911 attacks? US military might?

[Gawain 0]

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... was an ad hominem argument ("replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.")

VR/Marg

If I hadn't cited exact references to what I was arguing against, I would agree with you. However, I responded directly to what Lucky cites as goals to aim for, from Healthcare, taxes and the US role in the world.

He wants Universal care. I cited a reason against it.
He wants higher taxes for corporations. I cited exact tax brackets and explained that the small business would be hurt (by the way, that's 90% of the US economy).
He wants the US to take its toys and go home. I asked him if that meant not responding to any situation, to which he said, in all simplicity, "yes".

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you want Americans to give up there unmatched ability to provide aid when called upon, or will you advocate a policy that ignores the world when we are called upon to take action, whether violent or benevolent.

Yes, fuck the world until we're taken care of at home. It is Imperialistic to ignore the homeland and focus on foreign disasters in return for foreign favor. I feel that it is a patriotic view to worry more about us than them; what do you think, cross your heart and stand, but care more about other nations?

Hell, if I had plainly responded, "of course that's what you want because you're a liberal"...then we'd be on the same page. Instead, I provided real issues in response. That's not an argument against the person. Have I done that in the past, probably, in this instance. Nope.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[nerdgirl 0]

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... I can glean from your stance that you advocate the suspension of privacy, entrepreneurial spirit, capitalistic rewards for hard work, and your country's role in providing great relief (which comes at the cost of also wielding great power) and leadership to the free world.

... was an ad hominem argument ("replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.")

If I hadn't cited exact references to what I was arguing against, I would agree with you. However, I responded directly to what Lucky cites as goals to aim for, from Healthcare, taxes and the US role in the world.

He wants Universal care. I cited a reason against it.
He wants higher taxes for corporations. I cited exact tax brackets and explained that the small business would be hurt (by the way, that's 90% of the US economy).
He wants the US to take its toys and go home. I asked him if that meant not responding to any situation, to which he said, in all simplicity, "yes".



Instead, I provided real issues in response. That's not an argument against the person.

Yes ... & concur. Through that it was not an argument argument against the person.

It's the ad hominem portion (very top) to which I replied (#142) and quoted (#150) that wasn't. His highly debatable views do not necessarily correlate to the asserted conclusions, just as being pro-liberal economics/capitalism does not necessarily correlate to Enron-style illegal business practices.

Again, it was notable because it was uncharacteristic.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jcd11235 0]

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Are you willing to give up your privacy to do so? Because instituting such a thing will mean that non-medical personnel will need to see your medical records...all of them. Because it will be a bureaucrat, not a doctor, that decides when, where, and how you'll maintain your health care.

That sounds amazingly like our current system with insurance companies and HMO's.

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- Tax large corporations heavily

How much more should we tax them, we're #2 in the world in corporate tax rate. Give me a figure. The highest corporate tax rate for corporations making just $100K is 39%. So, a small business that cracks $100K in taxable income is on the hook for $39K...

Shall we assume you support Obama, since he wants to reduce the tax liability for many small businesses and entrepreneurs, while McCain wants to increase tax liability for many small businesses?

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Do you want Americans to give up there unmatched ability to provide aid when called upon, or will you advocate a policy that ignores the world when we are called upon to take action, whether violent or benevolent.

Please remind us how the world called upon the US to invade and occupy Iraq.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 2,027]

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Are you willing to give up your privacy to do so? Because instituting such a thing will mean that non-medical personnel will need to see your medical records...all of them. Because it will be a bureaucrat, not a doctor, that decides when, where, and how you'll maintain your health care.

That sounds amazingly like our current system with insurance companies and HMO's.

.

Sure sounds like my insurer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Braz933 0]

Lucky...you did not answer my question. What nation would you have the US follow?

As far as I can tell by your posts, you and NerdGrl are nothing more than communists. Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR. I'm sure they would be glad to have you. God knows I would not miss you!

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Lucky...you did not answer my question. What nation would you have the US follow?

As far as I can tell by your posts, you and NerdGrl are nothing more than communists. Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR. I'm sure they would be glad to have you. God knows I would not miss you!

Yeah because the USSR was communism... ...and it still exists...

[christelsabine 1]

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Lucky...you did not answer my question. What nation would you have the US follow?

As far as I can tell by your posts, you and NerdGrl are nothing more than communists. Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR. I'm sure they would be glad to have you. God knows I would not miss you!

Just curious: You surely are not born at the East Cost, are you?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Lucky... 0]

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Lucky...you did not answer my question. What nation would you have the US follow?

As far as I can tell by your posts, you and NerdGrl are nothing more than communists. Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR. I'm sure they would be glad to have you. God knows I would not miss you!

