Obama plans to halt future weapons programs, disarm our nuclear program and protect us.

[kallend 2,027]

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Yes, I am an idealist - (you make that sound like it is a bad thing)

It's not a bad thing, especially when you actually have a positive impact on peoples' lives. I think that's wonderful.

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The current government has fucked it up

Agreed. And badly so. Bush should have listened to Colin Powell. I'd vote Powell as President in a heart beat.

Would that be the same Colin Powell who stood before the UN on February 5, 2003, and told a bunch of blatant falsehoods about Iraqi WMDs?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Would that be the same Colin Powell who stood before the UN on February 5, 2003, and told a bunch of blatant falsehoods about Iraqi WMDs?

Yes.

We are all engines of karma

[jcd11235 0]

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So, you actually think the world is full of rational people who can play well together?

Is the world full of rational people? No. Are national leaders largely rational? Yes.

The realist in me admits that we seem to have a problem playing well with others, but the idealist in me believes that implementation of a sound foreign policy could make significant progress towards improving that issue.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[StreetScooby 5]

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...we seem to have a problem playing well with others

You make it sound like it's our call. It's not. Those Islam folks can't even get along with themselves, much less us. But, somehow, you're holding us responsible for this?

We are all engines of karma

[Amazon 7]

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And what about the ones you DID lose, Jeanne? Are they no longer important (or no longer your friends) because they held a different viewpoint?

Sorry to dissappoint... but I have not lost a single friend.. or hell even an aquaintance...and based on PM's.. I have picked up quite a few


Perhaps your mileage is different.. since you seem to think people need to kiss political ass to be friends

[mnealtx 0]

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Sorry to dissappoint... but I have not lost a single friend.. or hell even an aquaintance...and based on PM's.. I have picked up quite a few

Glad to hear it - it wasn't apparent from the reply.

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Perhaps your mileage is different.. since you seem to think people need to kiss political ass to be friends

YOU seem to be the one regularly attacking people for having a different viewpoint, not I.... unless the constant negative comparisons to fundamentalist Christians, Nazis, Klansmen, racists, drug addicts, sexual perverts etc etc etc etc etc is all just pillow talk.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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unless the constant negative comparisons to fundamentalist Christians, Nazis, Klansmen, racists, drug addicts, sexual perverts etc etc etc etc etc is all just pillow talk.

Hmm seems to sound like the repubican party to me.. as evidenced by how many of them have been caught being..........being naughty..... yup. Party of Morality has turned out to be far worse in their morals

[jcd11235 0]

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You make it sound like it's our call. It's not. Those Islam folks can't even get along with themselves, much less us. But, somehow, you're holding us responsible for this?

Yes. When al Qaeda was formed in Afghanistan in the late eighties by our then ally Osama bin Laden, we didn't have a problem with them. After all, they were fighting against the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan, which stood for things like equal rights for women and freedom of religion. Of course, the PDPA was also supported by the USSR, and in the infinite wisdom of US foreign policy, we had to stand firmly against anything the Soviet Union supported. So, we began supporting the mujahideen (the careful reader will notice that mujahideen and jihad share the same root origin) factions and "freedom fighters" such as Gulbuddin Hekmatyar.

“Throughout the world … its agents, client states and satellites are on the defensive — on the moral defensive, the intellectual defensive, and the political and economic defensive. Freedom movements arise and assert themselves. They're doing so on almost every continent populated by man — in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola, in Kampuchea, in Central America … [They are] freedom fighters.”

President Ronald Reagan
March 8, 1985

Now we are facing the repercussions of letting such radical extremists acquire such strength, and call those freedom fighters terrorists, even though their tactics have not changed significantly. And in our Global War On Terror, we are no doubt making more boneheaded foreign policy decisions that will come back to haunt us in another twenty years or so (to say nothing of the ones haunting us now).

To be clear, our (proxy) participation in Afghanistan began with Carter, not Reagan. It appears Clinton was the one to (willingly or otherwise) cut off funding to the mujahideen (though it might possibly have been GHWB at the end of his presidency).

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[tkhayes 348]

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So, over 3000 moms and dads died in my country on 11-Sep-2001, and we're the instigator? Just because these Americans went to work that day, to provide for ...

ummm, are you going to try and tell me that Iraq was responsible for 9/11? Correct me if I am wrong, but that argument was destroyed a long time ago. There is/was no connection. Afghanistan? Yes. And we had every right to invade - we also had a world-wide coalition and the approval of that invasion. Iraq - we pretty much stood alone, except for the British, whose leaders are now paying a similar price (what the fuck are we doing here and how do we get out of this?)

