10 people

[billvon 2,991]

>organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be
>for the future generations.

Agreed. But keeping the first few generations alive is the most critical; they can pick up organizational skills later.

>First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no
>immunisations)

There's really not all that much a doctor can do with zero tools. Best to let them die and spend the resources on having more kids. Going back with nothing is not going to be a picnic; by age 40 these people will have no teeth, parasites, chronic diseases etc. and a doctor with two sticks and a stone knife won't help much with that.

>technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to
>be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as
>tanning processes

Spinning/weaving - agreed (and included)
Most technology - simply wasted
Tanning - agreed

[Squeak 17]

by Dr to dont actually mean someone who can administer surgery. more so someone who is more akin to a herbalist, someone with good knowledge of holistic remedies and with regard to being full of parasite and loosing all their teeth, not necessarily, there are plenty of tribes (OZ Aboriginals) who live to older ages with these teeth intact and disease to a minimum, BUT that have generations of knowledge behind them.


Also you are not the person I would use to pick the requirements for an expedition like this

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 2,991]

>more so someone who is more akin to a herbalist, someone with good
>knowledge of holistic remedies . . .

I'd agree with that.

>there are plenty of tribes (OZ Aboriginals) who live to older ages with
>these teeth intact and disease to a minimum, BUT that have generations
>of knowledge behind them.

Exactly. They have generations of knowledge concerning the herbs/remedies in their areas. We have two months and no knowledge of what will be around.

[Squeak 17]

Quote

>

Exactly. They have generations of knowledge concerning the herbs/remedies in their areas. We have two months and no knowledge of what will be around.

this is why i would not chose you to pick the team.

We have a LOT more than 2 months knowledge, the 2 months is for SPECIALIST training, I would not pick 10 people who know nothing.

And we do Know what was around to a great degree. it's a back in TIME event not a new different planet event.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[nanook 1]

Basic skills related to Boy scouts stuff. Able to start a fire, build basic shelter, snares, farming.

No ethnic diversity. You don't need it. Time will diversify the masses anyways. This will help with medical maladies that are common on that particular race. there would be less cultural differences the small group will have to worry about.

Diversify the personalities, to a point. No passive meek people. No super type-a's. Definitely no sad types or the shy. No anti-social nerds. All these will pop out over time anyways. All of them are destructive to unit cohesion.

All have to be very athletic, perfect 20/20 vision, least amount of "family history of". . .(fill in the blank).

So. . . 5 men, 5 women. aged 17 to 28. Females preferrably in the younger group. socially adept and participated in High school/college clubs and sports. above average IQ, with a couple of near genius levels but cannot have children with each other.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,991]

>We have a LOT more than 2 months knowledge . . .

From KBordson:

"Remember... you can't take back guns and only 2yr post high school education max . . . "

So no education beyond a two year degree. You do have life experience, but per her rules it has to be informal (a guy working on a farm for example, or whose mother is an acupuncturist.)

>And we do Know what was around to a great degree. it's a back in TIME
>event not a new different planet event.

Compare an ice age to a solar max event and it's going to seem like a different planet. Heck, if you could specify "New England" you might end up on an ice cap, a shoreline or an ocean.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

above average IQ, with a couple of near genius levels but cannot have children with each other.

Why would you not want them to have children together? I understand why you would want them to have children with others.

If only ten people are selected, I think it would be relatively easy to find ten very healthy geniuses. An IQ of 167 (SD = 15; 99.9996 percentile) would offer more than 1000 candidates (of all ages and sexes) from the US alone. An IQ of 160 (SD = 15; 99.9968 percentile) would offer nearly 10,000 candidates from the US alone.

* * *

What would be the best language for the scenario?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Squeak 17]

Quote

>We have a LOT more than 2 months knowledge . . .

From KBordson:

"Remember... you can't take back guns and only 2yr post high school education max . . . "

So no education beyond a two year degree. You do have life experience, but per her rules it has to be informal (a guy working on a farm for example, or whose mother is an acupuncturist.)

>And we do Know what was around to a great degree. it's a back in TIME
>event not a new different planet event.

Compare an ice age to a solar max event and it's going to seem like a different planet. Heck, if you could specify "New England" you might end up on an ice cap, a shoreline or an ocean.

are seriously going to go down that path with a TIME TRAVEL scenario you actually have nothing better to do.
If we have the ability to travel back in time one might suppose we know where we will end up and when

also 2 years post high school education does not actually mean 20 years old.

Life experience counts for A LOT especially on the land

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[wmw999 2,447]

I like the "pregnant before the event" deal (I read Farnham's Freehold), and the 6/4 multiethnic ratio. Even if all of the women have girls, that's probably better because you'll end up with a mass. One thing would be to have proven fathers and mothers, to make sure that reproduction will happen.

What I would really pick for are people who are not happy unless they're messing with stuff. The guy who's a shade-tree mechanic and house-fixer-upper; the woman who does her own plumbing because it's interesting. Because they look at situations and figure them out, and make something happen. Mistakes will happen -- you want people who will learn from them. Pioneer families were able to start out with very minimal resources (yes, they died, too).

