VTmotoMike08 0 #101 June 25, 2008 Yes, but civilians were not the primary target. If they were, we could just use poison gas on them... o wait, the current leader was already doing that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #102 June 25, 2008 Quote Yes, but civilians were not the primary target. If they were, we could just use poison gas on them... o wait, the current leader was already doing that "Not the primary target"Oh, well that makes ALL the difference to the bereaved.Or, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #103 June 25, 2008 Quote It's irrelevant whether I think we deserved to be attacked on September 11, 2001; I didn't have anything to do with the attack. What matters is if those who attacked us felt justified in doing so. Examining our foreign policy over the past few decades should offer enough insight to understand not only that they did feel justified, but also why they felt justified. Altruistic is not a word that could be used to objectively describe our foreign policy. In recent decades, the US has developed a habit of poking sticks at hornets nests. We shouldn't wonder why we got stung. OK, I have observed our foreign policy for the last few decades. I conclude that it is sometimes good, sometimes bad and sometimes not sure. However, I do not conclude that anything we have done could even remotely merit a response like 9/11 from any reasonably minded people. The people who did that are F'n nut jobs. Should they continue to wish the same for us, I think that we should hunt them down and kill them before the do it to us. That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #104 June 25, 2008 QuoteI never said that we had the best foreign policy or that they might not have a legit grievance against us. I'm glad I read the rest of the thread before I responded to your original reply. I can see that you're beginning to admit to the bigger picture. To do any less is to be dishonest with yourself and everyone else. And I'd appreciate it if you would not put words into my mouth. Recognizing a very legitimate grievance and condoning reprehensible behavior are two completely different things. And I'll leave it at that. I don't respond well to chest thumping, fear mongering, "with us or against us" bullshit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #105 June 25, 2008 Ever seen Charlie Wilsons war? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #106 June 25, 2008 Agreeded that it does not make a difference to them and that civilian causualities have been a terrible thing. However, "not the primary (intended would have been better) target" does make a difference in answering the implied question in this thread which is: which is worse the US or the Taliban? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #107 June 25, 2008 No it does not. People that are dead are dead no matter who killed them and why. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #108 June 25, 2008 Quote What changes do you propose we make in order to make the fanatics happy? 1) Quit occupying their land and manipulating their governments in order to insure that their oil is readily available to us at a favorable price. You're a big proponent of free market forces, why not let a free and open market sort that one out instead of our military? 2) Hold Israel accountable for their breech of agreements. We need to publicly recognize Israel's shortcomings as voraciously as we do those of the Palestinians. 3) Understand that because a culture doesn't want a McDonald's and Walmart that doesn't mean that they're backwards assed heathens who need "liberating". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #109 June 25, 2008 QuoteQuote What changes do you propose we make in order to make the fanatics happy? 1) Quit occupying their land and manipulating their governments in order to insure that their oil is readily available to us at a favorable price. You're a big proponent of free market forces, why not let a free and open market sort that one out instead of our military? 2) Hold Israel accountable for their breech of agreements. We need to publicly recognize Israel's shortcomings as voraciously as we do those of the Palestinians. 3) Understand that because a culture doesn't want a McDonald's and Walmart that doesn't mean that they're backwards assed heathens who need "liberating". where do you get this crap?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AWL71 0 #110 June 25, 2008 QuoteQuote What changes do you propose we make in order to make the fanatics happy? 1) Quit occupying their land and manipulating their governments in order to insure that their oil is readily available to us at a favorable price. You're a big proponent of free market forces, why not let a free and open market sort that one out instead of our military? 2) Hold Israel accountable for their breech of agreements. We need to publicly recognize Israel's shortcomings as voraciously as we do those of the Palestinians. 3) Understand that because a culture doesn't want a McDonald's and Walmart that doesn't mean that they're backwards assed heathens who need liberating. I have no problem with any of those answers. I believe we need to get out of Iraq asap. But that is not going to be an easy process. And the understanding you mentioned under reply #3 needs to go both ways.The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #111 June 25, 2008 Quote Quote Quote What changes do you propose we make in order to make the fanatics happy? 1) Quit occupying their land and manipulating their governments in order to insure that their oil is readily available to us at a favorable price. You're a big proponent of free market forces, why not let a free and open market sort that one out instead of our military? 2) Hold Israel accountable for their breech of agreements. We need to publicly recognize Israel's shortcomings as voraciously as we do those of the Palestinians. 