shropshire 0 #176 September 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteShe'd still have to carry it - you can't make her do that, it's just plain wrong. not for the baby So are you saying that you WOULD make he carry it? If it was my wife, her life would trump that of the unborn one every time. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #177 September 4, 2008 QuoteMany of my opinions do not fit in a mold, and they never will. Theres a part of me that feels you may have lost a child to an abortion or that you have seen what it emotionally does to the parents when they make that choice and for that I am sorry, even if this is not a subject that has affected your life directly. I do appreciate your ability to stand by your position and I find it honorable that you do value all human life, and I understand that my lack of respect says as much about my character as my posts in Speakers Corner do but at this point in my life I'm just not willing to sit by idle on subjects like this because it is one of those topics that will always get people riled up, me included. Close, but not exactly. I was born with a birth defect that could have very easily resulted in my mother choosing to abort me had she known what she would have to go through in the first year of my life and twice since then (minor brain surgery 4 times in my life), and I am very glad that she chose to not kill me but to give me a chance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #178 May 6, 2009 Bump, for the benefit of FallingOsh.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #179 May 6, 2009 QuoteBump, for the benefit of FallingOsh. Interesting to note that we have 13 of our fellow skydivers.... who believe in absolute reproductive slavery for women. I think ANY woman on here should find out who these abusive assholes are BEFORE they get involved with them in even a casual relationship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #180 May 6, 2009 This is simple. The child in the mother's womb...no matter how it came into being...is either a unique and new human being or not. If it is a unique and new human being, then the answer is no. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #181 May 6, 2009 The "uniqueness" of the mother is not a concern? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #182 May 6, 2009 QuoteThis is simple. The child in the mother's womb...no matter how it came into being...is either a unique and new human being or not. If it is a unique and new human being, then the answer is no. Who among us do you think should make that determination for someone else? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #183 May 6, 2009 >Who among us do you think should make that determination for someone else? He who is without sin, of course! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #184 May 6, 2009 Quote>Who among us do you think should make that determination for someone else? He who is without sin, of course! What i find astounding is how the same people who rant and rail against the government taking control of banks and businesses have absolutely NO problem with that same government taking control of women's bodies. kinda funny...Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshaver123 0 #185 May 6, 2009 Thats so true..... Are the people who voted not to allow abortion serious... Thats just as bad as churches kicking people out and Jehovah Witness's being excommunicated for having abortion after being raped.... Are you saying its her fault she got raped? Must be if you think all women they are raped want to have the guy who raped them baby... thats just sadistic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #186 May 7, 2009 >Are you saying its her fault she got raped? ?? No, I don't think so. I think they believe that abortion is murder no matter what the cause, and that rape is bad but murder is worse. Personally I tend to agree to a point - abortion beyond the point of viability _is_ certainly killing a living human, and is the worst possible option. If a woman was raped, and did not do anything about it until week 20, the best thing to do is to carry the child to term and give it up for adoption if she does not want to raise it. Abortion is simply adding a wrong to a wrong, not making anything right. However, I also think that the best person to decide that is the person who has to carry the child to term - not someone on an Internet forum who has never had to deal with anything like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #187 May 7, 2009 QuoteThe "uniqueness" of the mother is not a concern? It all depends on whether you believe the unborn child is its own unique human being who has just as much right to life. Rape and incest is a cruel and brutal crime against anyone. I understand the mother's dilemma. It's got to be excrutiating. I just don't believe the innocent human being growing inside her should be killed because of it. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #188 May 7, 2009 I believe that the body growing in the woman's uterus is her responsibility until it reaches viability. If she chooses not to carry it until that point, it is her choice and the government should not be involved in that decision. I do not believe a fetus is a person until well into the second trimester. On the other hand, I think that the adoption system in this country needs to be streamlined so that carrying an unwanted baby to term is a more attractive option (I'm not talking here about rape or incest, but general unplanned pregnancies). How about this: your brother (a unique human being) has a kidney disease that will kill him in months. You are the only person on the planet that can donate a kidney and save his life. Should you be given the choice whether or not to donate, or should the government make that choice for you? The risk to you is no different than the risk of carrying a child to term. Of course, once you give the kidney to your brother he will be unable to work for sixteen years and you will have to feed, clothe and house him. