Should abortion be allowed in cases of rape or incest?

[billvon 2,991]

>Once the egg is furtilized it has the DNA of a human.

My appendix has the DNA of a human. If a doctor were to remove it, kill it and discard it, he would not be found guilty of murder, and indeed no sane individual would claim that something is human just because it is alive and contains human DNA.

>If certain things don't happen right now you will not survive. Does
>that make you any less human?

Right now? No.

>People die. When it happens naturally its not homicide because
>knowone actively caused it. Do hospitals fall under mass genocide?

Nope - not even if they unplug someone who is brain dead.

Looks like we agree that in some cases you can end a life without it being murder; that's a start.

>An abortion is forcing death whether its through actively killing or
>through taking away its ability to live . . .

Agreed. But as we also agreed above, not all cases of killing are murder.

[jerryzflies 0]

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That is her (and your) CHOICE. Why should her and your choice be forced on every other rape victim?

Because, if you read my earlier post, the law says that its murder and you are taking way the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness.
Its that simple.

And the rape victims' rights don't count in your world. You assign to yourself the right to tell all rape victims what they cannot do - their wishes count for nothing.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[Ion01 2]

You have missed my point. A tumor cannot become a human. A fertilized egg will unless something doesn't go right whether natural or because someone stepped in and killed it. Thats the difference.

[redlegphi 0]

"Can become" and "is" are two very different states of being.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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The Republican candidate for VP is on record as opposing abortion even for a minor who is the victim of rape.

What do you think? Should a young girl be forced to bear the child of a rapist?

I am in favor of abortion being allowed in all cases, but the wording of the question--which is a common wording in abortion debates--has always bothered me.

It's the or incest caveat in the question that bothers me. I'm unclear as to why someone who generally opposes abortion would make an exception in incest cases. Since the question specifically asks about rape as well, I presume that the question is referring to instances of incest that are NOT also instances of rape--eg incest involving consenting adults.

So the question remains--why would there be an exception for incest involving consenting adults? Is it because of the risk of birth defects? If so do such persons who are generally abortion foes also make an exception for other types of high risk pregnancy?

Like I say--I favor the right to an abortion in all cases but the frequent use of the "or incest" phrase in questions of this type suggests to me that there is something in the thought processes of abortion foes that I do not understand--and that I find rather disquieting.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Baksteen 84]

Where would you draw the line where 'human DNA' is concerned? The DNA of even the common mouse is ~80% comparable to to human DNA. Let alone primate DNA.

Where does an animal stop being an animal?

No, I'm not buying the DNA argument either.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Shotgun 1]

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A tumor cannot become a human. A fertilized egg will unless something doesn't go right whether natural or because someone stepped in and killed it. Thats the difference.

How do you feel about contraception? Do you think it's OK to deny the egg the right to become fertilized? Or do you think that the egg has no rights until it becomes fertilized?

[jshaver123 0]

im gonna put an if statement out there.....

what if a women married planning to have a baby with her husband gets raped a couple hours after her and her husband just had sex.... The women finds out shes pregnant .... If the baby is her husbands im sure she would wanna keep it but if its the guy who raped her... i doubt she would wanna keep it or the husband... i know everyone says adoption... but it shouldnt be the government decision it should be the women chose...
I have had a friend of mine been raped and what she went through due to that is mind boggling... and wouldnt expect anyone who was raped to be in there right mind only 20 weeks out... My friend still goes through alot and that was2 and ahalf years ago...

[jshaver123 0]

>An abortion is forcing death whether its through actively killing or
>through taking away its ability to live .

well when a mother takes a child off life support that is actively or through taking away the childs ability to live....

Abortion is the same as taking someone off life support

Everyone dies... and for the people who believe in god then you should also believe everyone dies for a reason or when they are supposed to die...
GODS plan

If you do not believe in a god then there are no moral reasons to why you cant have an abortion.....

[Shotgun 1]

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Abortion is the same as taking someone off life support

Well, not really. Someone on life support is generally ill. I think that the majority of abortions are performed because the mother does not want to be pregnant, not because the unborn baby is ill (though some are done for that reason).

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If you do not believe in a god then there are no moral reasons to why you cant have an abortion.....

You don't have to believe in a god in order to have moral reasons for not having an abortion.

And regarding the "if" that you asked about in your previous post, I think it should be the woman's choice.

[jshaver123 0]

yes they are generally ill that doesnt make it right to kill them.... so you telling me that if someone has aides u could just off them cuz there ill.... yes they dont want to be pregnant who would wanna be pregnant by a guy who raped them...
so your telling me if you got raped you would be perfectly fine with having the baby or better yet... if u have a daughter who gets raped and pregnant you would do everything in your power to make sure she has the baby... without considering her feelings... come on...

Hmmm how did morals come about.... Religion....

so if there was no religion you wouldnt know what right and wrong was.... Religion is what brought about a morals in the first place saying you shouldnt do this or you shouldnt do that.... or you should live this way... morals were brought about as a way to control people....

Before religion people didnt see killing as immoral they saw it as surviving. Can you tell me a time before Religion that humans had morals....
Just like before religion sex before marriage wasnt looked down on but its a big topic now...

[Shotgun 1]

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yes they are generally ill that doesnt make it right to kill them.... so you telling me that if someone has aides u could just off them cuz there ill....

Making the decision to take someone off of life support is not the same as killing someone because they have AIDS. The person on life support is generally in a position where someone else has to make medical decisions for them, and sometimes that decision is to take them off of life support.

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so your telling me if you got raped you would be perfectly fine with having the baby or better yet... if u have a daughter who gets raped and pregnant you would do everything in your power to make sure she has the baby... without considering her feelings... come on...

