You/your s/o's fetus tests positive for Down Syndrome - Do you abort?
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Conundrum, in Speakers Corner
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klingeme 1
Quote[replyHow many pro choicers would have a problem with a woman that...aborted every month
Doesn't have to be one or the other.
I think abortion is morally and tragically wrong, and I am pro-choice. I wouldn't have a "problem" as you say with that woman, because I have no business telling her what she can't do with her pregnancy and her body, nor any business at all in even giving her my opinion unless asked for.
You believe it is "morally and tragically wrong" but do you believe it is ending a life? What about teenage girls that throw their newborns in the dumpster, Still just "morally and tragically wrong" or is that actually killing something?
I have no problem telling women that killing babies is wrong and should be illegal.
QuoteQuote[replyHow many pro choicers would have a problem with a woman that...aborted every month
Doesn't have to be one or the other.
I think abortion is morally and tragically wrong, and I am pro-choice. I wouldn't have a "problem" as you say with that woman, because I have no business telling her what she can't do with her pregnancy and her body, nor any business at all in even giving her my opinion unless asked for.
You believe it is "morally and tragically wrong" but do you believe it is ending a life? What about teenage girls that throw their newborns in the dumpster, Still just "morally and tragically wrong" or is that actually killing something?
I have no problem telling women that killing babies is wrong and should be illegal.
I'm also pro choice but would love to see no abortions ever happen. Problem is that even if it's illegal, they are still going to occur, just on the streets. It makes more sense to eliminate the 'need' for abortion... better sex ed, easier access to birth control and sterilization, better adoption networks.
Abortion is a symptom of a far greater problem. Treating the symptom does nothing for the actual issue, only masks it for a while. If 'Christians' wanted to make a real difference.. adopt a kid out of the foster care system... the crack babies, the older kids, the sibling groups... the ones that never get a real chance and end up making the issues worse. Take in a high risk teen to help them out. Support a high risk family on a very personal and real basis... give them a job, give them a home. Pay for a vasectomy or tube tying for someone who wants it but can't afford it. One person at a time, the symptom can be addressed and the abortion industry long term would decline as a result.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
skydyvr 0
QuoteI certainly wouldnt expect you to understand such love Christel....and few others either.
That's a holier-than-thou load of horseshit.
What is the IQ of a man who fails to grasp the gist of the very book he's been waving around for so many years.
. . =(_8^(1)
klingeme 1
QuoteI'm also pro choice but would love to see no abortions ever happen. Problem is that even if it's illegal, they are still going to occur, just on the streets. It makes more sense to eliminate the 'need' for abortion... better sex ed, easier access to birth control and sterilization, better adoption networks.
How's that working so far. Sounds something like "we need someone to pick the cotton crop and we don't have the money to hire someone, so while slaver is "morally and tragically wrong" we can't change it because of what might happen. Who would pick the cotton? We'll have to change it later.
QuoteAbortion is a symptom of a far greater problem. Treating the symptom does nothing for the actual issue, only masks it for a while. If 'Christians' wanted to make a real difference.. adopt a kid out of the foster care system... the crack babies, the older kids, the sibling groups... the ones that never get a real chance and end up making the issues worse. Take in a high risk teen to help them out. Support a high risk family on a very personal and real basis... give them a job, give them a home. Pay for a vasectomy or tube tying for someone who wants it but can't afford it. One person at a time, the symptom can be addressed and the abortion industry long term would decline as a result.
So let the babies die while we try to figure something out.
How about making adoption easier. You don't have to pass a single test to have a kid, so stop making it so people (Gay, straight, single, barren, whatever the case) adopt a kid if they want one without having to hope through hoops for years. Just hand these "mistakes" out to people who want them, rather than throwing them away without giving them a chance.
Squeak 17
QuoteYeah because we all know that EVERYONE who wants a kids would be a FANTASTIC parentQuote.
Just hand these "mistakes" out to people who want them, rather than throwing them away without giving them a chance.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?
wmw999 2,545
There are thousands of kids out there who need to be adopted. No waiting list. Fees are minimal, and sometimes covered by the state. Benefits to the kids are huge.
But they're often tough kids to adopt. They have problems, and everyone wants babies, because at least the problems are more predictable.
So encourage people to adopt foster children. Kudos to peregrinerose.
Wendy W.
But they're often tough kids to adopt. They have problems, and everyone wants babies, because at least the problems are more predictable.
