kallend 2,028 #126 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Obama the Inexperienced seems to have been the smart one of the bunch. Obama seems to be very good at going with the flow, and saying so eloquently. Voting against the Iraq invasion was hardly "going with the flow", and in retrospect seems pretty smart. 20/20 hindsight works that way a lot...so does Monday-morning quarterbacking. You still find it hard to acknowledge that your hero "The Decider" fucked up mightily, don't you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #127 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Obama the Inexperienced seems to have been the smart one of the bunch. Obama seems to be very good at going with the flow, and saying so eloquently. Voting against the Iraq invasion was hardly "going with the flow", and in retrospect seems pretty smart. 20/20 hindsight works that way a lot...so does Monday-morning quarterbacking. You still find it hard to acknowledge that your hero "The Decider" fucked up mightily, don't you? *yawn* It'll all be better in November, professor...keep your chin up.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #128 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuote Voting against the Iraq invasion was hardly "going with the flow", and in retrospect seems pretty smart. You swing enough times, you're bound to get a hit. First you say he goes with the flow, now you're saying he doesn't, and now and then gets lucky? Which is it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #129 June 26, 2008 Quote First you say he goes with the flow, now you're saying he doesn't, and now and then gets lucky? Which is it? I really don't understand your response here. Obama is very good at going with the flow, then eloquently stating something to that effect.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,028 #130 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuote First you say he goes with the flow, now you're saying he doesn't, and now and then gets lucky? Which is it? I really don't understand your response here. Obama is very good at going with the flow, then eloquently stating something to that effect. And I still don't understand your claim that voting with the monority AGAINST the Iraq invasion was "going with the flow". It was actually the unpopular choice.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #131 June 26, 2008 QuoteAnd I still don't understand your claim that voting with the monority AGAINST the Iraq invasion was "going with the flow". It was actually the unpopular choice. You see, Professor, you have to think of it like salmon swimming upstream during spawning season. The flow of water is in one direction, but the flow of salmon is in the other direction. That allows one to be able to illustrate the strength and character of one going against the flow or the weakness and thoughtlessness of following the flow, depending on what the rhetoric requires.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #132 June 26, 2008 Quotenot at all heat of the moment - if the USA spent less time pissing off the rest of the world - we might not actually need the military. I doubt that, you seem to wish that were true, but alas, it is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #133 June 26, 2008 >First you say he goes with the flow, now you're saying he doesn't, and >now and then gets lucky? Which is it? Well, that depends, doesn't it? When going with the flow is bad for the GOP, he's going with the flow. When going with the flow is good, he's "ignoring the will of the people." I find it funny that the same GOP that is trying to tear him down is starting to use him in their ads. "Joe GOP Senator stood with Barack Obama against blah blah blah." A way to capitalize on his popularity, I imagine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #134 June 26, 2008 Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). I love it when you say it cannot be done. "Those who say it cannot be done are getting in the way of those of us that are already doing it" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #135 June 26, 2008 QuoteSweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). I love it when you say it cannot be done. "Those who say it cannot be done are getting in the way of those of us that are already doing it" The fact that Jim and Bob and Steve and Andy are all beating THEIR wives doesn't mean it's right to beat YOUR wife, too... to use an equally stupid analogy.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #136 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteSweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). I love it when you say it cannot be done. "Those who say it cannot be done are getting in the way of those of us that are already doing it" The fact that Jim and Bob and Steve and Andy are all beating THEIR wives doesn't mean it's right to beat YOUR wife, too... to use an equally stupid analogy. I agree. Just because other countries try to be responsible members of the international community is no reason for the US to make such an attempt.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #137 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteSweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). I love it when you say it cannot be done. "Those who say it cannot be done are getting in the way of those of us that are already doing it" The fact that Jim and Bob and Steve and Andy are all beating THEIR wives doesn't mean it's right to beat YOUR wife, too... to use an equally stupid analogy. I agree. Just because other countries try to be responsible members of the international community is no reason for the US to make such an attempt. Nice reversal - would that be these countries? We've got our warts, as a country - but saying we're worse than the rest of the world is bullshit.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #138 June 26, 2008 >The fact that Jim and Bob and Steve and Andy are all beating THEIR >wives doesn't mean it's right to beat YOUR wife, too... to use an equally >stupid analogy. Yep. And the fact that Jim and Bob and Steve all buy their wives flowers on their birthdays doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, or that it is guaranteed to make them happy. But if it works for them, it suggests it might work for you, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #139 June 26, 2008 QuoteWe've got our warts, as a country - but saying we're worse than the rest of the world is bullshit. As is your straw man argument.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #140 June 26, 2008 beating your wife is a BAD thing. Not needing a standing army because you do not piss off the world is NOT a bad thing. your comparison is bunk - the two do not even relate. Everyone else's example, if it is a GOOD thing, is an acceptable option for you, whether you agree with it or not. we simply disagree - which you are welcome to do, but my answer is as sound as it can be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #141 June 26, 2008 *** True, but to say that we are worse than the rest of the world in the way we handle our foreign policy and the way we throw our military might about - is not at all bullshit. It is primarily (my opinion) the reason so many groups and countries hate us so much - nothing to do with 'hatred of our freedom' like the govt cronies would want us to believe. 