jcd11235 0 #326 July 9, 2008 Quoteif love takes courage and courage takes fear Why would either of those be true?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #327 July 9, 2008 QuoteQuote....there is love in fear...and you may or may not admit, that many fear love...but fearing love and finding love in fear still means that love takes fear. Well, that settles it then. Nobody can argue with that. Really. I think he does it with this. Factor 6 maybe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #328 July 9, 2008 QuoteBut, if love takes courage and courage takes fear, is there any other way to see it? And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Why does love take courage?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #329 July 9, 2008 Quote Quote (where did you get that idea from anyway?) from one of the atheists in Speakers Corner. not you, I guess. Heh, So 'Hardcore atheists have trouble with this concept' becomes 'One hardcore atheist has trouble with this concept'. Looks like christians can't help but generaliseDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #330 July 9, 2008 Wow... I asked it for a level 4 on Pooh and got Pooh likes honey? Buzzing. You does? One day, Winnie-the sang time, about was out large over little of all got of is making so as a bee." Then he walking a buzz! Buzzing. You does he meaning a because likes 'under Robin. "It was a little only reason forest a last Friday, Winnie-the-Pooh said I.) One does 'under why honey is how I withought all got up, and that I am," said I.) Once walking. You down at I came' means head buzz! I wonder the to his because likes he sure," sat is bear like think. First! Which sounds like either some of the best conversations I ever overheard at a party or someone's religious argument. Cool factor: 8.2 -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #331 July 9, 2008 More... I know of the middle of the only reason forest all he climbed and he had the door in the only reason forest all he climbed he tree. He climbed, and said to an open place was out it." So he had the only reason forest, and said: "And the name to thing. If the top of think. First of the name of the top of this: Isn't is funny how a bear like thought another long time ago now, about it." So he got up, and between he had the middle of all by himself: "Then he wasn't is because you're a large oak-tree. Absolute genius! You could win arguments with this thing! -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #332 July 9, 2008 >Hardcore Atheists (those who don't believe spirituality exists in any >way shape or form) have trouble with this concept, because they believe >that human beings REALLY ARE just soulless, organic automatons, and >that free will is just an illusion. I have never met an atheist who thinks like that, actually. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #333 July 9, 2008 Bill, You don't is because you're a loud buzzing, without last Friday, Winnie-the-Pooh sat does? Once upon a forest, and buzzing-noise like thout its means head began to himself under why he was out last Friday, Winnie-the-Pooh sat down at the only reason for making, he was out walking, he had the only reason for making a buzzing-noise that, just buzzing a buzzing-noise, and buzzing honey." Is anyone else laughing as hard as I am or is it just me? This thing's ability to generate sentences that almost but don't quite make any sense is almost creepy. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #334 July 9, 2008 QuoteQuoteif love takes courage and courage takes fear Why would either of those be true? They seem to be true at least to me. I have found in my life that opening up to love someone who either does or doesnt love you takes courage, quite a bit actually. And, how is courage possible without fear? People think that a courageous man, a hero, is just as fearless as can be, I disagree. I think a hero, or courageous man feels fear very much and faces that fear with courage of the heart. Youve, read the Gospel. Jesus faced his destiny with courage so that others might have the love God has for him. To me, that sounds just like something the love of God would do if it were ever to appear here in this world to teach us how to love, and to save us from a life that is found wanting at the heart level."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #335 July 9, 2008 >>>>I sense sincerity in you, but for some reason a little bitterness in regards to what people believe about Jesus. Im sorry for that. Also, I dont think it is entirely fair to highlight just one side of my posts to "prove" your point. My desire is to become like the righteousness of God, but I am far far from it. However, everything that you quoted me on I believe is the truth. It is the line between a believer and an non-believer in Jesus, so depending on what side of the line your on, that is the perspective from which you see. While you think it is absolute nonsense, it may fit right in with someone elses beliefs, not just my own. So, you dont only think what I have said is nonsense, but everyone who believes the way I do as well.Quote Personally, I believe that Jesus was a cool man that had it going on. Just as I believe that the Dalai Lama is a cool man, do I believe he was reincarnated? No. But I will choose to listen to his teachings of compassion and forgiveness before I would ever listen to a preacher. >>>>Well, what makes you think I am a preacher? And, what makes you think I found my spirituality from a preacher? Could it be that the Christianity you have been witness to is not the one I follow? I believe it could, and probably is. I have stayed away from the church for a very long time, and I still do for the most part. I dont want to bad mouth it because many people get spiritually fed in there and lives are changed for the better, but for me, I find more enjoyment and spiritual connection with God than with the church. I do get to find genuine Christians every now and then, but their not all over the place believe me. While I may be the one who is considered false, I still find great comfort in likeminded believers who know, understand, and follow Jesus with all thier heart. Jesus gives us forgiveness for the things we are guilty for, and I am guilty