In Iraq, we were the instigator, and that war is costing us more money and reputation that we can afford, the lives of thousands of soldiers (we never hear about that anymore for some reason).

We ought to invade Pakistan, not Iraq, that is where the terrorists are.....

[jenfly00 0]

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The Bush Doctrine is something Americans will have to live down for a few generations to come.

As is Clintons.

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But your Defender of the rePUBICan Right status prevents you from seeing that.

Look in the mirror lately? You've got the closest thing to a terminal case of BDS as I've ever seen, except maybe THIS guy. How many friends have you driven away over the last several years?

I don't even try to debate with you anymore, Jeanne, because the bile and hate that you spew completely drown out the GOOD part of any message you might have.

I can't speak for Jeanne, but I feel pain for my country and have bile and hatred for those currently destroying our country from within and those ideologically driven individuals who continue to support them.

CDIF is less significant than what is happening NOW and if you could possibly make the leap beyond the rather childish rooting for your team over the other, you just might have a chance to understand the serious damage being done to our great nation by the current rat bastards.

You continually want to argue about past rat bastards while Jeanne seem more concerned with the damage being done right now.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[idrankwhat 0]

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What makes you an idealist is that you think the abuses you mention have all been in the last seven years...or so it appears by your postings.

The difference is in magnitude.
It is true that stealing a cookie and stealing the whole jar are both stealing. But c'mon dude, taking the cookie jar, the kitchen and hauling off the baker to an undisclosed location....well that's just going too far.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Today we are the instigator, not the defender.

So, over 3000 moms and dads died in my country on 11-Sep-2001, and we're the instigator? .......

[VTmotoMike08 0]

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Have you ever read up on why they said they attacked us? We were not just "walking along minding our own business" when we were attacked. To ignore our own culpability will do nothing but insure that the conflict continues.

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We are in a culture clash. This ongoing virulent evil culture, commonly referred to as Islam rampant western consumerism, has a serious element who are trying to kill my culture.

The above quote attributed to an al-Pistoff spokesman .

I really can't believe I just read that. So we deserved 9/11 because we live a lifestyle like we do? Wow. So the terrorists are right?

Real reasons why they hated us enough to crash planes into our buildings:
-Our support of Israel
-Their brainwashing culture that tells them we just want to kill Muslims
-General craziness

I have heard your sentiments before, and will no doubt hear it again. It is borderline treason, IMO. I could go on into further reasons that you are terrible mistaken in your viewpoints but I have a feeling my comments would be wasted.

[jcd11235 0]

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I have heard your sentiments before, and will no doubt hear it again. It is borderline treason, IMO.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

It's not even close to treason. It's an objective view of reality.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[VTmotoMike08 0]

>adhering to their enemies

If you crash an airplane into our buildings to make a political statement, you are our enemy (among other things). If you agree with doing so, I believe that qualifies as adhering (to their ideas). Could also be interpreted to mean giving mental aid and comfort, kinda like the opposite of "support the troops"

So I ask you: Do you think that we deserved 9/11? If you do, then I think that makes you an enemy of this country and an all around despicable person.

Cheers.

Edited to clarify adhesion and aid/ comfort.

[Hausse 0]

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Have you ever read up on why they said they attacked us? We were not just "walking along minding our own business" when we were attacked. To ignore our own culpability will do nothing but insure that the conflict continues.

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We are in a culture clash. This ongoing virulent evil culture, commonly referred to as Islam rampant western consumerism, has a serious element who are trying to kill my culture.

The above quote attributed to an al-Pistoff spokesman .

I really can't believe I just read that. So we deserved 9/11 because we live a lifestyle like we do? Wow. So the terrorists are right?

Real reasons why they hated us enough to crash planes into our buildings:
-Our support of Israel
-Their brainwashing culture that tells them we just want to kill Muslims
-General craziness

I have heard your sentiments before, and will no doubt hear it again. It is borderline treason, IMO. I could go on into further reasons that you are terrible mistaken in your viewpoints but I have a feeling my comments would be wasted.

As far as I know the taliban hate you because you dumped them after having them fight a war for you and that the Iraqis don't like you all that much might have a connection to the fact that you invaded their country based on faked evidence.

