billvon 3,070 #1 September 4, 2008 I have been watching some of the threads lately, and I've noticed people coming up with definitions of arrogance and elitism. "an "elitist" is one who thinks that he or she has the authority or capacity to decide who is superior or inferior. In doing so, they expect others to conform to their personal ideals." "oone can justify an elitist attitude. Humility is respectablel. Arrogance is not." "Arrogance - making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights" And I realized that I am indeed an arrogant elitist. I act those ways in many parts of my life. When I teach on the weekends, I arrogantly claim that I know more about skydiving than my students, some of whom have dozens of jumps. I have decided that I have both the authority and capacity to decide who is a superior or inferior student based purely on my opinions of their skydiving skill. Heck, I even fail some students on occasion, based solely on my arrogant notion that I am a better judge of their performance than they are. They even pay me to do this, putting me in a whole different level of elitism - paid elitisim. I guess I should work on that, and aspire to be more of a pass-almost-everyone, the-student-is-always-right sort of instructor. Surely passing an AFF should be a negotiation, with the opinions and rights of the student respected and given the same weight as the instructor's. Actually, the student's opinion should get _more_ weight, since he is paying us to jump with him. There's no room for arrogant elitism in skydiving instruction. And that's just at the school. At the drop zone, I have claimed to know more than some expert skydivers. For example, Dan BC, who is surely still one of the best skydivers in the world, thinks the 45 degree rule works for separation. I am elitist enough to think that he is wrong about that, and have talked to him about it. Heck, I am so arrogant that I will talk to other jumpers about it if I see them leaving too little time between groups. While I am jumping - same thing. If someone does something I think is dangerous, I will sometimes get in their face about it. Sure, I'll try just talking to them first, but if that doesn't work, I'll tell them what they have to do or else, even if they disagree. And I am elitist enough to think that they are (for example) wrong for landing against traffic, even if they have a great excuse, and even if it is their opinion that such a maneuver poses no risk to anyone. I guess that's another character flaw; a respectably humble skydiver would simply allow them to land whichever way they wanted, so as not to seem to be an arrogant know-it-all. And who am I to say that Dan is wrong, and that the 45 degree rule doesn't work? At work I do similar things. I will arrogantly decide that one engineer's approach is better than another's, and support the design that I believe to be better. I am elitist enough to think that I am entitled to make that decision instead of them, and arrogant enough to back it up with my interpretation of the benefits of the design. Again, I suppose if I were more respectable, I'd let both of them just do whatever they wanted. After all, what do I know? Sure, it would cost the company twice as much to get the same project done, and indeed it might never be completed at all, but at least there would be humility and no hard feelings anywhere. So I guess I have some things to work on. Perhaps everyone else out there could do their part, as well. Ask for that demotion so that you don't continue in your role as some elitist manager or project leader. Keep your mouth shut when you see skydivers doing dangerous things, so you don't start arrogantly deciding who's safe and who's not. Remain humble, and do not pretend to know things that could be passed on to other jumpers. With a little effort we could make this world a better, and much more equal, world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #2 September 4, 2008 But do you have power out of proportion to your size? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #3 September 4, 2008 >But do you have power out of proportion to your size? I'm afraid I do! I am only 5'9". Three weeks ago I had a 6'5" student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 September 4, 2008 Bill . . . you left off another favorite in the internet argument bag of tricks; "condescending."quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #5 September 4, 2008 Quote I am an arrogant elitist Well, if you're willing to accept help, there may be hope...how audacious. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #6 September 4, 2008 Please tell us your thoughts on beer Bill? Are you a beer elitist too? I read the posts here because I am very interested in what is going on. It's not my only soure, I also read from many different local, state and national sources. I have an opinion, I know I am right sometimes and wrong sometimes and that sometimes there is no wrong or right. So many people refuse to give any credibility to any other thought process other than their own. It's really really sad. Your elitism is no different than the elitism of the person you're debating... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #7 September 4, 2008 Wow are you purposely spinning or do you legitimately not understand the concept of elitism?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #8 September 4, 2008 Quote>But do you have power out of proportion to your size? I'm afraid I do! I am only 5'9". Three weeks ago I had a 6'5" student. But do thee? What if thine 6'5" student decided to raise his gargantuan hand and smite thee? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #9 September 4, 2008 QuoteBill . . . you left off another favorite in the internet argument bag of tricks; "condescending." Since I'm the 'latest' one to use that 'trick' I'll ask.... Is that a personal shot at me?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #10 September 4, 2008 >Please tell us your thoughts on beer Bill? Are you a beer elitist too? I'm afraid I am. There are popular beers I just don't like, and I will inflict my opinion of them upon anyone who asks. Lately I have been tending to drink elitist beers like the Lost Abbey line, Stone Brewing, Alesmith and the like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #11 September 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteBill . . . you left off another favorite in the internet argument bag of tricks; "condescending." Since I'm the 'latest' one to use that 'trick' I'll ask.... Is that a personal shot at me? Nope. It runs rampant throughout the internet as a tactic. If I was going to call out individuals on it, I believe we'd be exceeding our bandwidth limit.