for alot. Why would I turn down this forgiveness? If you can find me holier than thou, then you have done a good job locating the grace in me, but truth is something you havent seen. You havent heard my confessions, my guilt, my shame. I have said it many times, but you still have not heard it, and for that again, all I can say is I am very sorry. I am trying. >>>>Nevertheless, the dali lama did not die for my sins, and Jesus, while I also know he was a cool man, was also crucified, buried, ressurected, and is fully alive today, testifying to the spirit of grace and finishing the work of the word of God through the testimony of those who believe on him. Of course I know you dont believe this, but I do, with all my heart.Quote I prefer to fear what is real (in my reality). >>>>It seems you may believe that we find spirituality outside of reality, I can assure you, it is quite the opposite. But again, we just believe differently. Quote A serious question, do you think he listens to us pray, and honestly what do you pray for? Have you ever prayed for a better job, or to not run out of gas when you are on empty, or world peace? (this is a serious question) >>>>Yes. I have and still do pray for "stupid little things" but, we actually do grow in our understanding spiritually, that is even our prayers mature and we learn more and more what to pray for. Jesus, was always asking people what they truly wanted, sometimes its finding what we truly want that can be the most evasive in our search. I am much more humble in my prayers now, and mostly spend them praying for others. I feel what I pray for is really sort of personal, between me and Jesus. Literally, I will ask him for my own time, just him and I, and there is much truth in those prayers. Jesus knows me more than I know myself, so I try hard not to hide my shortcomings and failures. But I hope me not going into details for you doesnt make you think I am dodging your question (that I feel is sincere), but its like sharing your deepest heart with someone and in my case, that heart is just for Jesus...he gets it all. I guess im a bit selfish in that regard. Do I think he listens? Absolutely. And sometimes, you can even hear him listening."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #336 July 9, 2008 And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Quote Goodness sakes Jakee! "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #337 July 9, 2008 QuoteThey seem to be true at least to me. I think that about sums up everything you have to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjjman 0 #338 July 10, 2008 LMFAO! "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #339 July 10, 2008 Please elaborate. How does general relativity allow observations into the future.Quote We can't of course , because as you pointed out, we are restrained by entropy. From my understanding of general relativity, time travel into the future is a provable reality(time dilation). Theoretically speaking there is no prohibition in general relativity for the time arrow being reversed. Since God claims to know the future , I believe it. Therefore He must not be restrained by entropy like we are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #340 July 10, 2008 Quote>>>>I sense sincerity in you, but for some reason a little bitterness in regards to what people believe about Jesus. Im sorry for that. Also, I dont think it is entirely fair to highlight just one side of my posts to "prove" your point. My desire is to become like the righteousness of God, but I am far far from it. However, everything that you quoted me on I believe is the truth. It is the line between a believer and an non-believer in Jesus, so depending on what side of the line your on, that is the perspective from which you see. While you think it is absolute nonsense, it may fit right in with someone elses beliefs, not just my own. So, you dont only think what I have said is nonsense, but everyone who believes the way I do as well.Quote Personally, I believe that Jesus was a cool man that had it going on. Just as I believe that the Dalai Lama is a cool man, do I believe he was reincarnated? No. But I will choose to listen to his teachings of compassion and forgiveness before I would ever listen to a preacher. >>>>Well, what makes you think I am a preacher? And, what makes you think I found my spirituality from a preacher? Could it be that the Christianity you have been witness to is not the one I follow? I believe it could, and probably is. I have stayed away from the church for a very long time, and I still do for the most part. I dont want to bad mouth it because many people get spiritually fed in there and lives are changed for the better, but for me, I find more enjoyment and spiritual connection with God than with the church. I do get to find genuine Christians every now and then, but their not all over the place believe me. While I may be the one who is considered false, I still find great comfort in likeminded believers who know, understand, and follow Jesus with all thier heart. Jesus gives us forgiveness for the things we are guilty for, and I am guilty for alot. Why would I turn down this forgiveness? If you can find me holier than thou, then you have done a good job locating the grace in me, but truth is something you havent seen. You havent heard my confessions, my guilt, my shame. I have said it many times, but you still have not heard it, and for that again, all I can say is I am very sorry. I am trying. >>>>Nevertheless, the dali lama did not die for my sins, and Jesus, while I also know he was a cool man, was also crucified, buried, ressurected, and is fully alive today, testifying to the spirit of grace and finishing the work of the word of God through the testimony of those who believe on him. Of course I know you dont believe this, but I do, with all my heart.Quote I prefer to fear what is real (in my reality). >>>>It seems you may believe that we find spirituality outside of reality, I can assure you, it is quite the opposite. But again, we just believe differently. Quote A serious question, do you think he listens to us pray, and honestly what do you pray for? Have you ever prayed for a better job, or to not run out of gas when you are on empty, or world