So encourage people to adopt foster children. Kudos to peregrinerose.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
QuoteHow's that working so far. Sounds something like "we need someone to pick the cotton crop and we don't have the money to hire someone, so while slaver is "morally and tragically wrong" we can't change it because of what might happen. Who would pick the cotton? We'll have to change it later.
Working pretty well so far, I'm in the matching process now to adopt 2 boys (age 9 or older) out of the foster care system from my own state. I'm making a difference because it's the right thing to do, yet I look at my 'Christian' collegues and neighbors who sit on their high horses telling others what to believe, popping out their herds of kids because they don't believe in birth control (or apparently absinence), without lifting a finger to make a difference with the problems that are already here. That's hypocrisy.
QuoteHow about making adoption easier. You don't have to pass a single test to have a kid, so stop making it so people (Gay, straight, single, barren, whatever the case) adopt a kid if they want one without having to hope through hoops for years. Just hand these "mistakes" out to people who want them, rather than throwing them away without giving them a chance.
How about making it a little harder to have a kid? Better birth control, better pre-conception education, etc.? Who has to jump through hoops for years? I went through 24 hours of training over the course of a month, FBI, child abuse, and criminal record checks, 3 references, a 4 hour home visit, wrote a biography, proved my income, and filled out a binder full of forms. Sure it was work, but don't exaggerate.... it's not going to take years to adopt... it's only a PITA if you are looking for an infant or going over seas. There are 100,000+ kids in the US alone that are legally free for adoption. Most of them will age out of the system and never have a forever home.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
Chris: I saw Lindsay this morning, made her some breakfast, and gave her a kiss....for you.
Mission Accomplished.
Thanks for your kind thoughts.
Bill Cole
Mission Accomplished.
Thanks for your kind thoughts.
Bill Cole
Your unknowledgeable opinion means NOTHING.
I can assure you, my IQ is extremely higher than yours....and I have never met you....Thanks be to God.
I can assure you, my IQ is extremely higher than yours....and I have never met you....Thanks be to God.
feuergnom 29
not to (clue?)chuteless: PA`s tend to get you banned.
and if thats a PA - i'll take the ban with grace
and if thats a PA - i'll take the ban with grace
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle
dudeist skydiver # 666
dudeist skydiver # 666
skydyvr 0
QuoteYour unknowledgeable opinion means NOTHING.
Whatever it takes to get you through your day Mr. Holy Man.
It'll all be better soon, I'm sure.
. . =(_8^(1)
QuoteYour unknowledgeable opinion means NOTHING.
I can assure you, my IQ is extremely higher than yours....and I have never met you....Thanks be to God.
Wow, really? Get off your high horse, pal.
QuoteYour unknowledgeable opinion means NOTHING.
I can assure you, my IQ is extremely higher than yours....and I have never met you....Thanks be to God.
Hypocrisy like this is exactly why I left organized religion. Could you imagine Jesus using words like this? How can you call yourself Christian, but use very un-Christian attitudes and demeanor?
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
Quote
...
Your nation has a history of treating Downs Syndrome children, and it is well known in the world.
Try to understand...there are people who think differently to your nation's manner of dealing with Downs.
BS. What I wrote has nothing to do with what happend 60+ years ago. Just a red herring you use here.
You're simply avoiding to answer my question.
QuoteYou continue to show you have no insight into so many issues.
Seems to be your standard statement. It's OK for me as it 's nothing to speak of.
I really do not ask for more detailed lore about issues of some people. You belong to them.
dudeist skydiver # 3105
skydyvr 0
QuoteHow can you call yourself Christian, but use very un-Christian attitudes and demeanor?
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reasonable answer.
Clueless Chuteless has a well established history of ignoring any question which calls for something more than an edict.
. . =(_8^(1)
Ive been reading this thread and voted that I personally would not have aborted had I found that out. I worked very hard to have the kids I have and my baby factory was removed for repairs so knowing I had a small window to have children I would not have aborted. Im pro-life, as you are, however people like you and how you express such beliefs is exactly why pro-lifers get a bad name.
Regardless of how much a blessing any child is, no one wishes to have one with a disability, I dont care how loud you shout it. First off caring for a child with a disability is drastically harder, but it is also more expensive. Praying for your child to have down syndrome is disgusting because that prayer in itself is limiting the life that child could have. First off a child with downs has a higher chance of heart defects , intestinal and stomach problems, oh yes lets pray to have a kid who may be prone to that.
