SkyChimp 0 #26 July 15, 2008 Quote Quote are we all at fault or just America?? ;-) Everyone who uses oil is responsible for using oil.Who is responsible for delaying a transition to alternative fuels and technologies? The energy and transportation industries and their pet legislators. I'm with you on that. We are all responsible but most of the time you just hear about America being the largest consuming country. Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #27 July 15, 2008 Quote> are we all at fault or just America? Many of us consider ourselves Americans, so sorta both. (The whole world, actually.) Take one simple example - the electric car. A recent documentary analyzed why the EV1 program failed. Was it customer ignorance? Corporate greed? Legal shenangians? Problems with our government? Answer - yes to all. The one factor that was NOT a reason it failed was technology; the technology is here, and the EV1 was, by every analysis, a popular and well-received vehicle. I would love to see that new TESLA car go into full production. It was on the front cover of this month's Fortune Magazine. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds!!! 100% electric but the car is prices way to high right now and it's not in full production yet. Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #28 July 15, 2008 Quote Quote look at them now! GM and Ford are currently considering bankruptcy options. They have financial issues because they banked on always selling large SUVs and pickup trucks. I hear Mercedes is getting ready to sell off Chrysler as well. OUCH Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #29 July 15, 2008 QuoteBut when the oil runs out, you are going to discover that you need oil for a lot more than motor fuel - you need it for drugs, plastics, asphalt, lubricants and industrial process feedstock. And I thought I heard a statistic that something like only about 20 or 30% of our consumption was for transportation." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #30 July 15, 2008 Quote Quote Quote are we all at fault or just America?? ;-) Everyone who uses oil is responsible for using oil.Who is responsible for delaying a transition to alternative fuels and technologies? The energy and transportation industries and their pet legislators. I'm with you on that. We are all responsible but most of the time you just hear about America being the largest consuming country. Everybody eats too. But there's a difference between the diets of Lance Armstrong and the guy who eats so much he can't get out of his bed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,073 #31 July 15, 2008 >Is there any reason in the world why they crushed the EV and EV1? Many. They didn't want to deal with the service issues. (Completely different training programs for mechanics, and almost no regular maintenance or parts sales.) The CARB dropped their ZEV requirement. Car companies feared that the government would require more electric vehicles if it could be proven that they worked. Oil companies bought critical patents and sat on them, and pressured CARB to rescind the ZEV mandate. They also suffered from "next big thing"itis - in this case hydrogen fuel cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,073 #32 July 15, 2008 >And I thought I heard a statistic that something like only about 20 or 30% >of our consumption was for transportation. About 55% of every barrel is converted to gasoline. You also get heavy bunker oil for ships, diesel, kerosene and jet-A. I think overall about 70% of every barrel goes for transportation. There's some 'slop' in the process and you can optimize for a specific fuel if necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #33 July 15, 2008 I saw that documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car" It was interesting, although pretty biased (I prefer my documentaries to be more in the middle and let the viewer draw their own conclusions). It is interesting how the company, market force, and social ideas combined to kill what, IMO, was a pretty good alternative. Something like that was perfect for my everyday commute. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #34 July 15, 2008 QuoteI saw that documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car" It was interesting, although pretty biased (I prefer my documentaries to be more in the middle and let the viewer draw their own conclusions). It is interesting how the company, market force, and social ideas combined to kill what, IMO, was a pretty good alternative. Something like that was perfect for my everyday commute. Blues, Ian I don't think that market forces were allowed to play out. The cars weren't marketed very well. I didn't even hear about them over here on the east coast until well after they were being shredded. Also, when you crush your product instead of selling it to a willing buyer that takes market forces out of the equation. EV still has a significant customer base. One of the RAV4 EV's that was spared destruction recently sold for $60K. I'd pay good money for ten year old technology, if I could. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #35 July 15, 2008 What does this mean: Quote"I readily concede it won't produce a barrel of oil tomorrow, but it will reverse the psychology," Bush told a White House news conference. And somehow he connects this to his speech on bailing out Mae/Mac?? Could he try to confound the issues here any more? QuoteBush acknowledged it could take years before opening the Outer Continental Shelf to oil drilling would result in increased U.S. production. But, he said, at least it would put the nation on the right track toward reducing its reliance on imported oil. "There is no short term solution," Bush said. "The president doesn't have a magic wand. You can't just say, 'Low gas.'" Asked about his comment earlier this year that he hadn't heard of $4 gasoline, Bush said: "I've heard of it now." Quote "I don't think the government ought to be involved in bailing out companies," Bush said. Um, doesn't he know those are both government agencies?