copy is valid, whether the original testimony was recorded properly, or whether the original testimony ever happened at all.

Yes again, but the testimonys given in the new testament are very personal, very strong, and done under the eye of God. That means that if someone is a true believer and they lie about something, they dont only lie about something, they lie under the eye of God. And when I say tesify, I testify to what I know, not only what I have seen. I know the power of the spirit and testify to that like many others do. Do I ask for money? NO. The only thing I have in this life that is worth anything at all is the Holy Spirit, so the greatest thing I can give someone is my testimony. It is a shame that many have been turned off of Jesus becasue of hypocrisy and self rightesness. Coincidentally, the very two things Jesus was most against.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

.... odd

I usually try to understand what I see better and explore it. (If I'm interested and find the time and means)

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And that is awsome. I am a person that sees life as a miracle. I am exploring this miracle with all that is in me, down to the deepest conncetion I have with it. The deeper I go, the deeper it gets. There comes a point where a man just accepts or doesnt. I accept life as a miracle, to me, science doesnt even come close to sustaining the wonder I have. Its like writing a song. The best songs come from somewhere deep in the heart. You can write a good song if you do it technically, but the best ones come from the heart. Just like the best life comes from the heart. There are those who do not believe in such a place, they simply call it a muscle that pumps blood. That is sad to me.

"We didn't start the fire"

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[Hausse 0]

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the Big Bang Theory of the origin of the Universe?

Yes

and if so, why?

Because science says so and everybody can come to the same conclusion assuming that he has an open mind and enough knowledge.

(and if they do, do they believe that the Big Bang event had a cause, or did not have a cause?)

It doesn't really matter all that much. Searching for a cause just means you either have to make up one (then you pick god) or you just realize we don't know.

[georgerussia 0]

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The evidence that convinced me was how the Wisdom of God allowed me to overcome my self destructive thoughts and behaviors.

"Wisdom of God" is something like "conscience of Santa Claus". This is not evidence, it's your beliefs.

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It has permitted me to live a productive life instead of wasting it. If you are perfect , in no need of God's help, you are very fortunate. I would think that you would reach out a compassionate hand with your perfected wisdom and help the rest of us that are not so blessed, instead of attacking the only life line that works.

Why should I? You already have your Jesus.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Squeak 17]

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instead of attacking the only life line that works.

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[Cough splutter bullshit]
..that may be the crutch you use for yourself, which is fine,
but don't profess that your way is the ONLY way.
That's just ignorant

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[bjjman 0]

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Do atheists/agnostics believe in the Big Bang Theory of the origin of the Universe?

and if so, why?

(and if they do, do they believe that the Big Bang event had a cause, or did not have a cause?)

I'm going away for a few days & won't have access to the Internet, so I won't respond for awhile.

Of course; it's scientifically accepted. If something dispels it tomorrow, then I won't believe it any more. That's the beauty of science - it constantly evolves based on available evidence.

A cause? Not sure, but I don't think it's scientifically possible to determine this. That's where religion comes in.

For the record, I'm agnostic.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[bjjman 0]

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A theory is just that. I believe more evidence needs to be presented. Although, with the evidence that has been presented, I don't understand how people can continue to cling to the whole "7 days" explanation.

A theory is a theory because there is plenty of evidence that has not been refuted. You must be thinking of a hypothesis. And note it is the "Big Bang Theory," not the "Big Bang Hypothesis."

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...which might go a long way to understanding gravity in something other than Newtonian a fashion.

There was this guy named Albert...

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It just seems a bit silly to me that with the drastic measures science goes to, they dont invite even the possibility of a Wisdom or inteligence beyond man.

The possibility of a "Wisdom" is not within the scope of science as there would be no way of proving it.

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...science doesnt even come close to sustaining the wonder I have.

Have you studied much science? It is amazing. Did you know that if I drove toward you at 150 mi/s and you drove toward me at 75 mi/s we would not be approaching each other at 225 mi/s? We'd actually be coming toward each other at only 170 mi/s!

(Anybody that knows the equation, feel free to check my math.)

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[quade 4]

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Have you studied much science? It is amazing. Did you know that if I drove toward you at 150 mi/s and you drove toward me at 75 mi/s we would not be approaching each other at 225 mi/s? We'd actually be coming toward each other at only 170 mi/s!

(Anybody that knows the equation, feel free to check my math.)

Actually, you'd have to be going MUCH faster before any relativistic effects kick in that would be noticeable without some instrumentation. The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second, so your basic assumption is off by several orders of magnitude.

Still, you have the right idea.
2/3c + 2/3c = 1c

Weird, but true.

Well, sort of . . .

From the point of view of each individual frame of reference the above is true. The problem is there are other ways to look at it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[georgerussia 0]

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Of course your right. But the point is if you saw it with your own eyes would you then believe it was a miracle, or would you remain a skeptic because you sincerely want to be?

Yes, if I consider it a miracle created by a superpower. After all, we know that we could get someone back from clinical death using proper techniques, and we could turn water into wine by adding squeezed grapes and waiting a couple of months. However for anyone there is always a miracle they will believe, and to find one should not be a problem for a superpower.