peace? (this is a serious question) >>>>Yes. I have and still do pray for "stupid little things" but, we actually do grow in our understanding spiritually, that is even our prayers mature and we learn more and more what to pray for. Jesus, was always asking people what they truly wanted, sometimes its finding what we truly want that can be the most evasive in our search. I am much more humble in my prayers now, and mostly spend them praying for others. I feel what I pray for is really sort of personal, between me and Jesus. Literally, I will ask him for my own time, just him and I, and there is much truth in those prayers. Jesus knows me more than I know myself, so I try hard not to hide my shortcomings and failures. But I hope me not going into details for you doesnt make you think I am dodging your question (that I feel is sincere), but its like sharing your deepest heart with someone and in my case, that heart is just for Jesus...he gets it all. I guess im a bit selfish in that regard. Do I think he listens? Absolutely. And sometimes, you can even hear him listening. You know, if you ever stop focusing on the metaphor of Christ, and start focusing on his message, I think you'll find that you could learn a lot from Jeanie^2.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #341 July 10, 2008 QuoteFrom my understanding of general relativity, time travel into the future is a provable reality(time dilation). You have a poor understanding of time dilation. Relativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Time is fundamentally related to velocity. That doesn't mean we can travel into the future any faster or slower than anyone else can, though it may seem like it to outside observers. As far as traveling backward in time, t·(a - b·i) is not the same as -c·t.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bjjman 0 #342 July 10, 2008 QuoteRelativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Actually it does, at least if you measure that present by the world around you. I could theoretically go 30 years into the future where my daughter would be older than me and my fiance about ready for her AARP subscription. I certainly would consider myself to have escaped "my present.""Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #343 July 10, 2008 You have a poor understanding of time dilation. Relativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Time is fundamentally related to velocity. That doesn't mean we can travel into the future any faster or slower than anyone else can, though it may seem like it to outside observers.QuoteTime travel as you say is related to velocity as well as strong gravitational fields such as an event horizon. My mistake may have been assuming you would know what I was talking about with out elaborating. An observer can theoretically go from one frame of reference to another frame of reference with speed or gravity being varied causing the passage of time to be different. If the speed was close to "c" or the gravity approached that of the escape velocity of light, then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. As far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. God says He can do it, therefore I believe He can. My original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Forward time travel has no affect on free will, therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Therefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #344 July 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteRelativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Actually it does, at least if you measure that present by the world around you. I could theoretically go 30 years into the future where my daughter would be older than me and my fiance about ready for her AARP subscription. I certainly would consider myself to have escaped "my present." Nope. Your world path would be different, but your minute would still pass at the same rate. Your day would still have the same number of minutes. Your world path would just contain less time if you travelled, relative to your daughter, at a velocity with a magnitude sufficiently great enough. While your daughter is in the "world around you" (i.e. moves at a very low speed in comparison to the speed of light, relative to you), you and your daughter will experience approximately the same amount of time. Relativity doesn't predict that clacks run faster or slower depending on speed. It predicts the amount of time there is to be measured relative to other frames of reference.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,489 #345 July 10, 2008 QuoteTime travel as you say is related to velocity as well as strong gravitational fields such as an event horizon. My mistake may have been assuming you would know what I was talking about with out elaborating. An observer can theoretically go from one frame of reference to another frame of reference with speed or gravity being varied causing the passage of time to be different. If the speed was close to "c" or the gravity approached that of the escape velocity of light, then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. As far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. God says He can do it, therefore I believe He can. My original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Forward time travel has no affect on free will, therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Therefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Except forward 'time travel' under general relativity is not in any way related to foreknowledge of events. A person that goes into space at a significant fraction of c and comes back to earth 200 years later will still only experience what is happening in the present, it just so happens that the present is now 200 years later. This is not foreknowledge and I don't understand why you are trying to pretend that the two are related. The foreknowledge that is involved with a truly omniscient God is something else entirely and would require that he know the outcome of all things from the beginning to the end of time before he even set the physical constants for the universe. Freewill in that scenario is meaningless.