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #36 July 15, 2008 Quote Quote "I don't think the government ought to be involved in bailing out companies," Bush said. Um, doesn't he know those are both government agencies? Hmmmm....a government agency....paid for by the taxpayer.......selling shares to individual stock holders....bailed out by the taxpayer. Ok, who's lousy idea was that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 July 15, 2008 Quote I hear Mercedes is getting ready to sell off Chrysler as well. OUCH That happened in 2007, at a considerable loss. Paid 36B in 1998, sold 80.1% to Cerberus, actually paying them 650M to take the turkey and its debt. Cerberus invested 7.4B for its piece. Deal completed in August. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #38 July 15, 2008 QuoteI would love to see that new TESLA car go into full production. It was on the front cover of this month's Fortune Magazine. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds!!! 100% electric but the car is prices way to high right now and it's not in full production yet. The article talks about the divide that formed between the primary founders - one who wanted to build the perfect electric based sports car, and one who wanted to build an electric GM. These sort of problems have lead to the year delay on the release. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #39 July 16, 2008 QuoteThe article talks about the divide that formed between the primary founders - one who wanted to build the perfect electric based sports car, and one who wanted to build an electric GM. These sort of problems have lead to the year delay on the release. Yes it does.... However $109K as a retail price isn't very realistic for the middle class if you are claiming your car will create a "break thru" to solve economic conditions. Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,073 #40 July 16, 2008 >However $109K as a retail price isn't very realistic for the middle class >if you are claiming your car will create a "break thru" to solve economic >conditions. No one is claiming the car will "solve economic conditions." It is merely one of the first of a new generation of electric vehicles. As other manufacturers get involved, economies of scale will drive prices down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #41 July 16, 2008 Quote Yes it does.... However $109K as a retail price isn't very realistic for the middle class if you are claiming your car will create a "break thru" to solve economic conditions. It's new technology that isn't being introduced by a deep pocketed major car company. The idea is to get it out there. The more you make, the cheaper it gets. And 220 miles on a charge is a serious break through. Besides, when you compare it to Ferrari, Porche, Lamborghini, Lotus, etc. it's surprisingly comparable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #42 July 24, 2008 I found this on the AP wire this morning and thought it was interesting........ The area north of the Arctic Circle has an estimated 90 billion barrels of undiscovered, technically recoverable oil and 1,670 trillion cubic feet of technically recoverable natural gas, the U.S. Geological Survey announced Wednesday. The USGS said technically recoverable resources are those produced using currently available industry practices and technology. The Arctic accounts for about 13 percent of the world's undiscovered oil and 30 percent of the undiscovered natural gas, the USGS reported. "Before we can make decisions about our future use of oil and gas and related decisions about protecting endangered species, native communities and the health of our planet, we need to know what's out there," USGS Director Mark Myers said. "With this assessment, we're providing the same information to everyone in the world so that the global community can make those difficult decisions." The three provinces of West Siberian Basin, the East Barents Basins and Arctic Alaska are said to hold more than 70 percent of the undiscovered natural gas. Though the Arctic is virtually unexplored with respect to petroleum, the search for it has resulted in the discovery of more than 400 oil and gas fields north of the Arctic Circle. Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #43 July 24, 2008 QuoteI would love to see that new TESLA car go into full production. It was on the front cover of this month's Fortune Magazine. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds!!! 100% electric but the car is prices way to high right now and it's not in full production yet. I've always wondered about the 100% electric cars. Questions I have: You still need to recharge it somewhere. Electricity costs. There would be a much higher need for the electicity now. Business would probably charge you for thier use at their business. Wouldn't you need alternative source of electricity generation, vice oil, before we can even consider a electrical auto society?_____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #44 July 24, 2008 QuoteQuoteI would love to see that new TESLA car go into full production. It was on the front cover of this month's Fortune Magazine. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds!!! 100% electric but the car is prices way to high right now and it's not in full production yet. I've always wondered about the 100% electric cars. Questions I have: You still need to recharge it somewhere. Electricity costs. There would be a much higher need for the electicity now. Business would probably charge you for thier use at their business. Wouldn't you need alternative source of electricity generation, vice oil, before we can even consider a electrical auto society? Coal supplies around 50 percent of US electricity, nuclear about 20 percent; natural gas under 20 percent, hydro- 7 percent, oil about 2 percent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #45 July 24, 2008 Quote The area north of the Arctic Circle has an estimated 90 billion barrels of undiscovered..... That sounds great. And if we spend the tax money that we use to subsidize the petroleum industry and divert it to alternative energy development then we can leave it there as a