Do atheists/agnostics believe in.....

[Lindsey 0]

I think I'm gonna stop believing in evolution after watching this thread drone on and on for pages and months, the same ol' stuff said over and over in different words.

Maybe I'm just impatient, though, and evolution takes longer...like people will have to die and reproduce and stuff...lol.

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Shotgun 1]

But if we all say the same stuff over and over and over again, in as many different threads as possible, someone SOMEONE will eventually change his/her opinion on the subject.

Or maybe not.

[kallend 2,027]

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But if we all say the same stuff over and over and over again, in as many different threads as possible, someone SOMEONE will eventually change his/her opinion on the subject.

Or maybe not.

"What I say three times is true" - Bellman in "Hunting of the Snark, as well as the Bush administration.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[maadmax 0]

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I think I'm gonna stop believing in evolution after watching this thread drone on and on for pages and months, the same ol' stuff said over and over in different words.

Peace~
linz

Your are right, it does get a bit tedious. Please change the tone. Lets talk about spiritual/psychological issues you find important, that help you make sense of the chaos and live a rich fulfilling life.

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[georgerussia 0]

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Asking me what God is, is just like asking me what love is.

This is a lame attempt. I did not ask you what god is, since it's now obvious to anyone you don't know that. I am asking you questions about your beliefs, and I'll repeat them:

- Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do?
- Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)?

See? Those are very simple questions, which could be answered as "yes", "know" or "I don't know". I'm not asking you WHAT God is. You could believe it's love, it's red or it's a dick, I don't care. Just tell me whether you agree that your God or love or red or dick you believe in is omnipotent and /or omniscient as described, or you do not agree.

I'll probably make it clear that the following things are completely irrelevant to the question I asked:
- What couples in love think;
- What problems artits who create music have;
- Whether you Holy Spirit is sacred;
- Whether I lie and admit it or not;

and other stuff completely irrelevant to the questions asked.

This is the most important question, and if you can't answer even it, then all your beliefs are groundless even for you, and everything else doesn't make any sense at all.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[maadmax 0]

- Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do?

Yes, and who knows if He can create a rock He cannot lift, maybe in some quantum or relative way that is possible .


- Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)?

Yes, but foreknowledge does not exclude free will.
So far general relativity does not restrict the time arrow to just one direction, theoretically.


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[jcd11235 0]

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So far general relativity does not restrict the time arrow to just one direction, theoretically.

Nor does chemistry explain gravity.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Shotgun 1]

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Your are right, it does get a bit tedious. Please change the tone. Lets talk about spiritual/psychological issues you find important, that help you make sense of the chaos and live a rich fulfilling life.

Well, that's a good topic, though not likely to go very far in SC. And it's not what the point of this thread was. It seems that the point of this thread was to say that if we don't know what caused the Big Bang then there must be a creator/god.

And even if that proved that there was a creator/god (which it doesn't), it still wouldn't have anything to do with living a fulfilling life or making sense out of the chaos. If there was a way to prove the existence of a creator, it would still leave the question of whether that creator loved us or hated us, or cared nothing for us at all. (Yes, I know that some of you believe you have the answer to that, so there is no need to repeat it.)

So basically, this thread was started by a Christian, not to talk about how to make one's life better, but as an illogical attempt to prove atheists/agnostics wrong. (But at least it wasn't as atagonistic as the thread that was started to make fun of Christianity.)

Anyhow, I think I'll now go find something more peaceful to do than posting on SC. Have a good day.

[georgerussia 0]

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Yes, and who knows if He can create a rock He cannot lift, maybe in some quantum or relative way that is possible.

Thank you for the straight answer. So if the God can do anything, he should be able to:
- Create perfect humans;
- Pardon the humanity for anything without going through Jesus thing (in fact, the whole Jesus death story does not make any sense at all then).

Correct?

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Yes, but foreknowledge does not exclude free will.

It doesn't, but the God already knows what decision this "free will" will make, and this is part of being omniscient.
For example, if I'm in the room with two doors, do you believe that the omniscient God knows which door and when I open, excercising my free will?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[billvon 2,991]

>Yes, but foreknowledge does not exclude free will.

Quite literally it does. If some entity has a certain knowledge of what you will do, either you have no choice in the matter or his knowledge is faulty.

[georgerussia 0]

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The reason is obvious - there is no more evidence in support the judeo-christian god than there is for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

You're saying that because you didn't open your heart, and accepted Flying Spaghetti Monster as your saviour. Otherwise you'd have no problem seeing a lot of evidence that Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, and worshipping it feels even better than sex.

Probably that's because your soul is deceived by Crawling Spaghetti Monster. Beware! He'll force you to eat Big Macs after you die!

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Quite literally it does. If some entity has a certain knowledge of what you will do, either you have no choice in the matter or his knowledge is faulty.