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #346 July 10, 2008 Quote… then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. No, it would still be his present. Just because two people's world path's intersect at two different points and one of them travels extensively at a speed near the speed of light during the interim does not mean he traveled into the future. His world path simply contains less time between the two intersections. QuoteAs far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. It doesn't suggest it's possible, either. Complex numbers and negative numbers are not the same thing, except in cases where a is negative and b is zero (i.e. the complex number is also a member of the set of real numbers less than zero). If someone were somehow able to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light, their gamma would be a complex number, with both a real component and an imaginary component. In relativity, gamma is defined as 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). Most things in relativity can be found by applying gamma in various ways as a coefficient to the traditional Newtonian definitions. The careful reader will notice that gamma is undefined when v=c, and is complex, not negative real, when v>c. QuoteMy original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Not all physical processes are time symmetrical. QuoteForward time travel has no affect on free will … How did you come to this conclusion? Your interpretation of relativity theory allowing for time travel is incorrect. Quote… therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Again, how did you reach this conclusion? QuoteTherefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Since we know your conclusion based on your assumptions to be false, we can conclude that one or both of your assumptions is false, or your logic is invalid.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #347 July 11, 2008 Quote We were originally created with a mind like Gods. Gods reality and that of original humans was the same. Please explain what the word "reality" mean in the quote above. Were humans omnipotent and omniscient? Were they "nowhere and everywhere"? What exactly was lost? Quote After the fall we must now relearn what we have lost. The work of Christ and Truth found in the Bible is our best bet. Well, I could argue about it. First, "we" did not fall. The person who fell was the God direct creation. Even parents feel responsible for what their children do. But your God not only was irresponsible, he actually BLAMED his creations for being created not the way he liked! Quote God could influence our free will decisions, but He has chosen not to. It is not possible. For example, the God had the choice - either create this tree in Edem (as everything was created by God, right?), or do not create it. The choice he made directly affected the "free will". Quote I don't see why foreknowledge is so hard to understand in relation to free will. Because we have a single time scale, and in any single moment you and I will be doing a single thing. For example, I'm thinking whether I should go skydiving on Sat, or should not. Between those two I could only choose one - even though I obviously have free will. But you cannot BOTH go skydiving, and do not go skydiving. Hope this explains why your "free will" is not free, and is absent for anyone with foreknowledge. Quote Knowledge of past events do not influence the free will that made them. No, the knowledge itself doesn't. But the situation is unique: 1. We have an omnipotent and omniscient God who just created a couple of people. Since they didn't grow up with parents, we could safely assume the God put some knowledge in their brains during creation - after all, they didn't learn to communicate (in terms of language and vocabulary) themselves, right? 2. Now you're claiming the God didn't want them to touch this tree. Since the God was the one who created those people, and educated them, he is at least on some level accountable for their actions (even human parents feel accountable for their children behavior). However the God knew she would eat from the tree, and did NOTHING to correct his lack of education in his creature. 3. So now we have the God who created a person, gave it unsatisfactory education, and he knew that in advance. Then, when the person executed her "free will" in the same way utilizing the knowledge the God put in her brain, you're saying the God PUNISHING her for that? And also the rest of us? And this sounds logical for you?!?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #348 July 11, 2008 Quote They seem to be true at least to me. I would suggest that it doesn't make any sense for you to use yourself as example for someone who does not share your beliefs. It will be as useless as showing how Christ improved your life by your own testimony that you recovered from bad flu after praying Christ. If another person does not believe in Christ, your testimony would not make any sense, and if they do, they do not need your testimony. Also it's conclusion - although after spending a couple of days discussing things with a couple of hardcore Christians I understand that at least some of you guys completely lost the ability to tell the difference between facts and conclusions. What could you replyl the person, who points finger to the tree, and says "this is proof that God exist". It's funny though that they do not accept the same tree as proof that aliens are abducting people. Twisted logic, as you see.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bjjman 0 #349 July 13, 2008 Nope yourself. My daughter who is older than me certainly did not have her minutes pass at the same rate as mine, as she experienced 30 years worth of minutes while I experienced a fraction of that. Do I really need to point that out? Think of it as if we had live video of each other as I traveled (ignore the actual practicality and physics of a video feed billvon). As I traveled, I would watch her and she would be "fast forwarding." As she watched me, I would be in "slow-mo.""Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #350 July 13, 2008 You know, if you ever stop focusing on the metaphor of Christ, and start focusing on his message, I think you'll find that you could learn a lot from Jeanie^2. In your mind I guess you would be right."