??? I have no idea where you're getting that from. I am pro-choice when it comes to abortion, especially in cases of rape. I have no idea what I would personally do if I was pregnant due to rape, and hopefully I will never find out. If it was my daughter, it would be her choice.

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Hmmm how did morals come about.... Religion....

I have always been an atheist, yet I have morals. You don't need religion to have a sense of right and wrong. And what religion teaches you is right or wrong is not necessarily so. (But that's subjective, of course.)

[jcd11235 0]

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Making the decision to take someone off of life support is not the same as killing someone because they have AIDS. The person on life support is generally in a position where someone else has to make medical decisions for them, and sometimes that decision is to take them off of life support.

I think [jshaver123] used the life support analogy because, generally, during the first trimester, the fetus cannot survive outside the mother's womb, making the mother analogous to life support machinery for the fetus.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Shotgun 1]

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I think [jshaver123] used the life support analogy because, generally, during the first trimester, the fetus cannot survive outside the mother's womb, making the mother analogous to life support machinery for the fetus.

Yeah, I understood that. I was just pointing out that the reason for having an abortion is usually different than the reason for taking someone off of life support. So I don't agree with him that the two situations are the same. (Similar, perhaps, but not "the same.")

[jshaver123 0]

i wasnt saying that things at you i was stating them as generalities... and yea i was trying to make that comparison thanks for that added help lol.... the whole morals thing tho... morals only came around when religion did.... for means of controlling people... now days morals can be held by other people not religious either now the government holds morals.... but morals came about do to religion.... so yes it is possible for an atheist to have morals but had never religion never exsisted we wouldnt have morals or i have to accept the possibility that they would have came about later lol.....

I just hate morals lol....

My last killing analogy why is killing animals okay but human not we are mammals which are technically animals just a different species than other animals....

But if you go hunting and have a liscense to hunt deer and u kill a deer is that not killing or if u kill a fly is that not killing... i just think people dont understand why or what reason morals came about.... But i bet every person on this forum or any other forum who says abortion is killing a human being doesnt understand they have killed before and are being hypocrites....

Anyways if my analogy isnt understood ask jcd11235 he helped with my other one lol....

[Baksteen 84]

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morals only came around when religion did.... for means of controlling people...

Define 'religion'.

As I understood it, even the earliest humans /cavemen / homo erecti exibited "religion" of some sorts.. Religion is IMO partially a product of humans trying to explain the unexplainable.
Note that I'm speaking of religion in general and that I am not slamming any modern or ancient faith in particular.

Then again, those who believe in a creation theory don't believe in 'early humans' as science does, so there's no point in flaming me about this post.

Lastly, I agree 100% with 'Shotgun' - I'm not religious yet I have morals.

A lot of what religion "made into" morals are actually plain common sense.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[DARK 0]

to clarify my original post in case redleg still isnt clear

obviously i dont think rapists and paedophiles should have any say

if it was consentual sex then the father has every right to a say, particularly if the woman expects money off him if she keeps the child

my view

pregnancy as a result of an accident or mistake or negligence whatever it dosnt matter.

if the mother wants the child and the father dosnt and this is clear before the point of no return for abortin then it is the mothers choice to keep it and she should not be entitled to any monetary support

if the mother dosnt want the child but the father does then i think everything should be done to help that child be born, im not saying its as simple as he wants it tough on her she has to have it but if there is any way the child will grow up with one of its parents then i think that should be facilitated as much as possible. obviously the father would not be entitled to any money either from the mother in support in this case

if neither want it abortion should be available after been given all the advice re adoption etc

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morals only came around when religion did

eh .....no you are wrong every civilisation has had rules / laws / morals / guides call them what you will regardless of religon. these morals / laws / guides to living your life evolve with every generation so our morals are nothing like the morals of the people who lived here 500 years ago

in general peoples morals are the same regardless of religon it is only the details that religon affects

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1. An innocent person should not be put to death because someone else made a mistake

the fundamental difference is that you believe it is a life immedietely and i dont

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We are supposed to be free and have unalienable rights of LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness. Abortion takes away the right of life whether you believe that life starts later or not you are depriving someone or someone to be of life

it is very very important when you believe life starts. because if you dont believe the bundle of cells is a person then you wont believe that destroying it is any different to killing any other cells in your body

abortion only deprives someone of life if you believe that those cells are a human life, as someone else has said potential to be and actually being are very different

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thus it is murder.

it is absolutely nothing like murder

[Muenkel 0]

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>People say that the real question is when life begins. Well, that
>has already been answered by the current laws.

It has indeed. When a doctor performs an abortion, it is not murder. End of story. You may want to change the law (which is fine) but that's what the law is now.

No, not the end of the story. If you are of the same religious faith as I am (you have stated that on several occasions here), then you know as I do that we answer to a higher power. And that, my friend is the end of the story.

_________________________________________
Chris

[GeorgiaDon 362]

You seem to imply that US law should be dictated by what is acceptable to Catholic theology. Should the sale/use of condoms or other birth control devices also be illegal? Every other religion out there would also likely welcome the use of the legal system to force everybody to follow (if not actually believe in) their religious precepts. I don't think that's what America is about. Everyone is free to follow their own religious convictions, as long as they don't contradict secular law.

Bill said the law of the land is that abortion is not murder. That is in fact correct. You said you answer to a higher power. That is your right. You certainly have every right to try to persuade others to also follow your "higher power". You don't have the right to impose your beliefs on anyone but yourself.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[billvon 2,991]

>No, not the end of the story.

It is legally, which is what his comment was about.

I agree with you that that is not the end of the story morally, and I agree with you that abortion is wrong in nearly every case - and that "it's legal so I'm perfectly justified in doing it" is not a valid answer.