Training? Midwifery with someone good and primitive. How to make fire, pioneer traditions (e.g. shelter etc). What plants can safely be eaten until you figure out cultivation. Because it will take awhile to get reliable cultivation. And ethics. Because jealousy will be even more destructive than it is now.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kbordson 8]

Quote

I like the "pregnant before the event" deal.

I was impressed with that too! When I first saw that, I thought - "that's thinking outside the box!"


And.... with a two month prep time, the females could even be impregnated by IVF with donor sperm and donor eggs. Completely different DNA. With that you could potentially select another 10 "people" (or 12 if 6 women)

[billvon 2,991]

>are seriously going to go down that path with a TIME TRAVEL scenario
>you actually have nothing better to do.

Why all the anger? That was the scenario she asked about.

>If we have the ability to travel back in time one might suppose we
>know where we will end up and when.

Ah. If that's the case, you could choose a spot near a hot spring/thermal vent and solve a lot of problems for these guys. Give em a map of the area where the mineral deposits, game, good farming and rivers are; heck, tattoo it on one of them.

>also 2 years post high school education does not actually mean 20
>years old. Life experience counts for A LOT especially on the land

Agreed. Hence the farmer.

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

I like the "pregnant before the event" deal (I read Farnham's Freehold), and the 6/4 multiethnic ratio. Even if all of the women have girls, that's probably better because you'll end up with a mass. One thing would be to have proven fathers and mothers, to make sure that reproduction will happen.

What I would really pick for are people who are not happy unless they're messing with stuff. The guy who's a shade-tree mechanic and house-fixer-upper; the woman who does her own plumbing because it's interesting. Because they look at situations and figure them out, and make something happen. Mistakes will happen -- you want people who will learn from them. Pioneer families were able to start out with very minimal resources (yes, they died, too).

Training? Midwifery with someone good and primitive. How to make fire, pioneer traditions (e.g. shelter etc). What plants can safely be eaten until you figure out cultivation. Because it will take awhile to get reliable cultivation. And ethics. Because jealousy will be even more destructive than it is now.

Wendy W.

Best response of the thread ..and a most excellent book!

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[nanook 1]

Quote

Why would you not want them to have children together?

that came out of flawed thinking of my part. . . A genius couple in a group would stand out from the rest. No matter how social, volunteering and likable they are. Not their fault. . .the others.

But, if everyone was a genius, there would be no social issues. Out of that 10,000, you should be able to find ten people who meet qualifications. You would have to be extra careful picking them out. They are just as flawed as everyone else. They may only be geniuses in one area only and completely incompetent everywhere else(already touched on by banning anti-social nerds)

Quote

What would be the best language for the scenario?

This is hard. The one that has the greatest amount of ability for expression, thought, and creativity. Definitely no "thousand words for" . . .(fill in the blank) types that come from living in a same-climate-throughout area. I don't automatically want to pick english. !Kung! ?

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

If you recall in my original response to this thread I said you needed to screen for religious zealots that would not rely on "god" ensuring that they'd be successful.

Well, I have a perfect example of that in real life for you here.

Check it out; http://politicalblogs.startribune.com/bigquestionblog/?p=1119

Yeah, we don't need to worry about saving the planet, because Jesus already saved us all 2,000 years ago.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kool-Aid 0]

I would travel to the jungles of South America, Indonesia or New Guinea and choose the strongest and most capable of the tribe. Even then, 10 people will not last very long.

Quote

Discussion tonight was very interesting.

Assumption - you had to pick 10 people to travel back in time to "begin again"

You got to pick who would go back and you had 2mos to train them.

Tell me about the demographics (male/female ratio, age grouping, the specialty training)

I posted this here instead of bonfire... cuz I didn't just want the "me and 9 chicks with bobbies" type posts. Try to keep the discussion going. We talked over two hours and though I was EXHAUSTED and falling asleep... it was fascinating to discuss the answers.

Oh Yea!!!!!!!!!!

[quade 4]

This seems like a rather high percentage of people you'd want to weed out.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/18/god.vs.doctors.ap/index.html

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

I'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills.

Basic skills required:
Physical chemistry check
Organic chemistry check
Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) check
Organic farming check
Midwifing I helped deliver one - semi check
First aid check

Specific skills:
Portland cement manufacture check
Copper and bronze smelting check
Spinning/weaving check
Edible plant identification pretty good, semi check
Soil analysis check

Skills not needed:
Medical
Legal
Organizational
Most technological

Thank you for choosing me

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Squeak 17]

Quote

Quote

I'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills.

Basic skills required:
Physical chemistry check
Organic chemistry check
Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) check
Organic farming check
Midwifing I helped deliver one - semi check
First aid check

Specific skills:
Portland cement manufacture check
Copper and bronze smelting check
Spinning/weaving check
Edible plant identification pretty good, semi check
Soil analysis check

Skills not needed:
Medical
Legal
Organizational
Most technological

Thank you for choosing me

your fecundity or lack there of will exclude you old man

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills.