'standing armies' and military bases all over the world. THAT is the reason we are hated so much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #142 June 26, 2008 Quote'standing armies' and military bases all over the world. THAT is the reason we are hated so much. Ok... so we've been hated since before WWII, then, and it's really NOT all Bush's fault - cool.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #143 June 26, 2008 sarcasm works so well in print. No we were not hated before WWII, nor shortly after it. But since then we have poked our noses into Vietnam, Central America, Cuba, Israel, the Middle East in General, Afghanistan, Libya, Eastern Europe, Africa, Grenada, and bunch of other places I could probably list if I spent 10 minutes researching it. All of this was done to 'protect American interests', but all of it included military interventions at one level or another. The CONSEQUENCES of those actions are a building hatred of us as a bully, not a 'liberator', which is the word we use. Going it alone, I think they called it. Well, alone we stand for the most part. If you think that we do not need the rest of the world - well......go right ahead and join the ranks of North Korea and such as you spout off your American rhetoric. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #144 June 26, 2008 QuoteSweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). Smaller than the US or decreasing the size of their military? Norway requires compulsory military or other national service for all males over 18. IIRC, Sweden tried to eliminate compulsory service, unsure what the result was. Japan is expanding its military activities and prominence of military within its givernment, including the creation of a cabinet level Ministry of Defense position in 2006 and unprecedented movement of the Maritime Self-Defense Forces (MSDF) to Diego Garcia (>3500 miles from Japan) at the start of OIF. MIT's Dick Samuels makes a very different assertion -- that Japan is moving beyond the "shopworn myths" regarding its security role. See e.g., his latest book Securing Japan: Tokyo's Grand Strategy and the Future of East Asia, which is very good & highly readable, imo. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #145 June 26, 2008 Quote Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). Do you think these countries would be doing this if they didn't know the USA will be there to back them up? Quote I love it when you say it cannot be done. Of course it can be done, in those countries. You can dream there, and actually make it happen in this world. Quote "Those who say it cannot be done are getting in the way of those of us that are already doing it" Exactly.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #146 June 26, 2008 Quote Quote Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). Do you think these countries would be doing this if they didn't know the USA will be there to back them up? ... Do you really think these countries nowadays are wasting one moment to think like you do? We - the rest of the world which, in fact is a bit larger than you might guess - do not move along keeping in mind .... The US will be there to back us up .... Jeez, sounds like you're living in a movie world. We are responsible for our own actions and happy, if you do the same. Welcome to 21st century. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #147 June 26, 2008 I have nothing against compulsory military service, IF it included a radical reduction in the size of our military. If we had such a program, then perhaps that is another way in which we would not need such a massive military (which again we do not 'need', we just think we need) And even if Japan and every other country I named are 'expanding their military powers', they are still a fraction of what the US has, both $$, per capita, sheer numbers, whatever way you want to look at it. Build a standing army and guess what? They are going to want to fight a war somewhere. So stop building the standing army.... fear, plain and simple. I bet foreign policy would be different if George Bush had to walk down main street, Baghdad naked by himself, once a year. Maybe we should consider that. Instead we accept a President that has to build a 30NM veil around himself which shuts down my business every time he comes to town. there are so many things broken it is hard to list them all, and no one is doing anything about it. (We the People....) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #148 June 26, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). Do you think these countries would be doing this if they didn't know the USA will be there to back them up? ... Do you really think these countries nowadays are wasting one moment to think like you do? We - the rest of the world which, in fact is a bit larger than you might guess - do not move along keeping in mind .... The US will be there to back us up .... Jeez, sounds like you're living in a movie world. We are responsible for our own actions and happy, if you do the same. Welcome to 21st century. There is no doubt that a country like Japan enjoys the benefits of the US nuclear umbrella, particularly as North Korea started rattling swords. It knows that if at any point it no longer feels the US will back it, they can have their own nuclear weapons within a very short time. Perfect case of having their cake (anti nuke culture) and eating it too. West Germany happily enjoyed NATO and US forces during the Cold War. This is true for much of Europe. Now, without a threatening Germany or Russia, needs have changed. Certainly France and the UK can relax knowing that they have a nuclear deterrent force. The formation of the EU offers defensive benefits as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,028 #149 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteSweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Japan, Australia, Brazil and dozens of other countries around the world are already doing it (smaller military - not pissing off the rest of the world). I love it when you say it cannot be done. "Those who say it cannot be done are getting in the way of those of us that are already doing it" The fact that Jim and Bob and Steve and Andy are all beating THEIR wives doesn't mean it's right to beat YOUR wife, too... to use an equally stupid analogy. Rather like whining "Clinton Did It First" whenever your hero does something bad.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #150 June 26, 2008 Quote We - the rest of the world which, in fact is a bit larger than you might guess - do not move along keeping in mind .... The US will be there to back us up Of course not. Your pursing your dreams, and that's a good thing. I'd be surprised if your senior leaders don't think about this.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