Also since a downs child looks different they may be teased and bullied by such, I dont wish for my child to be tortured, and since not all downs kids are to mentally retarded to understand , they are affected by such. To state you or your daughter WANT this for a unborn child is wrong in my opinion and mean. I wanted healthy children. I was however willing to accept the medical problems my youngest had that were associated with premature birth.
Its great you love the child that has downs, but to me its mean to put her above your other grandchildren as more important. One day I will have grandchildren, and never will a day come I express and point out in such a remarkable way how I love one more or one is more special then the others.
And last, its okay for you to have your opinions but attacking others because they have different ones or dont understand your inability to tollerate differences shows your ineptness in debating.
Back on topic, Im pro life for me, but support pro choice with certain critera...First off I think a man has as much a choice with the fetus as the woman, if she wants to abort she should have his permission. I also do not believe abortion is a means of birth control, and it should be done early. Had one of my children been diagnosed with downs before birth Id have opted to keep the child, at least I think I would, since that didnt happen its hard to state 100% what I would have done. That being said I think someone who opts to abort that child is not doing so without thinking of whats best for everyone including the child...its such a hard thing to say "Its black and white, decide" because like everything else in life, there is a huge grey area.
Regardless of how much a blessing any child is, no one wishes to have one with a disability, I dont care how loud you shout it. First off caring for a child with a disability is drastically harder, but it is also more expensive. Praying for your child to have down syndrome is disgusting because that prayer in itself is limiting the life that child could have. First off a child with downs has a higher chance of heart defects , intestinal and stomach problems, oh yes lets pray to have a kid who may be prone to that.
Also since a downs child looks different they may be teased and bullied by such, I dont wish for my child to be tortured, and since not all downs kids are to mentally retarded to understand , they are affected by such. To state you or your daughter WANT this for a unborn child is wrong in my opinion and mean. I wanted healthy children. I was however willing to accept the medical problems my youngest had that were associated with premature birth.
Its great you love the child that has downs, but to me its mean to put her above your other grandchildren as more important. One day I will have grandchildren, and never will a day come I express and point out in such a remarkable way how I love one more or one is more special then the others.
And last, its okay for you to have your opinions but attacking others because they have different ones or dont understand your inability to tollerate differences shows your ineptness in debating.
Back on topic, Im pro life for me, but support pro choice with certain critera...First off I think a man has as much a choice with the fetus as the woman, if she wants to abort she should have his permission. I also do not believe abortion is a means of birth control, and it should be done early. Had one of my children been diagnosed with downs before birth Id have opted to keep the child, at least I think I would, since that didnt happen its hard to state 100% what I would have done. That being said I think someone who opts to abort that child is not doing so without thinking of whats best for everyone including the child...its such a hard thing to say "Its black and white, decide" because like everything else in life, there is a huge grey area.
Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this
klingeme 1
Quoteits such a hard thing to say "Its black and white, decide" because like everything else in life, there is a huge grey area.
I don't think it is a grey area at all. You either believe life starts at conception or at birth. If you don't believe conception starts life, then the only other "exact instant" life begins would be at birth. With this understanding, someone having an abortion 1 day before they are due should not be any different than having a mole removed "because I didn't want it there anymore".
If someone else can tell me an instant that life begins (magical moment) my views might change, but I don't see how anyone can be "Pro Choice" and still think the fetus is alive. If it is alive you are killing a baby when you have an abortion, be it 1 day before birth, at the end of the "magical" 1st or 2nd trimester.
Lindsey 0
I don't think it is a grey area at all. You either believe life starts at conception or at birth. If you don't believe conception starts life, then the only other "exact instant" life begins would be at birth. With this understanding, someone having an abortion 1 day before they are due should not be any different than having a mole removed "because I didn't want it there anymore".
What you're missing, though, is that even though some people may agree with you that life begins at conception, that may not be their marker for when in pregnancy it's acceptable to abort an embryo or a fetus. For some, whether there is ability to live on it own outside the mother's uterus. For others it's whether it is capable of suffering from the procedure. For others it's whether it could have consciousness. Lots of people have lots of different thoughts on the issue, and I'd have to agree that there's a HUGE grey area.