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #12 September 4, 2008 >or do you legitimately not understand the concept of elitism? If someone flew an opposite pattern and almost collided with you on landing, and your suggestion to that person was met with "I know what I'm doing, newbie" would you take the humble road or the arrogant road? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #13 September 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteBill . . . you left off another favorite in the internet argument bag of tricks; "condescending." Since I'm the 'latest' one to use that 'trick' I'll ask.... Is that a personal shot at me? Nope. It runs rampant throughout the internet as a tactic. If I was going to call out individuals on it, I believe we'd be exceeding our bandwidth limit. Maybe it is condescention that runs rampat throughout the internet? Chicken or the egg mi amigo?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #14 September 4, 2008 QuoteI'm afraid I am. There are popular beers I just don't like, and I will inflict my opinion of them upon anyone who asks. Lately I have been tending to drink elitist beers like the Lost Abbey line, Stone Brewing, Alesmith and the like. Jesus man you got it bad. I typed "to cure an arrogant elitist" in google and didn't get any good responses. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=to+cure+an+arrogant+elitist&aq=f&oq= Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #15 September 4, 2008 Quote >or do you legitimately not understand the concept of elitism? If someone flew an opposite pattern and almost collided with you on landing, and your suggestion to that person was met with "I know what I'm doing, newbie" would you take the humble road or the arrogant road? Dude I would kick his ass but that doesn't make me arrogant....just violent. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #16 September 4, 2008 The biggest complainers about elitism also seem to be the ones who are always going on and on about how the taxes from their hard work are supporting the undeserving poor.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #17 September 4, 2008 >Dude I would kick his ass but that doesn't make me arrogant....just violent. Why? Because you thought you knew better than him what was safe and what wasn't? That's not very humble of you! For shame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #18 September 4, 2008 Quote>Dude I would kick his ass but that doesn't make me arrogant....just violent. Why? Because you thought you knew better than him what was safe and what wasn't? That's not very humble of you! For shame. No because I didn't like your question mostly. Feeling like I'm a better skydiver than someone else is one thing. But to look down upon them because they have a fraction of the jumps that I have is elitism. To scoff at someone because they drive an old beat up Suburban while you drive a new Prius is elitism. To say a community organizer has no responsibilities while a mayor does is elitism. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong about an issue or concept. It's simply an attitude.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #19 September 4, 2008 Quote Lately I have been tending to drink elitist beers like the Lost Abbey line, Stone Brewing, Alesmith and the like. You arrogant bastard! Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #20 September 4, 2008 >But to look down upon them because they have a fraction of the >jumps that I have is elitism. Right - and you are doing it by claiming that your opinion of safe landings is better than theirs, for whatever reason you hold that opinion. I do the same thing. I think my opinion is more valid than a student's just because I have an AFF rating and a little over a thousand AFF jumps. Welcome to the ranks of the arrogant skydiving elite. >It's simply an attitude. One which you, apparently, show as much as anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #21 September 4, 2008 What? I haven't skydived in 3.5 years, you throw a hypothetical question at me, I answer facetiously, and suddenly I'm an arrogant elitist?!? You're reaching brother. And damn it I'm still upset at you for not delivering that Skydiver Blonde like you promised years ago. You probably saved it for yourself and all your elitist friends didn't you? www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #22 September 4, 2008 >What? I haven't skydived in 3.5 years, you throw a hypothetical >question at me, I answer facetiously, and suddenly I'm an arrogant >elitist? Don't fret about it; we all are. All of us have our areas of expertise. If we weren't elitists about the things we did very well, we'd be fools to waste our talents. (And if we weren't arrogant when we needed to be, we'd be cowards.) >And damn it I'm still upset at you for not delivery that Skydiver >Blonde like you promised years ago. Sorry! No more Lang I'm afraid, but I could get you some pretty good Belgians and Wits . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #23 September 4, 2008 Ok fine I'm an elitist! Happy now? www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #24 September 4, 2008 Quote The biggest complainers about elitism also seem to be the ones who are always going on and on about how the taxes from their hard work are supporting the undeserving poor. Not to hijack Bill's obviously arrogant elitist thread, but I must ask if you proofread your statement above. I'm all for my taxes supporting the legitimate poor but the undeserving poor???? When you say the 'undeserving', are you referring to the folks who are capable of working but choose not to. Please do explain. Thanks _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #25 September 4, 2008 Quote Quote Bill . . . you left off another favorite in the internet argument bag of tricks; "condescending." Since I'm the 'latest' one to use that 'trick' I'll ask.... Is that a personal shot at me? Now whos being elitist? When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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