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 14 of 15 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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jcd11235 0 #340 July 10, 2008 Quote>>>>I sense sincerity in you, but for some reason a little bitterness in regards to what people believe about Jesus. Im sorry for that. Also, I dont think it is entirely fair to highlight just one side of my posts to "prove" your point. My desire is to become like the righteousness of God, but I am far far from it. However, everything that you quoted me on I believe is the truth. It is the line between a believer and an non-believer in Jesus, so depending on what side of the line your on, that is the perspective from which you see. While you think it is absolute nonsense, it may fit right in with someone elses beliefs, not just my own. So, you dont only think what I have said is nonsense, but everyone who believes the way I do as well.Quote Personally, I believe that Jesus was a cool man that had it going on. Just as I believe that the Dalai Lama is a cool man, do I believe he was reincarnated? No. But I will choose to listen to his teachings of compassion and forgiveness before I would ever listen to a preacher. >>>>Well, what makes you think I am a preacher? And, what makes you think I found my spirituality from a preacher? Could it be that the Christianity you have been witness to is not the one I follow? I believe it could, and probably is. I have stayed away from the church for a very long time, and I still do for the most part. I dont want to bad mouth it because many people get spiritually fed in there and lives are changed for the better, but for me, I find more enjoyment and spiritual connection with God than with the church. I do get to find genuine Christians every now and then, but their not all over the place believe me. While I may be the one who is considered false, I still find great comfort in likeminded believers who know, understand, and follow Jesus with all thier heart. Jesus gives us forgiveness for the things we are guilty for, and I am guilty for alot. Why would I turn down this forgiveness? If you can find me holier than thou, then you have done a good job locating the grace in me, but truth is something you havent seen. You havent heard my confessions, my guilt, my shame. I have said it many times, but you still have not heard it, and for that again, all I can say is I am very sorry. I am trying. >>>>Nevertheless, the dali lama did not die for my sins, and Jesus, while I also know he was a cool man, was also crucified, buried, ressurected, and is fully alive today, testifying to the spirit of grace and finishing the work of the word of God through the testimony of those who believe on him. Of course I know you dont believe this, but I do, with all my heart.Quote I prefer to fear what is real (in my reality). >>>>It seems you may believe that we find spirituality outside of reality, I can assure you, it is quite the opposite. But again, we just believe differently. Quote A serious question, do you think he listens to us pray, and honestly what do you pray for? Have you ever prayed for a better job, or to not run out of gas when you are on empty, or world peace? (this is a serious question) >>>>Yes. I have and still do pray for "stupid little things" but, we actually do grow in our understanding spiritually, that is even our prayers mature and we learn more and more what to pray for. Jesus, was always asking people what they truly wanted, sometimes its finding what we truly want that can be the most evasive in our search. I am much more humble in my prayers now, and mostly spend them praying for others. I feel what I pray for is really sort of personal, between me and Jesus. Literally, I will ask him for my own time, just him and I, and there is much truth in those prayers. Jesus knows me more than I know myself, so I try hard not to hide my shortcomings and failures. But I hope me not going into details for you doesnt make you think I am dodging your question (that I feel is sincere), but its like sharing your deepest heart with someone and in my case, that heart is just for Jesus...he gets it all. I guess im a bit selfish in that regard. Do I think he listens? Absolutely. And sometimes, you can even hear him listening. You know, if you ever stop focusing on the metaphor of Christ, and start focusing on his message, I think you'll find that you could learn a lot from Jeanie^2.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #341 July 10, 2008 QuoteFrom my understanding of general relativity, time travel into the future is a provable reality(time dilation). You have a poor understanding of time dilation. Relativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Time is fundamentally related to velocity. That doesn't mean we can travel into the future any faster or slower than anyone else can, though it may seem like it to outside observers. As far as traveling backward in time, t·(a - b·i) is not the same as -c·t.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjjman 0 #342 July 10, 2008 QuoteRelativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Actually it does, at least if you measure that present by the world around you. I could theoretically go 30 years into the future where my daughter would be older than me and my fiance about ready for her AARP subscription. I certainly would consider myself to have escaped "my present.""Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #343 July 10, 2008 You have a poor understanding of time dilation. Relativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Time is fundamentally related to velocity. That doesn't mean we can travel into the future any faster or slower than anyone else can, though it may seem like it to outside observers.QuoteTime travel as you say is related to velocity as well as strong gravitational fields such as an event horizon. My mistake may have been assuming you would know what I was talking about with out elaborating. An observer can theoretically go from one frame of reference to another frame of reference with speed or gravity being varied causing the passage of time to be different. If the speed was close to "c" or the gravity approached that of the escape velocity of light, then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. As far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. God says He can do it, therefore I believe He can. My original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Forward time travel has no affect on free will, therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Therefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #344 July 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteRelativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Actually it does, at least if you measure that present by the world around you. I could theoretically go 30 years into the future where my daughter would be older than me and my fiance about ready for her AARP subscription. I certainly would consider myself to have escaped "my present." Nope. Your world path would be different, but your minute would still pass at the same rate. Your day would still have the same number of minutes. Your world path would just contain less time if you travelled, relative to your daughter, at a velocity with a magnitude sufficiently great enough. While your daughter is in the "world around you" (i.e. moves at a very low speed in comparison to the speed of light, relative to you), you and your daughter will experience approximately the same amount of time. Relativity doesn't predict that clacks run faster or slower depending on speed. It predicts the amount of time there is to be measured relative to other frames of reference.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,489 #345 July 10, 2008 QuoteTime travel as you say is related to velocity as well as strong gravitational fields such as an event horizon. My mistake may have been assuming you would know what I was talking about with out elaborating. An observer can theoretically go from one frame of reference to another frame of reference with speed or gravity being varied causing the passage of time to be different. If the speed was close to "c" or the gravity approached that of the escape velocity of light, then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. As far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. God says He can do it, therefore I believe He can. My original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Forward time travel has no affect on free will, therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Therefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Except forward 'time travel' under general relativity is not in any way related to foreknowledge of events. A person that goes into space at a significant fraction of c and comes back to earth 200 years later will still only experience what is happening in the present, it just so happens that the present is now 200 years later. This is not foreknowledge and I don't understand why you are trying to pretend that the two are related. The foreknowledge that is involved with a truly omniscient God is something else entirely and would require that he know the outcome of all things from the beginning to the end of time before he even set the physical constants for the universe. Freewill in that scenario is meaningless.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #346 July 10, 2008 Quote… then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. No, it would still be his present. Just because two people's world path's intersect at two different points and one of them travels extensively at a speed near the speed of light during the interim does not mean he traveled into the future. His world path simply contains less time between the two intersections. QuoteAs far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. It doesn't suggest it's possible, either. Complex numbers and negative numbers are not the same thing, except in cases where a is negative and b is zero (i.e. the complex number is also a member of the set of real numbers less than zero). If someone were somehow able to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light, their gamma would be a complex number, with both a real component and an imaginary component. In relativity, gamma is defined as 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). Most things in relativity can be found by applying gamma in various ways as a coefficient to the traditional Newtonian definitions. The careful reader will notice that gamma is undefined when v=c, and is complex, not negative real, when v>c. QuoteMy original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Not all physical processes are time symmetrical. QuoteForward time travel has no affect on free will … How did you come to this conclusion? Your interpretation of relativity theory allowing for time travel is incorrect. Quote… therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Again, how did you reach this conclusion? QuoteTherefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Since we know your conclusion based on your assumptions to be false, we can conclude that one or both of your assumptions is false, or your logic is invalid.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #347 July 11, 2008 Quote We were originally created with a mind like Gods. Gods reality and that of original humans was the same. Please explain what the word "reality" mean in the quote above. Were humans omnipotent and omniscient? Were they "nowhere and everywhere"? What exactly was lost? Quote After the fall we must now relearn what we have lost. The work of Christ and Truth found in the Bible is our best bet. Well, I could argue about it. First, "we" did not fall. The person who fell was the God direct creation. Even parents feel responsible for what their children do. But your God not only was irresponsible, he actually BLAMED his creations for being created not the way he liked! Quote God could influence our free will decisions, but He has chosen not to. It is not possible. For example, the God had the choice - either create this tree in Edem (as everything was created by God, right?), or do not create it. The choice he made directly affected the "free will". Quote I don't see why foreknowledge is so hard to understand in relation to free will. Because we have a single time scale, and in any single moment you and I will be doing a single thing. For example, I'm thinking whether I should go skydiving on Sat, or should not. Between those two I could only choose one - even though I obviously have free will. But you cannot BOTH go skydiving, and do not go skydiving. Hope this explains why your "free will" is not free, and is absent for anyone with foreknowledge. Quote Knowledge of past events do not influence the free will that made them. No, the knowledge itself doesn't. But the situation is unique: 1. We have an omnipotent and omniscient God who just created a couple of people. Since they didn't grow up with parents, we could safely assume the God put some knowledge in their brains during creation - after all, they didn't learn to communicate (in terms of language and vocabulary) themselves, right? 