strategic reserve for our gas guzzling military instead of burning it all up as quickly as possible, create jobs in America and (inhale) help drive the developing green technology sector instead of waiting for the Europeans and Arabs to it thereby continuing our dependency on foreign sources for our energy needs. (whew!) How's that for a run on sentence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #46 July 24, 2008 Quote I've always wondered about the 100% electric cars. Questions I have: You still need to recharge it somewhere. Electricity costs. There would be a much higher need for the electicity now. Business would probably charge you for thier use at their business. Wouldn't you need alternative source of electricity generation, vice oil, before we can even consider a electrical auto society? Electricity costs less/mile than gasoline. Most of the charging would occur during off peak hours while people were at home. But yes, we would indeed have to continue to build up the infrastructure and sources of supply if we were going to shift to all electric. I personally think that solar thermal technology has the most to offer WRT newer, cleaner sources. Additionally, I think the larger supply problem involved with an electric auto society would be the impact on the auto parts and service industries. Those guys are going to get hammered. Electric cars don't need nearly as many consumables or service as their petroleum counterparts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #47 July 24, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteI would love to see that new TESLA car go into full production. It was on the front cover of this month's Fortune Magazine. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds!!! 100% electric but the car is prices way to high right now and it's not in full production yet. I've always wondered about the 100% electric cars. Questions I have: You still need to recharge it somewhere. Electricity costs. There would be a much higher need for the electicity now. Business would probably charge you for thier use at their business. Wouldn't you need alternative source of electricity generation, vice oil, before we can even consider a electrical auto society? Coal supplies around 50 percent of US electricity, nuclear about 20 percent; natural gas under 20 percent, hydro- 7 percent, oil about 2 percent. Coal 50%. . . Oil 2%. . .There's my accountancy issue. Or, also known as, I should learn to google narrower keywords. So really, it's a non-issue for oil dependence. It's just a matter of increasing demand for electricity and power outlet drops in downtown. I see a severe demand for electricians both in the auto and public works industry. The concept of gas stations will disappear as storefronts charge you to park-and-charge or morph to eloquent rest-stops-while-your-car-charges businesses on large stretch of highways. Multiple private power companies may spring up. This would change society as much as the computer did. (why are my hands suddenly doing gleeful hand-washing movements?)_____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #48 July 24, 2008 It's my understanding, the reason for high oil prices in this country is due to 'speculators' driving-up the price so as to turn a quick fortune in their favor. Also, all this talk of off-shore drilling and drilling in the Arctic... what about all that oil that flows through the pipeline from Alaska to the port of Seattle and is loaded onto tanker ships and goes straight to the Orient? When that pipeline was first built, it was explained to us that the pipeline would end our worries in this country for oil and ease our dependency on foreign oil. About all we see of all that oil is what spills on the docks! What's the deal? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #49 July 24, 2008 DUDE......it does not come to Seattle.. For awhile it was being shipped to Asia.. but I think even though AK Senator Ted Stevens(R) pushed for selling to the highest bidder.. and got the law changed that required it to be sold domestically. Most nowadays goes to CA for refining. http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp There is a refinery in Anacortes WA...but the price of gas is higher here next to the refinery than it is many other places in the country....http://autos.msn.com/everyday/GasStations.aspx?m=1&l=1&zip=98273&x=18&y=5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #50 July 24, 2008 QuoteIt's my understanding, the reason for high oil prices in this country is due to 'speculators' driving-up the price so as to turn a quick fortune in their favor. Also, all this talk of off-shore drilling and drilling in the Arctic... what about all that oil that flows through the pipeline from Alaska to the port of Seattle and is loaded onto tanker ships and goes straight to the Orient? When that pipeline was first built, it was explained to us that the pipeline would end our worries in this country for oil and ease our dependency on foreign oil. About all we see of all that oil is what spills on the docks! What's the deal? Chuck The emerging markets are the biggest cause of oil prices. China has increased oil consumption exponentially and they are going to need more. Almost five years ago, a group of us taking a Global Business class were discussing this (brought up by my want of buying a gas-guzzling beast of a truck). So far the steady increase has proven to have been on track. I figure gas prices will be up to $5 by mid next year and probably hover at 8 to 10 a gallon before india and china's needs level off. As far a speculation. . . That's very hard to point at. Everything in life in the economic world is circled by speculation. Because Southwest airlines bought gas futures, they can still make a buck now. The dollar speculated by currency dealers and the IMF. All crops are specuation. And buying a case of Chateau Haut Brion is a futures market that is pure speculation that can't be tasted for seven years at least. It works both ways, it lowers and raises prices depending on how undervalued or overvalued it is._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