Basic skills required:
Physical chemistry check
Organic chemistry check
Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) check
Organic farming check
Midwifing I helped deliver one - semi check
First aid check

Specific skills:
Portland cement manufacture check
Copper and bronze smelting check
Spinning/weaving check
Edible plant identification pretty good, semi check
Soil analysis check

Skills not needed:
Medical
Legal
Organizational
Most technological

Thank you for choosing me

your fecundity or lack there of will exclude you old man

Nothing to prove here - I have 4 kids. Males can be fertile into their 90s.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Squeak 17]

Quote

Thank you for choosing me

your fecundity or lack there of will exclude you old man

Nothing to prove here - I have 4 kids. Males can be fertile into their 90s.fecundity is not merely being fertile, it's also the ability to RAISE the offspring to reproduction age. you would not make the cut

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

Thank you for choosing me

your fecundity or lack there of will exclude you old man

Nothing to prove here - I have 4 kids. Males can be fertile into their 90s.fecundity is not merely being fertile, it's also the ability to RAISE the offspring to reproduction age. you would not make the cutREAR Amazon said to tell you REAR children. Raise corn

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[happythoughts 0]

Fletcher Christian

Reminds me of FC. The eventual problem is that somebody wants to be in charge of the others.

So, there are examples in the past.

In the present, they would want good food and shelter.

There are present day examples.
Communities living at an agricultural-subsistence living level. What they desire is to maintain their food supply, increase it, and move beyond constant threat.

Simple uses of tools, like water wheels that are walked on to push water and irrigate more land. Simple, effective, and easy to maintain.

Also, they'd want to get beyond the 2nd century medical issues like dying from a broken leg.

So, I'd favor having one mechanical engineer and one agricultural expert. Get beyond the level of "one bad harvest means death".

Everyone should have minimal medical training.

[skiskyrock 0]

ignoring the genetic make up and going with the skills:
basic skills : everyone is from a rural area and grew up camping, hunting and fishing. In their adult years 5 of them took up adventure sports: white water rafting, extreme skiing, rock climbing, while the other five stayed home and sewed, brewed beer, cooked, etc. as far as professions:

1 dental hygenist
1 emt-w
1 amish farmer (lapsed)
1 with an AA degree in sociology, who audited a lot of philosophy courses
1 with an AS degree in Biology
1 crafter ... someone who know how to do a bit of knitting, pottery, glass blowing
1 who is 2 years into a materials engineering degree
1 with an AS degree in botany
1 flint knapper/primitive living skills instructor
1 with an AA degree in History, with an emphasis on Paleo-history

My basic design philosophy for the group was to be able to survive long enough to domesticate some animals and make steel, while retaining the germ theory of disease and a vague knowledge that epicureans had something going philosophy-wise, and the national socialists didn't.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

ignoring the genetic make up and going with the skills:
basic skills : everyone is from a rural area and grew up camping, hunting and fishing. In their adult years 5 of them took up adventure sports: white water rafting, extreme skiing, rock climbing, while the other five stayed home and sewed, brewed beer, cooked, etc. as far as professions:

1 dental hygenist
1 emt-w
1 amish farmer (lapsed)
1 with an AA degree in sociology, who audited a lot of philosophy courses
1 with an AS degree in Biology
1 crafter ... someone who know how to do a bit of knitting, pottery, glass blowing
1 who is 2 years into a materials engineering degree
1 with an AS degree in botany
1 flint knapper/primitive living skills instructor
1 with an AA degree in History, with an emphasis on Paleo-history

My basic design philosophy for the group was to be able to survive long enough to domesticate some animals and make steel, while retaining the germ theory of disease and a vague knowledge that epicureans had something going philosophy-wise, and the national socialists didn't.

Steel making would be far beyond the capabilities of a group of 10 with no sophisticated tools to work with. Billvon was correct - bronze is the way to go (just like humans did it the first time around). Bronze is really quite easy to smelt and fabricate using readily available materials, the ores for arsenical bronze are moderately abundant at the surface (or were 7,000 years ago). Bronze is clearly the way to bootstrap technology if you don't mind a bit of arsenic poisoning for the metalworker. (Ever wondered why the Greco-Roman god Hephaestos/Vulcan has the symptoms of arsenic poisoning?).

Tin bronze (modern bronze) would be much more difficult, since tin ore is not abundant and would be much harder to find. It is speculated that the Trojan War was really about controlling the tin trade.

I'd suggest someone with mineralogy/geology/metallurgy training would be an asset to the group - check

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

Another thing to consider is WHERE the time machine will deposit you. The middle of Antarctica or the Atacama desert will be pretty hopeless.

Preferably somewhere with a benign climate, fertile soil, plenty of wildlife and mineral resources. Northern California, maybe? Near the Black Sea? South Africa?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.