As far as I can tell, you don't understand the difference between Socialism and Communism. Also, as far as I can tell, you and/or I could not hold the proverbial jockstrap of nerdgirl when it comes to intelect and worldliness.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR

I would like to visit Russia, perhaps live there if I liked it - I hear they've come a long way. But in case you haven't read, the USSR is no longer; it's been dissolved around the time of the falling of the Berlin Wall.....perhaps you don't keep up with news, it was kinda obscure.


What nation would I have the US model themselves after? I dunno, I don't think we need to follow 1 nation, but to assimulate to something like Canada would be a good start. A quasi-Capitalist/Socialist system is in order and will probably come, it just takes forever to do the obvious. We see a free market that is controlled by the elite doesn't work, so government control is comming since your corrput corps aren't working.

[mnealtx 0]

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But in case you haven't read, the USSR is no longer; it's been dissolved around the time of the falling of the Berlin Wall.....perhaps you don't keep up with news, it was kinda obscure.

So, you're saying that Communism didn't work, then...cool - maybe now you'll come to your senses on that crap.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nerdgirl 0]

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As far as I can tell by your posts, you and NerdGrl are nothing more than communists. Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR. I'm sure they would be glad to have you. God knows I would not miss you!

Ryan - would you point to anything that supports your assertion?

Atlho' really I'm honestly more curious as to what was the underlying thinking process that prompted you to state that conclusion. What was it? How did you get from my words to your conclusion?

I don't think I know you. ASAIK, we've never met in person nor have we exchanged PMs. I cannot say whether or not or I would "miss you" as I don't know anything more than is in your profile and this single post. What is it about my posts that prompts you to want me to leave?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Amazon 7]

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Lucky...you did not answer my question. What nation would you have the US follow?

As far as I can tell by your posts, you and NerdGrl are nothing more than communists. Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR. I'm sure they would be glad to have you. God knows I would not miss you!

OH great..another fringe right poster who follows the right wing mantra of George Bushie..."If you aint with us( FRINGE RIGHT WHACK JOBS) you is AGIN us"

I guess that whole ..."to Serve and Protect" is a non-sequitur for those like you who do not follow YOUR idea of what the First Amendment means for your fellow Americans.

The scary part is you are a police officer....well placed for the police state we are becoming.

[Braz933 0]

Yes, born in Virginia.

[Lucky... 0]

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But in case you haven't read, the USSR is no longer; it's been dissolved around the time of the falling of the Berlin Wall.....perhaps you don't keep up with news, it was kinda obscure.

So, you're saying that Communism didn't work, then...cool - maybe now you'll come to your senses on that crap.

Show me where I've ever written that Communism works. Yoiu must be in that school that thinks Communism = Socialism. Look at Canada and think that.

[Lucky... 0]

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As far as I can tell by your posts, you and NerdGrl are nothing more than communists. Maybe you would both be happier living in the USSR. I'm sure they would be glad to have you. God knows I would not miss you!

Ryan - would you point to anything that supports your assertion?

Atlho' really I'm honestly more curious as to what was the underlying thinking process that prompted you to state that conclusion. What was it? How did you get from my words to your conclusion?

I don't think I know you. ASAIK, we've never met in person nor have we exchanged PMs. I cannot say whether or not or I would "miss you" as I don't know anything more than is in your profile and this single post. What is it about my posts that prompts you to want me to leave?

VR/Marg

Well, I would miss ya ..... of course you could still rattle their cage from what he thinks is the USSR (he must not have received the memo that the USSR is no more ).

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>The scary part is you are a police officer....


You can't be surprised ......

[Braz933 0]

Lucky,

The failure of communism was displayed in the fall of the USSR, and the fail of communism in Germany. I was in Germany shortly after the Berlin wall was torn down, and I saw first hand the oppression of communism. Communsim and socialism tend to go hand in hand. You can argue the philosophical differences between the two all day, but in the end, they both suck!

Corporations and special interests have far to much influence in the US, that is true, and should be changed. I simply do not believe that socialism is the fix. Our system of government, as originally designed by the founding fathers, is the greatest system that has ever existed in my opinion.

[Lucky... 0]

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Lucky,

The failure of communism was displayed in the fall of the USSR, and the fail of communism in Germany. I was in Germany shortly after the Berlin wall was torn down, and I saw first hand the oppression of communism. Communsim and socialism tend to go hand in hand. You can argue the philosophical differences between the two all day, but in the end, they both suck!

Corporations and special interests have far to much influence in the US, that is true, and should be changed. I simply do not believe that socialism is the fix. Our system of government, as originally designed by the founding fathers, is the greatest system that has ever existed in my opinion.