2. Now you're claiming the God didn't want them to touch this tree. Since the God was the one who created those people, and educated them, he is at least on some level accountable for their actions (even human parents feel accountable for their children behavior). However the God knew she would eat from the tree, and did NOTHING to correct his lack of education in his creature. 3. So now we have the God who created a person, gave it unsatisfactory education, and he knew that in advance. Then, when the person executed her "free will" in the same way utilizing the knowledge the God put in her brain, you're saying the God PUNISHING her for that? And also the rest of us? And this sounds logical for you?!?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #348 July 11, 2008 Quote They seem to be true at least to me. I would suggest that it doesn't make any sense for you to use yourself as example for someone who does not share your beliefs. It will be as useless as showing how Christ improved your life by your own testimony that you recovered from bad flu after praying Christ. If another person does not believe in Christ, your testimony would not make any sense, and if they do, they do not need your testimony. Also it's conclusion - although after spending a couple of days discussing things with a couple of hardcore Christians I understand that at least some of you guys completely lost the ability to tell the difference between facts and conclusions. What could you replyl the person, who points finger to the tree, and says "this is proof that God exist". It's funny though that they do not accept the same tree as proof that aliens are abducting people. Twisted logic, as you see.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bjjman 0 #349 July 13, 2008 Nope yourself. My daughter who is older than me certainly did not have her minutes pass at the same rate as mine, as she experienced 30 years worth of minutes while I experienced a fraction of that. Do I really need to point that out? Think of it as if we had live video of each other as I traveled (ignore the actual practicality and physics of a video feed billvon). As I traveled, I would watch her and she would be "fast forwarding." As she watched me, I would be in "slow-mo.""Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #350 July 13, 2008 You know, if you ever stop focusing on the metaphor of Christ, and start focusing on his message, I think you'll find that you could learn a lot from Jeanie^2. In your mind I guess you would be right."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #344 July 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteRelativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Actually it does, at least if you measure that present by the world around you. I could theoretically go 30 years into the future where my daughter would be older than me and my fiance about ready for her AARP subscription. I certainly would consider myself to have escaped "my present." Nope. Your world path would be different, but your minute would still pass at the same rate. Your day would still have the same number of minutes. Your world path would just contain less time if you travelled, relative to your daughter, at a velocity with a magnitude sufficiently great enough. While your daughter is in the "world around you" (i.e. moves at a very low speed in comparison to the speed of light, relative to you), you and your daughter will experience approximately the same amount of time. Relativity doesn't predict that clacks run faster or slower depending on speed. It predicts the amount of time there is to be measured relative to other frames of reference.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #345 July 10, 2008 QuoteTime travel as you say is related to velocity as well as strong gravitational fields such as an event horizon. My mistake may have been assuming you would know what I was talking about with out elaborating. An observer can theoretically go from one frame of reference to another frame of reference with speed or gravity being varied causing the passage of time to be different. If the speed was close to "c" or the gravity approached that of the escape velocity of light, then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. As far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. God says He can do it, therefore I believe He can. My original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Forward time travel has no affect on free will, therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Therefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Except forward 'time travel' under general relativity is not in any way related to foreknowledge of events. A person that goes into space at a significant fraction of c and comes back to earth 200 years later will still only experience what is happening in the present, it just so happens that the present is now 200 years later. This is not foreknowledge and I don't understand why you are trying to pretend that the two are related. The foreknowledge that is involved with a truly omniscient God is something else entirely and would require that he know the outcome of all things from the beginning to the end of time before he even set the physical constants for the universe. Freewill in that scenario is meaningless.