It depends on what he meant by "does not exclude free will".
Obviously it doesn't take it away from you - i.e. you still have (or think you have) a free will. But the omniscient being should know what you do no matter how exactly you exercise your free will.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[billvon 2,991]

>you still have (or think you have) a free will.

Ah, that's the key! If you define 'free will' as being able to alter your future, then you do not have it. If you define 'free will' as the _illusion_ of being able to alter your future, then yes - you still have free will.

[Lindsey 0]

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>you still have (or think you have) a free will.

Ah, that's the key! If you define 'free will' as being able to alter your future, then you do not have it. If you define 'free will' as the _illusion_ of being able to alter your future, then yes - you still have free will.

Dad gum. Makes me wonder if I'm just fucked no matter what...lol. I think I'll hang onto that illusion of having a choice in the matter. Isn't ignorance bliss???? Or something?

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[maadmax 0]

Thank you for the straight answer. So if the God can do anything, he should be able to:

- Create perfect humans;

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Yes. Which is what He did. He also created us with a free will.



- Pardon the humanity for anything without going through Jesus thing

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Good question. Honestly, I don't know the answer. But it seems to me from my study of physics that He likes everything to balance out. The consequences of evil acts must be neutralized.


- the God already knows what decision this "free will" will make, and this is part of being omniscient.For example, if I'm in the room with two doors, do you believe that the omniscient God knows which door and when I open, exercising my free will?

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I would think His knowing your choice before you made it would not be outside His abilities. What point are you trying to make?

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[maadmax 0]

Yes, but foreknowledge does not exclude free will.

Quite literally it does. If some entity has a certain knowledge of what you will do, either you have no choice in the matter or his knowledge is faulty.

[maadmax 0]

Nor does chemistry explain gravity.

[Lindsey 0]

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Nor does chemistry explain gravity.

My money is on the Higgs boson. It will de-mystify gravity. Along with the aid of atomic interferometry we will get it nailed down.

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[billvon 2,991]

>Then seeing the choice made by an individual from our future does
>not negate their free will in making that choice.

Actually, it does. You will no more be able to change what you do a year from now than you can change what you did a year ago. You may well _think_ you have free will. But if your future is as unalterable as your past, it is an illusion.

[Lindsey 0]

But in "Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah," Donald says that you are always free to change your future OR your past. That way of thinking is just so much freer.

:)
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[georgerussia 0]

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Yes. Which is what He did. He also created us with a free will.

Here's where the trouble started. The only difference between perfect and not-so-perfect human would be the way they execute their free will. So how could you explain why perfect human Eva executed her free will in a very wrong way which is basically 100% incompatible with perfection?

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Good question. Honestly, I don't know the answer. But it seems to me from my study of physics that He likes everything to balance out. The consequences of evil acts must be neutralized.

Your God actually created this consequence of evil act. To neutralize it he just needed to forgive Eva, that's it. But what was done looked more like my kid was told not to eat candy, but ate it. Then to forgive him we would "create" another kid, and let him die in a horrible death. Sounds stupid? It is.

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I would think His knowing your choice before you made it would not be outside His abilities. What point are you trying to make?

My point is that the moment God created Eva he knew EXACTLY what she will do, and he knew exactly that she will use her free will to eat this apple. And he did nothing to correct problems with his creation, even though it would be very easy. He did nothing.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[jcd11235 0]

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He also created us with a free will.
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I would think His knowing your choice before you made it would not be outside His abilities. What point are you trying to make?

It can't be both ways.

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But it seems to me from my study of physics that He likes everything to balance out. The consequences of evil acts must be neutralized.

Why would a perfect supreme being create "perfect humans" that perform "evil acts"? Why would such a supreme being even create evil, unless evil was perfect.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Nor does chemistry explain gravity.

My money is on the Higgs boson. It will de-mystify gravity. Along with the aid of atomic interferometry we will get it nailed down.

You missed my point. Chemistry is the wrong place to look if one wants to understand gravity. Likewise, if you want to understand why time doesn't go backwards, you should look at Thermodynamics, not General Relativity. "Entropy must increase and not dissipate"

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 2,027]

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Thank you for the straight answer. So if the God can do anything, he should be able to:

- Create perfect humans;

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Yes. Which is what He did. He also created us with a free will.

Humans are far from perfect. We have skeletons ill suited to walking upright, joints that wear out and don't regenerate, eye lenses that harden and cease to focus, blood vessels in the heart that are prone to blockage, an appendix with no useful function that is prone to life threatening infections that is just a carryover from other creatures. Pretty poor job for an omniscient omnipotent creator.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[labrys 0]

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My money is on the Higgs boson. It will de-mystify gravity.

My money is on J.P. Furnari

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