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #189 May 7, 2009 QuoteIt all depends on whether you believe the unborn child is its own unique human being ... The uniqueness of the unborn child, for a long time (fertilized egg, blastocyst stage, embryo, arguably even the fetus) is derived almost entirely from the assortment of alleles received from the parents. Is this sufficient to make us "unique human beings"? Surely this collection of alleles only defines some boundaries on the possibilities of what that fertilized egg may eventually become, under the influence of environment. It's obvious (to me anyway) that much of the objection to abortion is religiously based, and is particularly associated with the religions that developed from the Old Testament (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). I suspect that at some fundamental level the issue is that "Man" was made in "God's image", so killing a human is on some level equivalent to killing "God". But is "God" just a random selection of alleles? That kind of thinking has, more in the past than now, been used to justify elevating some "human races" (especially European Caucasian) above others, deeming them "closer to God's image" based on the presence/absence of alleles with the phenotype of light vs dark skin pigmentation. Hopefully no-one here believes that any more. But if "God's image" can't be defined as a collection of alleles, what does it mean? Surely being "like God" means being self-aware, able to love (or hate), aware of our mortality, able to question our place in world, the meaning of our existence? These are the attributes that make us human, not the physical nature of our bodies. The things that make us human are properties that emerge over time, as we develop and grow. They are not properties of a blastocyst, or an embryo. If someone believes that just the potential to eventually become self-aware, to acquire all the other attributes that make us functional, are sufficient to define a fertilized egg as fully human, then surely that someone should also agree that they have a responsibility to ensure provision of all the things that potential human would need to develop all of their potential. That would include food, shelter, health care, and education at the minimum. Strangely, I've found that many people who ardently (almost violently) oppose abortion feel no obligation to provide anything for the child once it is born. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #190 May 8, 2009 Your entire post is fascinating on so many levels. I don't even want to begin to debate it. I do have one question though: In what part of the Old Testament does Christianity exist? I point this out because it makes me question the ignorance of the rest of your post. Quoteassociated with the religions that developed from the Old Testament (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #191 May 8, 2009 To those who vote "no" because of the right to live - what life does an unwanted child have ahead of them? The mother can be 'forced' to carry the baby to term - but she cannot be forced to love her kid... For the child that could mean adoption, not knowing who their parents are, growing up with the knowledge they were an 'accident'.....or a miserable childhood with their mother. Not slamming any belief/opinion, genuinely curious. For the sake of this arguement, let's consider a child that is raised by their loving mother who chose to bear the child not as 'unwanted'."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #192 May 8, 2009 Am I mistaken in believing that Christianity (as laid out in the New Testament) built upon, and developed from the monotheistic religion described in the Old Testament? Are you disputing that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam share the same root in the monotheistic religion of Abraham? As for the rest, I'd be interested in your opinion. I really can't see any credible argument that "made in God's image" has anything to do with physical bodies. No-one would argue that someone who had lost an arm or a leg was less human because they were missing a piece of their physical body, that would be absurd. Surely what makes us human is the mind, our consciousness and as a result our ability to think, feel emotion, wonder? Can a fertilized egg, or a blastocyst, or an embryo question the meaning of it's existence? Certainly an embryo is an incipient human, and so should be treated with respect. I just don't see how it deserves greater respect than the woman it happens to be in. Back to the original topic of this thread, I don't agree that it is an ethical decision to force a victim of rape or incest, against her will and at significant risk of long-term physical or psychological damage, to continue to carry and nurture a potential human against her will. All that being said, when my daughter got pregnant at 16, she decided to have the baby and my wife and I never once questioned her decision. As a result I have a granddaughter I adore. However that child was not the product of violence, and we were able and willing to provide a great deal of emotional and financial support, so my daughter finished high school, and has now graduated from university and is married to a fine fellow who has legally adopted my granddaughter. Not everyone who finds themselves unexpectedly pregnant has such a supportive situation. I don't think I have any right to tell them what they must do, or must not do. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #193 May 8, 2009 >No-one would argue that someone who had lost an arm or a leg was less human >because they were missing a piece of their physical body, that would be absurd. Well, the Bible does consider them unworthy to approach the altar. From Leviticus: "None of your offspring throughout their generations who has a blemish may approach to offer the bread of his God. For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, a man blind or lame, or one who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or a man who has an injured foot or an injured hand, or a hunchback or a dwarf or a man with a defect in his sight or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles." Fortunately we don't take those parts of the Bible very literally any more, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #194 May 8, 2009 QuoteThe "uniqueness" of the mother is not a concern? That's the reason this whole debate makes no sense. If you are pro life you are arguing for the rights of the child and if you are prochoice you are arguing for the rights of the mother. It is really two different topics. If you believe that it is a life.... a living human being with a soul, etc. then nothing gives a person the right to kill it because that is the stance the prolife side takes. It is a human being and it is murder. If you take the stance that it is undeveloped and not really a person yet, etc. then it does not seem like a huge deal and the "life" in this scenerio is the mother and the only one to be concerned about. To say any view is wrong is wrong. This is a really sensitive subject that people have very strong feelings about so anyone saying that a person is sick, or evil, etc. for thinking one way or the other is just stupid. Depending on your viewpoint both sides could be looked at as doing something wrong. Just my $0.02. I do think that abortion should not receive federal funding of any kind and it should be a state issue.