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #346 July 10, 2008 Quote… then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. No, it would still be his present. Just because two people's world path's intersect at two different points and one of them travels extensively at a speed near the speed of light during the interim does not mean he traveled into the future. His world path simply contains less time between the two intersections. QuoteAs far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. It doesn't suggest it's possible, either. Complex numbers and negative numbers are not the same thing, except in cases where a is negative and b is zero (i.e. the complex number is also a member of the set of real numbers less than zero). If someone were somehow able to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light, their gamma would be a complex number, with both a real component and an imaginary component. In relativity, gamma is defined as 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). Most things in relativity can be found by applying gamma in various ways as a coefficient to the traditional Newtonian definitions. The careful reader will notice that gamma is undefined when v=c, and is complex, not negative real, when v>c. QuoteMy original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Not all physical processes are time symmetrical. QuoteForward time travel has no affect on free will … How did you come to this conclusion? Your interpretation of relativity theory allowing for time travel is incorrect. Quote… therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Again, how did you reach this conclusion? QuoteTherefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will. Since we know your conclusion based on your assumptions to be false, we can conclude that one or both of your assumptions is false, or your logic is invalid.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #347 July 11, 2008 Quote We were originally created with a mind like Gods. Gods reality and that of original humans was the same. Please explain what the word "reality" mean in the quote above. Were humans omnipotent and omniscient? Were they "nowhere and everywhere"? What exactly was lost? Quote After the fall we must now relearn what we have lost. The work of Christ and Truth found in the Bible is our best bet. Well, I could argue about it. First, "we" did not fall. The person who fell was the God direct creation. Even parents feel responsible for what their children do. But your God not only was irresponsible, he actually BLAMED his creations for being created not the way he liked! Quote God could influence our free will decisions, but He has chosen not to. It is not possible. For example, the God had the choice - either create this tree in Edem (as everything was created by God, right?), or do not create it. The choice he made directly affected the "free will". Quote I don't see why foreknowledge is so hard to understand in relation to free will. Because we have a single time scale, and in any single moment you and I will be doing a single thing. For example, I'm thinking whether I should go skydiving on Sat, or should not. Between those two I could only choose one - even though I obviously have free will. But you cannot BOTH go skydiving, and do not go skydiving. Hope this explains why your "free will" is not free, and is absent for anyone with foreknowledge. Quote Knowledge of past events do not influence the free will that made them. No, the knowledge itself doesn't. But the situation is unique: 1. We have an omnipotent and omniscient God who just created a couple of people. Since they didn't grow up with parents, we could safely assume the God put some knowledge in their brains during creation - after all, they didn't learn to communicate (in terms of language and vocabulary) themselves, right? 2. Now you're claiming the God didn't want them to touch this tree. Since the God was the one who created those people, and educated them, he is at least on some level accountable for their actions (even human parents feel accountable for their children behavior). However the God knew she would eat from the tree, and did NOTHING to correct his lack of education in his creature. 3. So now we have the God who created a person, gave it unsatisfactory education, and he knew that in advance. Then, when the person executed her "free will" in the same way utilizing the knowledge the God put in her brain, you're saying the God PUNISHING her for that? And also the rest of us? And this sounds logical for you?!?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #348 July 11, 2008 Quote They seem to be true at least to me. I would suggest that it doesn't make any sense for you to use yourself as example for someone who does not share your beliefs. It will be as useless as showing how Christ improved your life by your own testimony that you recovered from bad flu after praying Christ. If another person does not believe in Christ, your testimony would not make any sense, and if they do, they do not need your testimony. Also it's conclusion - although after spending a couple of days discussing things with a couple of hardcore Christians I understand that at least some of you guys completely lost the ability to tell the difference between facts and conclusions. What could you replyl the person, who points finger to the tree, and says "this is proof that God exist". It's funny though that they do not accept the same tree as proof that aliens are abducting people. Twisted logic, as you see.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjjman 0 #349 July 13, 2008 Nope yourself. My daughter who is older than me certainly did not have her minutes pass at the same rate as mine, as she experienced 30 years worth of minutes while I experienced a fraction of that. Do I really need to point that out? Think of it as if we had live video of each other as I traveled (ignore the actual practicality and physics of a video feed billvon). As I traveled, I would watch her and she would be "fast forwarding." As she watched me, I would be in "slow-mo.""Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #350 July 13, 2008 You know, if you ever stop focusing on the metaphor of Christ, and start focusing on his message, I think you'll find that you could learn a lot from Jeanie^2. In your mind I guess you would be right."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