:)
linz
What you're missing, though, is that even though some people may agree with you that life begins at conception, that may not be their marker for when in pregnancy it's acceptable to abort an embryo or a fetus. For some, whether there is ability to live on it own outside the mother's uterus. For others it's whether it is capable of suffering from the procedure. For others it's whether it could have consciousness. Lots of people have lots of different thoughts on the issue, and I'd have to agree that there's a HUGE grey area.
:)
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
klingeme 1
QuoteI don't think it is a grey area at all. You either believe life starts at conception or at birth. If you don't believe conception starts life, then the only other "exact instant" life begins would be at birth. With this understanding, someone having an abortion 1 day before they are due should not be any different than having a mole removed "because I didn't want it there anymore".
What you're missing, though, is that even though some people may agree with you that life begins at conception, that may not be their marker for when in pregnancy it's acceptable to abort an embryo or a fetus. For some, whether there is ability to live on it own outside the mother's uterus.Quote
What newborn baby can exist outside of the uterus without assistance (Food, water, shelter), and if this is the case, is throwing a newborn in a dumpster considered abortion?
For others it's whether it is capable of suffering from the procedure.QuoteWho really knows when "feelings" come into play?
For others it's whether it could have consciousness.QuoteIs a newborn really "Conscious" (1. the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.), and so by that definition, the dumpster
Lots of people have lots of different thoughts on the issue, and I'd have to agree that there's a HUGE grey area.QuoteI don't think there is any "Grey" area, only a living thing that is being killed.
BTW, I mentioned this in an earlier post, but part of the reason I am so firm on my beliefs is that I was born with minor brain damage (hydrocephalus-noun Pathology. an accumulation of serous fluid within the cranium, esp. in infancy, due to obstruction of the movement of cerebrospinal fluid, often causing great enlargement of the head; water on the brain), and I am very glad to be alive, however 78 people in this thread think I should not have had the opportunity to live.
Mark Klingelhoefer
:)
linz
wmw999 2,545
There's a lot of room for grey in the world. There is no one moment that the life in a womb becomes human. Humanity is a definition, and only people care about that kind of thing. If conception is the moment of humanity, why are miscarriages not required to undergo full burial. Why are the 80% (I think that's the number) of pregnancies that are aborted spontaneously not mourned as the little people they are? A significant portion of those aren't even known to be pregnancies.
An arbitrary line is very much a straw man; it allows for crisp definitions, but the real world isn't always that crisp. There's too much variation in nature.
Wendy W.
An arbitrary line is very much a straw man; it allows for crisp definitions, but the real world isn't always that crisp. There's too much variation in nature.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Lindsey 0
What newborn baby can exist outside of the uterus without assistance (Food, water, shelter), and if this is the case, is throwing a newborn in a dumpster considered abortion?
Most of 'em can and do.
Who really knows when "feelings" come into play?
It's a hard question to answer, and one of the reasons that there's such a grey area, imho.
Is a newborn really "Conscious"
Most of the time, yeah. I think so, and that's one of the reasons that near term is too late to abort, imho. If you question that, though, then there's another reason that there's such a grey area.
Most of 'em can and do.
Who really knows when "feelings" come into play?
It's a hard question to answer, and one of the reasons that there's such a grey area, imho.
Is a newborn really "Conscious"
Most of the time, yeah. I think so, and that's one of the reasons that near term is too late to abort, imho. If you question that, though, then there's another reason that there's such a grey area.
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
klingeme 1
QuoteHumanity is a definition, and only people care about that kind of thing. If conception is the moment of humanity, why are miscarriages not required to undergo full burial.
No one is required a full burial, and death is mourned, or celebrated, in different ways.
QuoteWhy are the 80% (I think that's the number) of pregnancies that are aborted spontaneously not mourned as the little people they are?
I know of several skydivers whos families have forgone the "burial process" just to make thier last skydive (ash dive).
I certainly wouldnt expect you to understand such love Christel....and few others either.
You dont know that kind of love, because you are a different person who hasnt experienced a closeness with a Downs Syndrome child.
They are special in ever way, but I know you couldnt understand that closeness between a grandfather and his granddaughter. It would also exist between a grandfather and a grandson.
Christel;;;;;how can you compare a poem about playing hideand seek with a grandfather to a love poem for a woman...get a life. You continue to show you have no insight into so many issues.
can you real***ly be so void of understanding??????
Your nation has a history of treating Downs Syndrome children, and it is well known in the world.
Try to understand...there are people who think differently to your nation's manner of dealing with Downs.
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