klingeme 1 #101 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote I believe that something with arms (to be ripped off) and legs (also to be ripped off) and removed (with a glorified vacume cleaner) is alive enough to not be killed. What about a shapeless mass of cells? A shapeless mass of cells that is contnually replicating forming things like lungs and a brain and arms, and legs.......I call that a baby in process. In process? So does that mean that if you stop the process it never becomes a baby? And is a newborn truely a person, so if you throw them in a dumpster, and they never develop a personality, or emotions....... That did not answer my question. At all. Is it truely a baby 1 day before it is born, and should abortions be legal then? Still don't want to answer eh? It's simply yes or no. You said a SHAPELESS MASS OF CELLS (NOT a baby 1 day before it's born) is a "baby is process". If you stop that process when it's a "shapeless mass of cells", does it never become a baby? The funny part is that you keep avoiding the obvious answer. The even more funny part is that you contradicted yourself and don't want to admit it. I believe that a group of cells that will become a baby is as much alive as a newborn who will evenutally have emotions and opinions and become an adult is alive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #102 September 3, 2008 Quote Pro-choice does not imply pro-abortion. Anti-abortion does not imply anti-choice. I'll just say I completely disagree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #103 September 3, 2008 Quote I believe that a group of cells that will become a baby is as much alive as a newborn who will evenutally have emotions and opinions and become an adult is alive. That's cool, you're free to believe that and not have an abortion. But understand it's a belief that others don't share with you, and they are as entitled to their beliefs as you are to your's. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #104 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote Pro-choice does not imply pro-abortion. Anti-abortion does not imply anti-choice. I'll just say I completely disagree. Hey, as long as being wrong doesn't bother you, go ahead and stick with that story. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #105 September 3, 2008 I believe.... And what you believe doesn't trump what I believe. Let your beliefs guide your behavior while my beliefs guide mine. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conundrum 1 #106 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote I believe that something with arms (to be ripped off) and legs (also to be ripped off) and removed (with a glorified vacume cleaner) is alive enough to not be killed. What about a shapeless mass of cells? A shapeless mass of cells that is contnually replicating forming things like lungs and a brain and arms, and legs.......I call that a baby in process. In process? So does that mean that if you stop the process it never becomes a baby? And is a newborn truely a person, so if you throw them in a dumpster, and they never develop a personality, or emotions....... That did not answer my question. At all. Is it truely a baby 1 day before it is born, and should abortions be legal then? Still don't want to answer eh? It's simply yes or no. You said a SHAPELESS MASS OF CELLS (NOT a baby 1 day before it's born) is a "baby is process". If you stop that process when it's a "shapeless mass of cells", does it never become a baby? The funny part is that you keep avoiding the obvious answer. The even more funny part is that you contradicted yourself and don't want to admit it. I believe that a group of cells that will become a baby is as much alive as a newborn who will evenutally have emotions and opinions and become an adult is alive. So it's not a baby yet when it's a shapeless mass of cells. Thanks for answering. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #107 September 3, 2008 Quote It behooves those who wish to procur an abortion or who wish to sustain abortion rights to ensure they are NOT terminating the life of a human life. A big problem with that argument is that whether it's a human life or not just isn't the issue for many. Your belief that human life is sacred, even when it's no more than a clump of cells, isn't shared by all. Your religious beliefs (if that's what forms the basis for your opinion here) has no bearing on me and shouldn't be the basis for laws that affect decisions about me and my body. linz there are several problems with your post: 1. my religious beliefs have nothing to do with the posts i've made thus far in this thread 2. your changing the topic by bringing them up. 3. "it's no more than a clump of cells" vs. laws that affect decisions about me and my body... those "clumps of cells" have their own genetic code and, if given the chance to grow, at the designated time, "it" will have a completely seperate and different blood supply from you. That "clump of cells are IN your body, but they are not YOUR body. the fact that it isn't a big issue for many or for you (whether or not the unborn is actually a real human being) demonstrating an extreme calousness. it's amazing that people can actually say, both here in this thread and in so many other places, "i don't know if the unborn is human or not, but I'd still have an abortion if I were pregnant, or "I still support abortion." It's like saying, "i don't know if there's a hunter in those bushes or a deer, but I'm going to shoot anyway," hoping it's just a deer. What if, after all is said and done, it was a hunter? What if the hunter was your son or daughter? Just for a minute, think about the consequences of that... if the unborn is a human being, then abortion stops being a "procedure." It stops being a form of "birth control." It stops being just a hotly debated political term. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #108 September 3, 2008 The clump of cells, whether developing into a human or not, isn't sacred to me. A woman's life and wellbeing trumps it's right to become a person. In the case of a rape, I cannot stretch my beliefs about this far enough to justify, in any way, our government forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term that resulted from the rape. I can accept that some people believe differently. For those people, aborting the fetus would be wrong. But those folks have NO business telling any other woman that she must carry that pregnancy to term. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #109 September 3, 2008 Quote The clump of cells, a developing human being isn't sacred to me. A woman's life and wellbeing trumps it's right to become a person. In the case of a rape, I cannot stretch my beliefs about this far enough to justify, in any way, our government forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term that resulted from the rape. linz fixed it for ya. it's not a potential human being, it's a human being with potential. the whole reason i posted here in this thread was to illustrate the incredible disconnect or illogic that is not even remotely caught or perceived by people when they say that they don't know when human life begins yet they are totally fine w/ having an abortion or promoting abortion or condoning abortion. the cognitive dissonance they should be feeling should keep them up at night. the fact that it doesn't is disturbing. and now that we've reached the point of repeating ourselves, it's time to cease, at least for me anyway. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #110 September 3, 2008 if you believe it to be that way, we can go with that. That part isn't what's important, imho.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #111 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote Pro-choice does not imply pro-abortion. Anti-abortion does not imply anti-choice. I'll just say I completely disagree. Disagree all you'd like; you'll still be wrong. It's basic logic, basic set theory. You're entitled to your own opinion, just not your own facts. You said you favor same sex couples' right to marry. Does that mean you are in a same sex partnership and wish to marry? By your logic, it does.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,028 #112 September 3, 2008 >I'll just say I completely disagree. Then you'd be completely wrong - at least about the first part of the statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #113 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote The clump of cells, a developing human being isn't sacred to me. A woman's life and wellbeing trumps it's right to become a person. In the case of a rape, I cannot stretch my beliefs about this far enough to justify, in any way, our government forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term that resulted from the rape. linz fixed it for ya. it's not a potential human being, it's a human being with potential. the whole reason i posted here in this thread was to illustrate the incredible disconnect or illogic that is not even remotely caught or perceived by people when they say that they don't know when human life begins yet they are totally fine w/ having an abortion or promoting abortion or condoning abortion. the cognitive dissonance they should be feeling should keep them up at night. the fact that it doesn't is disturbing. and now that we've reached the point of repeating ourselves, it's time to cease, at least for me anyway. [/taste]Assuming the cells are human beings at conception, wouldn't regular sacrifices to Jahveh, in penance for the original sin, get us out of contract with that Jesus guy, so he can get on with enjoying his eternity while we get on with our lives without any obligation to him? Catholics worldwide could divvy up the assets of the Roman Catholic Church, stimulating the economy worldwide, promoting economic growth and offering indisputable proof of Jahveh's existence. That would be a good thing, right?[taste]Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #114 September 3, 2008 Quote I'm appalled and sickened by these people. My cousin was raped and it was the most traumatic experience in her life. Now they want to force their morals on her. How easy it is for them to force their will and beliefs on others lives and yet, I would bet these same individuals would go ape shit if you just mentioned gun control. Dont forget..PRO DEATH penalty.. and PRO DEATH called WAR... PRO DEATH for tresspassers on their property.. and probably PRO DEATH for their cheating wife.. and PRO DEATH for their friend.. that was with their wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #115 September 3, 2008 Quote a candidate's abortion stance is so far down on the list of issues that are important that its not a deciding factor for me. Well put.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #116 September 3, 2008 Quote ...you are either pro (for) abortion or anti (against) abortion. That's not a fair statement. I understand this is a very emotional issue for many people.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #117 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote ...you are either pro (for) abortion or anti (against) abortion. That's not a fair statement. I understand this is a very emotional issue for many people. Regardless of whether it's fair or not, it's not accurate.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #118 September 3, 2008 Quote a candidate's abortion stance is so far down on the list of issues that are important that its not a deciding factor for me. A candidate's abortion stance is indicative of their respect for individual liberty (and often freedom of religion). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #119 September 3, 2008 I say yes but then again I'm pro-choice.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #120 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote a candidate's abortion stance is so far down on the list of issues that are important that its not a deciding factor for me. A candidate's abortion stance is indicative of their respect for individual liberty (and often freedom of religion). Blues, Dave Or for the sanctity of life and children. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #121 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote a candidate's abortion stance is so far down on the list of issues that are important that its not a deciding factor for me. A candidate's abortion stance is indicative of their respect for individual liberty (and often freedom of religion). Blues, Dave It also is about living up to the responsibility of ones choices dont you think?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #122 September 3, 2008 Quote Or for the sanctity of life and children. RIIIIIIIIGHT.. and why is it the same people seem to not want to educate them.. or provide medical care for them.....because they need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #123 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote Or for the sanctity of life and children. RIIIIIIIIGHT.. and why is it the same people seem to not want to educate them.. or provide medical care for them.....because they need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I think I already said I am not entirely Republican. I'm for national health care (as long as it is not funding abortions). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #124 September 3, 2008 Quote Quote Quote a candidate's abortion stance is so far down on the list of issues that are important that its not a deciding factor for me. A candidate's abortion stance is indicative of their respect for individual liberty (and often freedom of religion). Blues, Dave It also is about living up to the responsibility of ones choices dont you think? Sometimes, but not in the cases detailed in the title of this thread. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #125 September 3, 2008 Quote The Republican candidate for VP is on record as opposing abortion even for a minor who is the victim of rape. What do you think? Should a young girl be forced to bear the child of a rapist? Being "pro-life" yet still allowing rape victims to have abortions is politically expedient but inconsistent and unprincipled. If abortion at any point after conception is murder, that trumps any inconvienence experienced by the mother carying to term. If it's not murder (I don't shed tears over the animals I eat which are a lot more developed than most human fetuses) after a rape there shouldn't be any problems in other situations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