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I guess there are those who believe, those who dont, those who wont, and those who cant.

I would disagree. We have seen people "converted" between all of those.

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Yes again, but the testimonys given in the new testament are very personal, very strong, and done under the eye of God.

None of those are relevant. I'll repeat: in order to make your copy acceptable as evidence, you need to establish the following:
- The fact that your copy is an authentic copy/translation of the original record. This is NOT easy to prove, since there is no certified original record.
- The fact that original record represented a true and complete testimony (for example, the one who made the record didn't misunderstood the terms or even skipped some phrases altogether). This is IMHO impossible to prove.
- The fact that original testimony existed, and the creator of original record didn't just think it out.

As you see, it is definitely not easy.

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That means that if someone is a true believer and they lie about something, they dont only lie about something, they lie under the eye of God. And when I say tesify, I testify to what I know, not only what I have seen. I know the power of the spirit and testify to that like many others do.

You cannot testify this, since it would be your conclusion. If a kid knows about Santa, and finds a Christmas gift in the morning, then he could believe Santa exists. However all he could only testify that he found this gift. He cannot testify that Santa exists, since it would be his conclusion.

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It is a shame that many have been turned off of Jesus becasue of hypocrisy and self rightesness.

Many smart people have been turned off of Jesus because he didn't bother to provide any reasonable evidence of his own existense. All we have is a single book full of contradictions, mistakes and irrelevant stuff.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[bjjman 0]

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Have you studied much science? It is amazing. Did you know that if I drove toward you at 150 mi/s and you drove toward me at 75 mi/s we would not be approaching each other at 225 mi/s? We'd actually be coming toward each other at only 170 mi/s!

(Anybody that knows the equation, feel free to check my math.)

Actually, you'd have to be going MUCH faster before any relativistic effects kick in that would be noticeable without some instrumentation. The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second, so your basic assumption is off by several orders of magnitude.

Whoops! I left off the "k." I meant to use 225k mi/s, etc.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[nerdgirl 0]

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Don't turn this into a geek fest. You're intelligent enough to know what I was implying.

I don't know what you were implying. One might say that my psychic powers aren’t working this week. Hence the question. Given the unclear use of the term:

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“A theory is just that. I believe more evidence needs to be presented.”

and the frequent confusion of the vernacular implication with the technical meaning, it was a legitimate request for clarification.

Of course, you don't have to answer anything; re-directing comments at me is vaguely curious, however, and off-topic.


I wasn’t aware there was any prohibition against such on Speakers Corner, if we want to have a geek … ahem, [ #800080]nerd[/#800080 ] fest, let's talk about pre-biotic synthesis of RNA, like this versus the biotic origin of RNA from earlier TNA or GNA debate. Or for a fabulous nerd fest – let’s look at the intersection of organic synthesis and photocatalysis and early Earth geochemistry of reducing atmosphere. For the more (astro)physics inclined, there’s the search for amino acids in the interstellar medium, of which the component molecules have already found.

Now that’s a just a sliver of a geek … [ #800080]nerd[/#800080 ] fest.
As opposed to asking for clarification on the ambiguous usage of a word with *very* different meanings.
VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[woodpecker 0]

So, when the Greeks thought the gods threw down thunderbolts . . . they did . . . until Ben Franklin came around and pushed them out of existence?

Anyway, we're not saying it DIDN'T have a cause, just that we don't yet understand it.

My guess is that there are plenty of things you, personally, don't understand how they happen. That doesn't mean that "god" makes them happen. It just means YOU don't understand it.

[Tink1717 2]

It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of an objective summation of the available evidence. Belief has nothing to do with it.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[nerdgirl 0]

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See, this is what I dont understand. Dont you think its a little interesting that we posess the ability to progress without having evidence of something? Not only that, that it really isnt that unreasonable to do so?

Yes, I agree that it’s fascinating that humans “posess the ability to progress [or regress] without having evidence of something” or anything … and that it’s not unusual. And it's an interesting, im-ever-ho, phenomena to think about and to debate.

Humans figured out how to create agricultural hybrids and domesticate animals without understanding genetics.

Humans devised schemes for making steel, soap, and beer without understand metallurgy or chemistry.

Benjamin Franklin was accused of usurping the will of God because he placed one of his inventions -- lightening rods -- on church steeples substantially decreased the 'supernatural' effects of lightening during sermons. He made progress without understanding electromagnetism theory.

A lot of skydivers use altimeters w/out understanding the underlying physical principles that make an altimeter work.

While fitting the criterion you indicated, I’m not sure how those connect to presence or absence of a supernatural deity one way or another? Some don’t need a mysterious explanation. Or maybe I just don't understand your point.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[maadmax 0]

[Cough splutter bullshit]
..that may be the crutch you use for yourself, which is fine,
but don't profess that your way is the ONLY way.
That's just ignorant***

What have you found that gives your life direction and meaning, allowing you to perfect the good things and minimize the bad?


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