Do atheists/agnostics believe in.....

[maadmax 0]

Of course it does, because you choose to interpret ANYTHING that happens as evidence of God.

Good things happen - God loves us.
Bad things happen - God acts in mysterious ways***

If you actually understood what you were condemning there might be a possibility of a reasonable discussion. As it is, I haven't heard one comment from the atheistic corner that indicates any of you have the slightest clue what Christianity is about. If you could understand and admit to your failures, you would see that the healing message of Jesus has a lot to offer.

For example:

Good things happen - God loves us
Bad things happen - God loves us

"For we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His Purpose."


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[georgerussia 0]

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God has always reached out to man.

So why anyone ever needed Jesus to "show the path", if your God has always reached out them? Why did you need the missionaries, and the crusades? Why are you so insistent on spreading the word about your Jesus if it's completely useless since the God already reached all of us out?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Many of these truths require belief, but that doesnt make them fictional.

Anything which _requires_ belief as a prerequisite to work has a good chance to be fictional.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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As it is, I haven't heard one comment from the atheistic corner that indicates any of you have the slightest clue what Christianity is about.

Same as Christians - you could ask "what _true_ Christianity is about" a Catholic, a protestant, a Jehova Witness, an Eastern Orthodox, and you will not get the same answers. Which means that in the best case only one of them is right, and the rest are wrong. It's also possible that all of them are wrong.

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For example:
Good things happen - God loves us
Bad things happen - God loves us

But since everything could basically fit into either "good things" or "bad things", we'll get:

Gay sex - God loves us
Abortion - God loves us
Whatever else - God loves us

Right?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[maadmax 0]

Same as Christians - you could ask "what _true_ Christianity is about" a Catholic, a protestant, a Jehova Witness, an Eastern Orthodox, and you will not get the same answers. Which means that in the best case only one of them is right, and the rest are wrong. It's also possible that all of them are wrong.

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A few procedural differences is not a big deal. It is inevitable when people get involved and try to improve on Gods plan through religion. Jesus is still The Truth, The Way, and The Life, He still is the way of salvation.

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For example:
Good things happen - God loves us
Bad things happen - God loves us

But since everything could basically fit into either "good things" or "bad things", we'll get:

Gay sex - God loves us
Abortion - God loves us
Whatever else - God loves us

You are starting to get it , maybe. "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that who so ever believed in Him should not perish but will have eternal life." Jesus died for our sins so we might have a relationship with God.

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Right?***
Right!

[Squeak 17]

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Jesus died for our sins so we might have a relationship with God.
***
Right!

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine
meltin' in a pot of thieves
wild card up my sleeve
thick heart of stone
my sins my own
they belong to me, me

people say "beware!"
but I don't care
the words are just
rules and regulations to me, me

I-I walk in a room, you know I look so proud
I'm movin' in this here atmosphere, well, anything's allowed
and I go to this here party and I just get bored
until I look out the window, see a sweet young thing
humpin' on the parking meter, leanin' on the parking meter
oh, she looks so good, oh, she looks so fine
and I got this crazy feeling and then I'm gonna ah-ah make her mine
ooh I'll put my spell on her

here she comes
walkin' down the street
here she comes
comin' through my door
here she comes
crawlin' up my stair
here she comes
waltzin' through the hall
in a pretty red dress
and oh, she looks so good, oh, she looks so fine
and I got this crazy feeling that I'm gonna ah-ah make her mine

and then I hear this knockin' on my door
hear this knockin' on my door
and I look up into the big tower clock
and say, "oh my God here's midnight!"
and my baby is walkin' through the door
leanin' on my couch she whispers to me and I take the big plunge
and oh, she was so good and oh, she was so fine
and I'm gonna tell the world that I just ah-ah made her mine

and I said darling, tell me your name, she told me her name
she whispered to me, she told me her name
and her name is, and her name is, and her name is, and her name is G-L-O-R-I-A
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria

I was at the stadium
There were twenty thousand girls called their names out to me
Marie and Ruth but to tell you the truth
I didn't hear them I didn't see
I let my eyes rise to the big tower clock
and I heard those bells chimin' in my heart
going ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong.
ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong
counting the time, then you came to my room
and you whispered to me and we took the big plunge
and oh. you were so good, oh, you were so fine
and I gotta tell the world that I make her mine make her mine
make her mine make her mine make her mine make her mine

G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria

and the tower bells chime, "ding dong" they chime
they're singing, "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine."

Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A,
Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A, G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria .

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[zoobrothertom 5]

Here's another one to ponder ...

What happens when you cross an insomniac with an agnostic who has dyslexia?

You get a person who sits up all night wondering if there really is a Dog.

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I'm back in the USA!!

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Back to the OP, Big bang / creationism.
If given the choice between the two, I'd definitely go for the big bang.

Between what two?

I only put in one theory. What was the other one?