Why are you guys bouncing around here as if I support Communism? Show me once where I have? Communism sucks, just like gross, elitist-run American Capitalism sucks. Only our wall is just about to fall and it will be ugly, like the USSR's.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Communsim and socialism tend to go hand in hand.

This is where you show us how much you know.

Communism = The gov controls the means of production

Socialism = The people control the means of production

So are you saying Canada is Communist? One of the components of Communism is Utilitarianism, which is where, "The most good for the most people." Utlitarianism opposses individual rights, the concept the US was supposedly founded upon. I think we know that isn't true.

Most contries in Western Europe are Socialist, are you saying they are Communist, such as Socialist Germany?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You can argue the philosophical differences between the two all day, but in the end, they both suck!


Or you can say that Socialism sucks and is just like Communism, but you just can't support it via example.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Corporations and special interests have far to much influence in the US, that is true, and should be changed.


Yes, that is the rub behind Capitalism, the elite control the market, leading to the messes we have seen over the last 2 + decades.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I simply do not believe that socialism is the fix.


And teh fix is more pleading with corporations to be nice and continue to run our government from the boardroom?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Our system of government, as originally designed by the founding fathers, is the greatest system that has ever existed in my opinion.


Yea, esp the part about freedoms, etc...... then go home and fuck your slaves.... the document was shoddy and written by thieves, murderers and rapists..... even if they were the gentlement of their day.

[Braz933 0]

Lucky, the last line in your post shows clearly that you simply hate the US, even from it's very foundation. If you want so badly to live in a socialist society, then move to a country where that is the order of things. How about Canada? You seem to think they have it all together.

The US is not a socialist system, was never intended to be, and I hope and pray it never will be.

[Amazon 7]

What do you call communities that provide services such as fire, police, transportation, education, etc.?

I dont want to pay for your brats to be educated.. pay for it yourself. I live out in the country where a volunteer fire department will come if there is a fire so I should not have to pay taxes for the asshats in town either. and Police.. give me a break.. totally useless if you call them... you may as well just shoot the mutherfuckers and be done with it.

So tell me what do I get for my taxes???

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lucky, the last line in your post shows clearly that you simply hate the US, even from it's very foundation.


And clearly shows that you don't know me but want to make a judgment of me on little knowledge.

I think the US is currently a POS. The world thinks that too, so I'm not exactly alone. I'm supposed to march lock-stepped and ignore the gross class separation, fascist corporate love, misuse of our brave military in Iraq and all the other BS. If not you claim I hate the US.....pure brilliance.

So here is the last line: Yea, esp the part about freedoms, etc...... then go home and fuck your slaves.... the document was shoddy and written by thieves, murderers and rapists..... even if they were the gentlement of their day.

So what part is incorrect? You attack me instead of saying I’m wrong, therefore….. Do you see the fallacy of your ways? You should try to impeach what I wrote, then go from there. Instead you acquiesce (agree) with my assertion and attack me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you want so badly to live in a socialist society, then move to a country where that is the order of things. How about Canada? You seem to think they have it all together.


I’m considering it. Canada is too cold. Not sure where I would go, I have some ideas. I’m, thinking of staying here to piss off the moralists and other RW zealots.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The US is not a socialist system, was never intended to be, and I hope and pray it never will be.


I know of no system that is 100% anything, so the US has some socialism, some communism and mostly capitalism. I would like to see that proportion go more toward socialism and away form capitalism until we reach a nice balance.

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>So tell me what do I get for my taxes???


The Iraq War and Mortgage meltdown..... get popcorn and enjoy the show.

[Braz933 0]

I have no problem with the first amendment. Say what you want. Do I not have a right to disagree, and tell you to pound sand?

I don't know how you figure the US is a police state. Yes, some freedoms have been eroded since 9\11, and that displeases me also. However, the criminals in this country have far more rights than victims. We are far from a police state...very far.

[jcd11235 0]

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Police.. give me a break.. totally useless if you call them... you may as well just shoot the mutherfuckers and be done with it.

Someone else once said something to that effect (before he started playing a cop on TV).

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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I don't know how you figure the US is a police state. … We are far from a police state...very far.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the US imprisons more of its population, both in absolute numbers and per capita, than any other nation on the planet. It's rather difficult to reconcile that fact with the assertion that the US is far from a police state.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Braz933 0]

Lucky, I don't need to know anything more about you. You trash the constitution and hate the US. You should consider yourself "Lucky" to live here! I am aware that some of the founding fathers did terrible things. Indefensible things.

I am proud of my country, even with its imperfections, both past and present. I would not want to live anywhere else.

So I see no point arguing with you any further. We are as far apart on our views as any two people can be.