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #195 May 8, 2009 QuoteTo those who vote "no" because of the right to live - what life does an unwanted child have ahead of them? The mother can be 'forced' to carry the baby to term - but she cannot be forced to love her kid... For the child that could mean adoption, not knowing who their parents are, growing up with the knowledge they were an 'accident'.....or a miserable childhood with their mother. I have never understood this argument... life is tough no matter what and kids that come from bad homes or are adopted can become great people.... the other side of the coin is that they may not but that happens in loving families who want their kids too.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DARK 0 #196 May 8, 2009 not only should it be legal in the case stated by the op any woman should be allowed have an abortion under strict conditions some of these conditions should take the fathers view into account if not on a par as the womans then just very slightly under them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redlegphi 0 #197 May 11, 2009 Quotenot only should it be legal in the case stated by the op any woman should be allowed have an abortion under strict conditions some of these conditions should take the fathers view into account if not on a par as the womans then just very slightly under them Exactly! Because once a man puts his sperm inside a woman, he owns her! [/sarcasm] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #198 May 11, 2009 How scary is it that 11% of the people that visit this site think 13 year old rape victims need to carry the baby to term? what a country we live in. I am sure they alll are fine Chistian folk too. Wait til it happens to one of their daughters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #199 May 11, 2009 QuoteQuotenot only should it be legal in the case stated by the op any woman should be allowed have an abortion under strict conditions some of these conditions should take the fathers view into account if not on a par as the womans then just very slightly under them Exactly! Because once a man puts his sperm inside a woman, he owns her! [/sarcasm] WTF is up with the sarcasm? I think Dark was talking about pregnancies which are not the result of rape in the second half of their post. That means the father gets a say too - though the will of the woman outweighs the will of the man. Her body, her final decision. But to just disregard the father's feelings is just.. Whatever. "Once a man puts his sperm inside a woman, he shares the responsibility for any resulting pregnancy.""That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #200 May 11, 2009 Quotekids that come from bad homes or are adopted can become great people.... the other side of the coin is that they may not but that happens in loving families who want their kids too. That's not the point, though very very true. Quotelife is tough no matter what This is. Would you willingly send the child into a life that's even tougher? What about the children who don't get adopted? What DO they have ahead opf them (I seriously don't know)? I'm pro-quality of life, not pro-life. Who determines what an 'acceptable quality of life' is, is admittedly an extremely nasty question. I can only hope I won't have to make such a decision - ever. Be it concerning abortion, or a comatose loved one or whatever else you'd like to name."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 8 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
DARK 0 #196 May 8, 2009 not only should it be legal in the case stated by the op any woman should be allowed have an abortion under strict conditions some of these conditions should take the fathers view into account if not on a par as the womans then just very slightly under them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #197 May 11, 2009 Quotenot only should it be legal in the case stated by the op any woman should be allowed have an abortion under strict conditions some of these conditions should take the fathers view into account if not on a par as the womans then just very slightly under them Exactly! Because once a man puts his sperm inside a woman, he owns her! [/sarcasm] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #198 May 11, 2009 How scary is it that 11% of the people that visit this site think 13 year old rape victims need to carry the baby to term? what a country we live in. I am sure they alll are fine Chistian folk too. Wait til it happens to one of their daughters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #199 May 11, 2009 QuoteQuotenot only should it be legal in the case stated by the op any woman should be allowed have an abortion under strict conditions some of these conditions should take the fathers view into account if not on a par as the womans then just very slightly under them Exactly! Because once a man puts his sperm inside a woman, he owns her! [/sarcasm] WTF is up with the sarcasm? I think Dark was talking about pregnancies which are not the result of rape in the second half of their post. That means the father gets a say too - though the will of the woman outweighs the will of the man. Her body, her final decision. But to just disregard the father's feelings is just.. Whatever. "Once a man puts his sperm inside a woman, he shares the responsibility for any resulting pregnancy.""That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #200 May 11, 2009 Quotekids that come from bad homes or are adopted can become great people.... the other side of the coin is that they may not but that happens in loving families who want their kids too. That's not the point, though very very true. Quotelife is tough no matter what This is. Would you willingly send the child into a life that's even tougher? What about the children who don't get adopted? What DO they have ahead opf them (I seriously don't know)? I'm pro-quality of life, not pro-life. Who determines what an 'acceptable quality of life' is, is admittedly an extremely nasty question. I can only hope I won't have to make such a decision - ever. Be it concerning abortion, or a comatose loved one or whatever else you'd like to name."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
