marks2065 0 #51 September 22, 2008 Quote Quote Bull - just get rid of 'outcome-based education'. Brilliant idea, Mike, as we've come to expect from you. After all, why should we be concerned about whether or not kids actually learn anything at school? --------------------------------------------------- i think the question is, shouldn't we be concerned about the low quality of teaching in the schools? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #52 September 22, 2008 ACT data, 2005: QuoteACT’s data show that students who score a 21 or higher on the ACT Reading Test are very likely to succeed in college-level social science courses. Only 51 percent of ACT-tested 2005 graduates reached or exceeded this score, suggesting that the other half of this fall’s college freshmen may struggle to keep up with the reading demands of many of their first-year college courses. This year’s score results show virtually no improvement in the percentage of students who met or exceeded ACT’s College Readiness Benchmarks in English, math, and science, with math and science continuing to be the biggest problem areas. Just 41 percent of graduates scored a 22 or higher on the ACT Math Test, indicating they have a high probability of succeeding in college algebra, while only 26 percent scored a 24 or higher on the ACT Science Test, indicating they are likely to succeed in college biology. As was the case last year, 68 percent achieved a score of 18 or higher on the ACT English Test, indicating they are well-prepared for a freshman English composition class. Well, at least the English comp is reasonably high... couldn't tell it from all the blog-speak you see bandied about the internet, though. QuoteCurrently, 21% to 23%, or 40 to 44 million, of the 191 million American adults (defined as age 16 or older) are at the lowest literacy benchmark, being either illiterate or functionally illiterate. Individuals are hampered by harsh realities such as poverty, which affects 43% of adults at this literacy level; welfare, where three out of four food stamp recipients in this literacy category exist; and income, where the median income for those at the lowest literacy rate is $240 a week, as opposed to $681 for those at the higher end of the literacy spectrum (Reder, 1998). Yup...working really well, professor. No worries, I'm sure that something goes wrong on the job, the supervisor will tell them not to worry, it was a 'good try' - just like teacher!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #53 September 22, 2008 Fascinating stuff but totally irrelevant to the point you attempted to make. Your response leads me to believe you have no idea what you're writing about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #54 September 22, 2008 QuoteFascinating stuff but totally irrelevant to the point you attempted to make. Your response leads me to believe you have no idea what you're writing about. Wow - you're absolutely right, professor. I mean, what does ACT know about students being ready for college in comparison to YOU, anyway?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #55 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteFascinating stuff but totally irrelevant to the point you attempted to make. Your response leads me to believe you have no idea what you're writing about. Wow - you're absolutely right, professor. I mean, what does ACT know about students being ready for college, anyway? A great deal more than you. However, the issue was "outcomes", but you seem to have quietly dropped that topic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #56 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteFascinating stuff but totally irrelevant to the point you attempted to make. Your response leads me to believe you have no idea what you're writing about. Wow - you're absolutely right, professor. I mean, what does ACT know about students being ready for college, anyway? A great deal more than you. However, the issue was "outcomes", but you seem to have quietly dropped that topic. Sorry, I thought it was apparent that the 'outcome based education' that leaves 50% or less of students ready for college would be apparent to someone as learned as yourself. I'll make sure to drop ACT an email and let them know that their information is obviously wrong.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #57 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFascinating stuff but totally irrelevant to the point you attempted to make. Your response leads me to believe you have no idea what you're writing about. Wow - you're absolutely right, professor. I mean, what does ACT know about students being ready for college, anyway? A great deal more than you. However, the issue was "outcomes", but you seem to have quietly dropped that topic. Sorry, I thought it was apparent that the 'outcome based education' that leaves 50% or less of students ready for college would be apparent to someone as learned as yourself. I'll make sure to drop ACT an email and let them know that their information is obviously wrong. If you want to be laughed at, go ahead. You do NOT know what you're writing about. Rather like when you pontificate on statistics.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #58 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFascinating stuff but totally irrelevant to the point you attempted to make. Your response leads me to believe you have no idea what you're writing about. Wow - you're absolutely right, professor. I mean, what does ACT know about students being ready for college, anyway? A great deal more than you. However, the issue was "outcomes", but you seem to have quietly dropped that topic. Sorry, I thought it was apparent that the 'outcome based education' that leaves 50% or less of students ready for college would be apparent to someone as learned as yourself. I'll make sure to drop ACT an email and let them know that their information is obviously wrong. If you want to be laughed at, go ahead. You do NOT know what you're writing about. Rather like when you pontificate on statistics. ------------------------------------------------------------ maybe everyone needs to drop all the bullshit in the schools and just start to teach. why do schools use round tables? 