3) Understand that because a culture doesn't want a McDonald's and Walmart that doesn't mean that they're backwards assed heathens who need "liberating". where do you get this crap? Yeah I mean hell screw reasoning and understanding other cultures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #112 June 25, 2008 Quote So 9/11 was justified in your mind. We deserved it because we made them mad? Because of our offensive lifestyle? I have read some crazy crap in SC but this one takes the cake. What changes do you propose we make in order to make the fanatics happy? Personally I find THEIR lifestyle offensive...I am not a big fan of turning back time to the 7th century. I have to agree here.. the whole we deserved it crap just pisses me off enough to want to obliterate their whole misogynistic culture from the planet. I think they would be far happier with all of their virgins in their paradise.. and the sooner they get there the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #113 June 25, 2008 Quote And the understanding you mentioned under reply #3 needs to go both ways. Sure, I will fully resist any attempt for a foreign element to come into our country and overthrow our government. But even more than that, I flat out will not stand for anyone who insists that our women cover themselves. THAT's where I draw the lineRelated thought: should we really be encouraging the export of our lifestyle? There are 195 countries in the world. How many of them can use 1/4 of the world's resources? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #114 June 25, 2008 > I just said that nothing that we have done merited a response like 9/11. Nothing the people of Iraq have done merited us killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, either. But that happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #115 June 25, 2008 Quote > I just said that nothing that we have done merited a response like 9/11. Nothing the people of Iraq have done merited us killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, either. But that happened. Well well, there is that upsupported number you like to please yourself with"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #116 June 25, 2008 Quote Well well, there is that upsupported number you like to please yourself with He used a conservative estimate.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #117 June 25, 2008 Quote Quote Well well, there is that upsupported number you like to please yourself with He used a conservative estimate. "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #118 June 25, 2008 Quote ummm, are you going to try and tell me that Iraq was responsible for 9/11? No. As I have mentioned before, and will again as necessary, I think Bush has made some bad decisions. He should have listened to Colin Powell, not Cheney and Rumsfeld.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #119 June 25, 2008 Quote The people who did that are F'n nut jobs. And they're not going away anytime soon... The Religion Of Peace Shows Its Fangs http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/indones/articles/20080625.aspx And, another: Quote And by far the most consistent form of Saudi "generosity" since the 1970s has been the promotion of Wahhabism -- a minority form of Islam that tends toward extremism and anti-Semitism -- through the global distribution of madrassas, mosques and missionaries. According to one knowledgeable estimate, this effort has cost at least $75 billion. From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/24/AR2008062401217.html?hpid=opinionsbox1We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #120 June 25, 2008 Quote OK, I have observed our foreign policy for the last few decades. I conclude that it is sometimes good, sometimes bad and sometimes not sure. However, I do not conclude that anything we have done could even remotely merit a response like 9/11 from any reasonably minded people. The people who did that are F'n nut jobs. Should they continue to wish the same for us, I think that we should hunt them down and kill them before the do it to us. That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it. The real problem in this debate is the presumption that war is about what one deserves. It's virtually never about right/wrong. The use of force is done for A to gain power, by attacking B. B might have power that A wants to take, or it may just be an easy target. The Taliban/Al Queda attacked the US for the first reason, the US attacked Iraq for the second. Personally, I'm tired of the we started it first BS. Quite a few reasons for the leadership there to attack was their own self interest in keeping their slaves down. Their society doesn't work if the peons see how those in the West live. They'll want the same for themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #121 June 25, 2008 QuoteQuote ummm, are you going to try and tell me that Iraq was responsible for 9/11? No. As I have mentioned before, and will again as necessary, I think Bush has made some bad decisions. He should have listened to Colin Powell, not Cheney and Rumsfeld. But Cheney and Rumsfeld are so EXPERIENCED, like McCain (who voted for the war too). And Powell argued for the war at the UN. Obama the Inexperienced seems to have been the smart one of the bunch.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #122 June 26, 2008 Quote Obama the Inexperienced seems to have been the smart one of the bunch. Obama seems to be very good at going with the flow, and saying so eloquently. Let's hope he's forced to start providing specifics, soon. Especially on his economic philosophy that's seems firmly grounded in failed liberal policies of the 1960s.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #123 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuote Obama the Inexperienced seems to have been the smart one of the bunch. Obama seems to be very good at going with the flow, and saying so eloquently. Voting against the Iraq invasion was hardly "going with the flow", and in retrospect seems pretty smart.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #124 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Obama the Inexperienced seems to have been the smart one of the bunch. Obama seems to be very good at going with the flow, and saying so eloquently. Voting against the Iraq invasion was hardly "going with the flow", and in retrospect seems pretty smart. 20/20 hindsight works that way a lot...so does Monday-morning quarterbacking.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #125 June 26, 2008 Quote Voting against the Iraq invasion was hardly "going with the flow", and in retrospect seems pretty smart. You swing enough times, you're bound to get a hit.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