I am a Christian, and I believe in the Big Bang Theory, and Evolution etc. I think the Big Bang and also Evolution are the best cohesive theories to describe the development of the universe and life.

The problem is this: The measurable parts of the universe are Matter Energy Space and Time. Each one cannot exist without the other. What then was the cause of the Big Bang Event? And how could there be a physical cause if time itself did not exist "before" the Big Bang?

How could there be a cause unless it was something that exists INDEPENDENTLY of Matter Energy Space and Time?

How would an atheist answer that question? Or would the atheist just make a leap of faith and just say "Well, it happened JUST BECAUSE!" (in other words, "It doesn't have to make any sense to me, but that's just how it is and THAT'S THAT!")

Speed Racer
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[jcd11235 0]

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The problem is this: The measurable parts of the universe are Matter Energy Space and Time. Each one cannot exist without the other. What then was the cause of the Big Bang Event? And how could there be a physical cause if time itself did not exist "before" the Big Bang?

How could there be a cause unless it was something that exists INDEPENDENTLY of Matter Energy Space and Time?

Try researching big bounce theories. There is a much higher probability that such a theory is accurate than some supernatural creator.

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How would an atheist answer that question? Or would the atheist just make a leap of faith and just say "Well, it happened JUST BECAUSE!" (in other words, "It doesn't have to make any sense to me, but that's just how it is and THAT'S THAT!")

What created the alleged creator? Did it exist "JUST BECAUSE! (in other words, 'It doesn't have to make any sense to me, but that's just how it is and THAT'S THAT!')"? How would that be more plausible than the universe existing "JUST BECAUSE!"?

Unlike theological explanations, scientific hypotheses are based upon observations and mathematical logic.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Shotgun 1]

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The problem is this: The measurable parts of the universe are Matter Energy Space and Time. Each one cannot exist without the other. What then was the cause of the Big Bang Event? And how could there be a physical cause if time itself did not exist "before" the Big Bang?

How could there be a cause unless it was something that exists INDEPENDENTLY of Matter Energy Space and Time?

How would an atheist answer that question?

My answer would be "I don't know."

Why would you expect an atheist to know everything about how the universe came into existence? And then why do you not expect Christians to know how their god came into existence?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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What created the alleged creator? Did it exist "JUST BECAUSE! (in other words, 'It doesn't have to make any sense to me, but that's just how it is and THAT'S THAT!')"? How would that be more plausible than the universe existing "JUST BECAUSE!"?

No one created the Creator. The point is that there is a logic behind the belief in something that exists outside the 4 physical parts of the universe (Matter Energy Space and Time) and is therefore not subject to the physical rules.

Otherwise how would the physical parts of the universe come into existence in the first place?


edited to add: The Big Bounce theory only postpones the problem of Existence, it doesn't solve it. Secondly, it appears that the furthest stars are actually ACCELLERATING away from each other: in other words, they have achieved escape velocity from one anothers' gravitational pull. It seems unlikely that the universe will contract in the future.

Speed Racer
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[maadmax 0]

--Try researching big bounce theories. There is a much higher probability that such a theory is accurate than some supernatural creator.

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Did you know that the Big Bounce Theory is Biblical?
"...the heavens will be destroyed by burning and the elements will melt with intense heat. But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth..." I Pete 3:12 &13

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--What created the alleged creator? Did it exist "JUST BECAUSE! (in other words, 'It doesn't have to make any sense to me, but that's just how it is and THAT'S THAT!')"? How would that be more plausible than the universe existing "JUST BECAUSE!"

You are right, it wouldn't make more sense. The two possibilities make the same amount of sense. Therefore the theories are not mutually exclusive.

[maadmax 0]

--Why would you expect an atheist to know everything about how the universe came into existence?

To be so bold as to say God does not exist, I would think that you would have some pretty solid answers about the origins of the universe.

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-- And then why do you not expect Christians to know how their god came into existence***

God did not have a beginning. " He is the same yesterday, today and forever"


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[Shotgun 1]

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To be so bold as to say God does not exist, I would think that you would have some pretty solid answers about the origins of the universe.

There are a lot of things that I don't know or understand, but I don't see that lack of knowledge/understanding as an indication that some sort of god exists. Especially since I have seen no evidence of the existence of a god.

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God did not have a beginning. " He is the same yesterday, today and forever"

Typical BS answer. To be so bold to say that your god exists, I would think that you would have some pretty solid answers about the origins of your god. (And that is definitely not a solid answer.)

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Typical BS answer. To be so bold to say that your god exists, I would think that you would have some pretty solid answers about the origins of your god. (And that is definitely not a solid answer.)