1/2 the kids have their back to the teacher. why does my wifes kids have 5 hours a week mandatory spanish starting in first grade but only 3 hours of math a week and no art class? why do teachers teach how to pass a test to look good for the government but not how to read and add? why do the teachers blame the parents when a student can not read? Why? because teachers care about a paycheck and not the job. teachers are afraid to fail a student because they have to pay for tutors to catch the kid up and the district doesn't want to pay that. Maybe we need to start fining teachers that fail the kids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #59 September 22, 2008 QuoteIf you want to be laughed at, go ahead. You do NOT know what you're writing about. Rather like when you pontificate on statistics. Being a college professor and all-knowing on everything educational, I'm sure you're familiar with ACT? The information I provided was from THEIR website, so you are saying that ACT doesn't know what they are talking about. There's laughing involved, but it's not at me. Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about, how's the lawyer/congressman crime wave doing in DC these days?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #60 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteIf you want to be laughed at, go ahead. You do NOT know what you're writing about. Rather like when you pontificate on statistics. Being a college professor and all-knowing on everything educational, I'm sure you're familiar with ACT? The information I provided was from THEIR website, so you are saying that ACT doesn't know what they are talking about. There's laughing involved, but it's not at me. Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about, how's the lawyer/congressman crime wave doing in DC these days? You are aware that Bush's No Child Left Behind IS outcomes based, right? You are truly confused, which is not surprising.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #61 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFascinating stuff but totally irrelevant to the point you attempted to make. Your response leads me to believe you have no idea what you're writing about. Wow - you're absolutely right, professor. I mean, what does ACT know about students being ready for college, anyway? A great deal more than you. However, the issue was "outcomes", but you seem to have quietly dropped that topic. Sorry, I thought it was apparent that the 'outcome based education' that leaves 50% or less of students ready for college would be apparent to someone as learned as yourself. I'll make sure to drop ACT an email and let them know that their information is obviously wrong. If you want to be laughed at, go ahead. You do NOT know what you're writing about. Rather like when you pontificate on statistics. ------------------------------------------------------------ maybe everyone needs to drop all the bullshit in the schools and just start to teach. why do schools use round tables? 1/2 the kids have their back to the teacher. why does my wifes kids have 5 hours a week mandatory spanish starting in first grade but only 3 hours of math a week and no art class? why do teachers teach how to pass a test to look good for the government but not how to read and add? why do the teachers blame the parents when a student can not read? Why? because teachers care about a paycheck and not the job. teachers are afraid to fail a student because they have to pay for tutors to catch the kid up and the district doesn't want to pay that. Maybe we need to start fining teachers that fail the kids. What you are describing is, of course, NOT the outcomes based education that mnealtx knows so little about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #62 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you want to be laughed at, go ahead. You do NOT know what you're writing about. Rather like when you pontificate on statistics. Being a college professor and all-knowing on everything educational, I'm sure you're familiar with ACT? The information I provided was from THEIR website, so you are saying that ACT doesn't know what they are talking about. There's laughing involved, but it's not at me. Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about, how's the lawyer/congressman crime wave doing in DC these days? You are aware that Bush's No Child Left Behind IS outcomes based, right? And this has *what* to do with this conversation? QuoteYou are truly confused, which is not surprising. And you're an arrogant elitist - what's your point? Still waiting on your rebuttal of ACTs' numbers.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #63 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you want to be laughed at, go ahead. You do NOT know what you're writing about. Rather like when you pontificate on statistics. Being a college professor and all-knowing on everything educational, I'm sure you're familiar with ACT? The information I provided was from THEIR website, so you are saying that ACT doesn't know what they are talking about. There's laughing involved, but it's not at me. Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about, how's the lawyer/congressman crime wave doing in DC these days? You are aware that Bush's No Child Left Behind IS outcomes based, right? And this has *what* to do with this conversation? QuoteYou are truly confused, which is not surprising. And you're an arrogant elitist - what's your point? Still waiting on your rebuttal of ACTs' numbers. As usual you completely fail to grasp the topic at hand. I'm not disputing any ACT or SAT numbers, so that's a red herring. Still awaiting your proof that outcomes based education has anything to do with those numbers. In fact, based on what you've written in this thread, I don't think you even know what outcomes based education is.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #64 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteLike graduate high school not being able to read at a 6th grade level - brilliant plan, professor!! It was a 'good try', though, I'm sure. Remind us again how cutting the funding for education will improve that? Remind me again where I have advocated cutting funding for education? Here, unless you made a mistake and replied to and quoted the wrong posts.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #65 September 22, 2008 Quote i think the question is, shouldn't we be concerned about the low quality of teaching in the schools? Many of us are concerned and support the changes necessary for improvement, such as higher teacher salaries to make the field competitively attractive to new graduates.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #66 September 22, 2008 QuoteACT data, 2005: bunch of stats irrelevant to mnealtx's claim Well, at least the English comp is reasonably high... couldn't tell it from all the blog-speak you see bandied about the internet, though. Could you please explain how any of that data supports your assertion about high school graduates only reading at a sixth-grade level?