Just a guess though...

[VTmotoMike08 0]

I never said that we had the best foreign policy or that they might not have a legit grievance against us. I just said that nothing that we have done merited a response like 9/11.

[AWL71 0]

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Today we are the instigator, not the defender.

So, over 3000 moms and dads died in my country on 11-Sep-2001, and we're the instigator? .......

Have you ever read up on why they said they attacked us? We were not just "walking along minding our own business" when we were attacked. To ignore our own culpability will do nothing but insure that the conflict continues.

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We are in a culture clash. This ongoing virulent evil culture, commonly referred to as Islam rampant western consumerism, has a serious element who are trying to kill my culture.

The above quote attributed to an al-Pistoff spokesman .

[Hausse 0]

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I never said that we had the best foreign policy or that they might not have a legit grievance against us. I just said that nothing that we have done merited a response like 9/11.

On the other hand I'm pretty sure that nothing that the Taliban (which are mostly Saudi Arabian and Afghanis) have done merited an invasion in Iraq.

[jcd11235 0]

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>adhering to their enemies

If you crash an airplane into our buildings to make a political statement, you are our enemy (among other things). If you agree with doing so, I believe that qualifies as adhering.

Way too misconstrue the Constitution.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Notice the location of the coordinating conjunction.

How is recognizing our own culpability giving aid and comfort to the enemy?

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So I ask you: Do you think that we deserved 9/11? If you do, then I think that makes you an enemy of this country and an all around despicable person.

It's irrelevant whether I think we deserved to be attacked on September 11, 2001; I didn't have anything to do with the attack. What matters is if those who attacked us felt justified in doing so. Examining our foreign policy over the past few decades should offer enough insight to understand not only that they did feel justified, but also why they felt justified.

Altruistic is not a word that could be used to objectively describe our foreign policy. In recent decades, the US has developed a habit of poking sticks at hornets nests. We shouldn't wonder why we got stung.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[VTmotoMike08 0]

I agree that we goofed on the invasion of Iraq. However, we did not go in with the declared purpose of killing as many civilians as possible. There has been significant civilian causualities, but our declared target was the government.

When the Taliban crashed planes into the WTC, they were trying to kill as many civilians as possible. That makes 9/11 far worse than the Iraq invasion in my mind.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Why do you keep comparing the attack on New York with the invasion of Iraq? Why don't you compare Iraq to Pearl Harbour or the Alamo? The comparisons are just as relevant.

[kallend 2,027]

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I agree that we goofed on the invasion of Iraq. However, we did not go in with the declared purpose of killing as many civilians as possible. There has been significant civilian causualities, but our declared target was the government.

When the Taliban crashed planes into the WTC, they were trying to kill as many civilians as possible. That makes 9/11 far worse than the Iraq invasion in my mind.

Pretty naive to think that an armed invasion (of a sovereign nation that, in fact, presented no threat to us), preceded by an intense bombing campaign would not kill a whole bunch of civilians. We KNEW we would be killing civilians.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

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Why do you keep comparing the attack on New York with the invasion of Iraq? Why don't you compare Iraq to Pearl Harbour or the Alamo? The comparisons are just as relevant.

Because we at least gave them a little heads up that we would be coming to Iraq. Pearl Harbor was a lot more of a surprise. And I did not start that, it was another poster who implied that if 9/11 was unwarented (as I believe) then so was the invasion of Iraq (which I also believe).

[Hausse 0]

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I agree that we goofed on the invasion of Iraq. However, we did not go in with the declared purpose of killing as many civilians as possible. There has been significant civilian causualities, but our declared target was the government.

When the Taliban crashed planes into the WTC, they were trying to kill as many civilians as possible. That makes 9/11 far worse than the Iraq invasion in my mind.

Okay first, invading a country does not or will it ever count as "goofed". Killing thousands of people (even if there were a rightful reason) just doesn't fall in that category.

Second, that your "declared target" was the government, ( the oil as some might say) or as Bush turned it now, the bad bad terrorists doesn't help the innocent kids, parents and everybody else that was killed all that much.

And third, I would say that the motive is not nearly as important as the outcome. The Taliban killed a few thousand innocent people which is with no doubt horrible and was wrong in every way but the invasion in Iraq has killed FAR more people (Americans and Iraqi's alike) so I do not agree that it was not as bad.