God is spirit. God is love. Love destroys and empowers and has many incredibly amazing invisible unobservable qualties. To say that God doesnt exist is to say that love doesnt exist. A humans deepest need is not only his search, but fulfillment of Love. Life is the greatest gift we can give and that is the greatest expression of Love. We get closer to a fulness in love through a heart that is pure and wholesome. This has nothing to do with the origin of the universe, but is just as true regardless of the origin of the universe. What this shows is that Life is not only capable of giving life as in the physical, but also has invisible qualities that if found and fulfilled will enable us to experience Life in incredibly increasing measures within the physical but not because of the physical. So, what are these qualities and how do we recieve them? Do they exist?

If Jesus had not revealed these things, I would probably doubt Gods existance as well. But what he gives is Love to the greatest power I have known and what he reveais in that love is Life, which is what he says he is. God is not some white bearded man on a throne. The only description of God that is given in the bible is Invisible, He is spirit, he is life, and he is love. How does the origin of the universe explain the invisible qualities of life? That is, when a man is dead in the physical, it is because his life has gone. It doest intrigue you at all to wonder where it goes? In that wonder lies another beautiful invisible quality of Life, one that is accesible to anyone and just as empowering...Hope.

Very few things I have recieved on these forums have intrigued me anywhere close to the revelations of a spiritual mind and its realistic applications to this life. And are just scratching the surface.

"We didn't start the fire"

[billvon 2,990]

>To be so bold as to say God does not exist, I would think that you
>would have some pretty solid answers about the origins of the universe.

That sounds like a "God does all the stuff I don't understand."

That's sort of limiting, though. I assume you do not understand the details of how vector AC motor drives work. Does that mean that you think God makes the elevator go between floors? Or do you assume that it's an electric motor that pulls on a cable, and you just don't understand all the details?

[jcd11235 0]

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No one created the Creator. The point is that there is a logic behind the belief in something that exists outside the 4 physical parts of the universe (Matter Energy Space and Time) and is therefore not subject to the physical rules.

Faulty logic. Not fully understanding how the universe came to be is not evidence of a supernatural creator.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Did you know that the Big Bounce Theory is Biblical?

Really? Please, tell me, what chapter and verse contains the equations that describe the quantum theory underlying the big bounce?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[crozby 0]

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To say that God doesnt exist is to say that love doesn't exist.

I've stared at this statement for ages and it just doesn't make any sense to me. Please would you explain it to me.

Also, I'm curious. You talk about Jesus a lot and it made me wonder if you chose Christianity because God spoke to you or something, or if you fell into Christianity like most of us do because your parents were Christians.

And if Christianity did just happen to be your family tree's default religion then have you ever wondered if you'd been born to Muslims if you'd be talking a lot about Mohammed. What if your parents were Budhists - what would you believe now?

Would you have converted to Christianity? Would you have adopted Buddah with the same enthusiasm that you show for Jesus?

I wonder if maybe you have the kind of personality that needs to strongly believe in something, and fulfilling that desire is how Christianity makes your life feel so meaningful.

[maadmax 0]

That sounds like a "God does all the stuff I don't understand."

That's sort of limiting, though. I assume you do not understand the details of how vector AC motor drives work. Does that mean that you think God makes the elevator go between floors? Or do you assume that it's an electric motor that pulls on a cable, and you just don't understand all the details***

Not at all. When I see the electromagnetic footprint captured by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe 380,000 million years after the big bang, my assumption is the same as when I see any foot print. Obviously it was left there by something.

Had you asked me about how a vectored AC motor drives work 400 years ago, I would of said that it didn't and that alternating current was just a myth because there was no evidence for it.

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[maadmax 0]

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Did you know that the Big Bounce Theory is Biblical

Really? Please, tell me, what chapter and verse contains the equations that describe the quantum theory underlying the big bounce***

Sorry I wish I could answer that, but other than the link I gave you the rest is classified
on a need to know basis only.

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[jcd11235 0]

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Sorry I wish I could answer that, but other than the link I gave you the rest is classified on a need to know basis only.

In other words, big bounce theory doesn't appear in the Bible at all.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[maadmax 0]

I wonder if maybe you have the kind of personality that needs to strongly believe in something, and fulfilling that desire is how Christianity makes your life feel so meaningful.***

Can't speak for Ryan, but for me it was an almost irresistible pull, as if God was drawing me to
Himself. He just had to turn up the heat a bit before I would listen. Fulfilling is putting it mildly. Refreshing, renewing, empowering, defining, completing is more like it.

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[Shotgun 1]

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To say that God doesnt exist is to say that love doesnt exist.

No, it's not. I have plenty of love in my life without believing that a god exists.

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That is, when a man is dead in the physical, it is because his life has gone. It doest intrigue you at all to wonder where it goes?

Of course it intrigues me. But as far as I know, no one (including any of the religions) really knows what happens after death. I think that probably nothing happens (other than physical decay), because we're just physical beings, but I really don't know.

[jcd11235 0]

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To say that God doesnt exist is to say that love doesnt exist.

[/logic][/reason]To say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist is to say that hunger doesn't exist. Surely you've been hungry before, right? Therefore the FSM must be real.[reason][logic]

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!