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #67 September 22, 2008 Quote why does my wifes kids have 5 hours a week mandatory spanish starting in first grade … Probably because additional languages are much easier for young children to learn than adolescents and adults. Knowing more than one language will serve those kids very well as adults. Quote but only 3 hours of math a week and no art class? I couldn't tell you about the maths. I think we should put much stronger focus on maths and sciences. Quote why do teachers teach how to pass a test to look good for the government but not how to read and add? Because Bush seems to think that standardized test scores are a good metric for school performance. (Not surprisingly, Neil Bush has financial interest in standardized tests.) Personally, I disagree, at least w/r/t the current form of standardized tests. Quote why do the teachers blame the parents when a student can not read? Responsible parents should take an active role in their children's education. Part of that involves reading to kids, and encouraging them to read. Too many parents think their responsibility ends once their kids are in school. Quote Why? because teachers care about a paycheck and not the job. That's probably why the teachers got into the teaching profession in the first place, the excellent pay. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #68 September 22, 2008 Quote Why? because teachers care about a paycheck and not the job. That's probably why the teachers got into the teaching profession in the first place, the excellent pay. the pay sounds pretty good to me $40,000 - $80,000 a year with full benifits and 2 1/2 months off. alot of people would love that kind of pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #69 September 22, 2008 That's probably why the teachers got into the teaching profession in the first place, the excellent pay. the pay sounds pretty good to me $40,000 - $80,000 a year with full benifits and 2 1/2 months off. alot of people would love that kind of pay. Source: OECD (ea. in US-$) Country Starting Salary Final Salary USA 28693 49728 Germany 39853 51210 Finland 22320 32429 England 23297 36864 Korea 25045 68449 Netherlands 28498 43552 France 24016 45501 Spain 30228 43790 Who told you about US$80k/yr? We're talking about school teachers, right? edited for typo dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #70 September 22, 2008 Quote You are truly confused, which is not surprising. Quote What you are describing is, of course, NOT the outcomes based education that mnealtx knows so little about. QuoteIn fact, based on what you've written in this thread, I don't think you even know what outcomes based education is. Why do you immediately jump to cheap shots when faced with an argument? It would be a lot more effective if you presented evidence that outcome based learning is effective. Obviously the ACT scores are a reflection of the education system; i.e. outcome based, no child left behind, whatever you wanna call it. If roughly half aren't ready for college, doesn't that say something profound about effectiveness? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #71 September 22, 2008 Quote That's probably why the teachers got into the teaching profession in the first place, the excellent pay. the pay sounds pretty good to me $40,000 - $80,000 a year with full benifits and 2 1/2 months off. alot of people would love that kind of pay. Source: OECD (ea. in US-$) *) Country Starting Salary Final Salary USA 28693 49728 Germany 39853 51210 Finland 22320 32429 England 23297 36864 Korea 25045 68449 Netherlands 28498 43552 France 24016 45501 Spain 30228 43790 Who told you about US$80k/yr? We're talking about school teachers, right? Illinois Contacts: State Student Leader: Kimberly Gray Illinois Education Association Student Program Student Organizer: Meredith Byers (866) 690-3876 ext. 312 meredith.byers@ieanea.org Career Outlook: Beginning Teacher Salary: $30,939 Average Teacher Salary: $57,819 Job Market: Shortages in across the board, but especially in special education, math and sciences. For current job openings visit http://www.illinoiseducationjobbank.org/pages. Certification Requirements: Illinois State Board of Education (866) 845-8749 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #72 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuote You are truly confused, which is not surprising. Quote What you are describing is, of course, NOT the outcomes based education that mnealtx knows so little about. QuoteIn fact, based on what you've written in this thread, I don't think you even know what outcomes based education is. Why do you immediately jump to cheap shots when faced with an argument? It would be a lot more effective if you presented evidence that outcome based learning is effective. Obviously the ACT scores are a reflection of the education system; i.e. outcome based, no child left behind, whatever you wanna call it. If roughly half aren't ready for college, doesn't that say something profound about effectiveness? Your flawed assumption is that the problem ACT scores are due to outcomes based education. I suspect you're another one who doesn't really know what it is, and what it isn't. PS According to the ACT folks, the number of college ready HS grads continues to GROW. www.act.org/activity/autumn2007/national.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #73 September 22, 2008 So... 1.) The 40-80k$ figure you threw out was a complete load of crap. 2.) What's the duration required to achieve the median teacher salary? Looking around, I see: QuoteMedian base salary figures represent teachers with 15 years of experience. from: here. But go ahead and continue to talk about how cushy teaching positions are, and how teachers are the cause of poor education. 51k$/year after 15 years of employment does not sound good to me at all. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #74 September 22, 2008 Quote I suspect you're another one who doesn't really know what it is, and what it isn't. There you go again. QuotePS According to the ACT folks, the number of college ready HS grads continues to GROW. www.act.org/activity/autumn2007/national.html See, that wasn't so hard. Now to apply your argument, how does that prove outcome based learning works? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #75 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuote I suspect you're another one who doesn't really know what it is, and what it isn't. There you go again. QuotePS According to the ACT folks, the number of college ready HS grads continues to GROW. www.act.org/activity/autumn2007/national.html See, that wasn't so hard. Now to apply your argument, how does that prove outcome based learning works? My argument is than mnealtx hadn't proved his point. And I've proved that. And your replies strongly suggest that YOU don't know what outcomes based education is either.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
