Andy9o8 2 #51 September 16, 2008 Quote Lately, it seems like muslims expect and demand that everyone drop their way of doing things to cater to the muslim way. Yeah, before long the fucking wetbacks will start insisting we all learn Spanish. Oops. Wrong hate thread. Never mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #52 September 16, 2008 QuoteDid you read my previous post? I have no problem with Muslims. I have a problem when employers are required to give special treatment to ANY religion. Really? Didn't sound like you had any problem with christian holidays being accomodated. I don't work on Christmas since it is a Federal Holiday. America is predominately a Christian Country so this is why it is a federal holiday. If Muslim's want "fringe" benefits then they should live in a predominately Muslim country. It is a simple case of "Majority Rule." BTW, majority rule? I thought you guys had a piece of paper that said something about putting limits on that? I think it began with 'C'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 803 #53 September 16, 2008 you take all the fun outta using a stir stick, you know? jeez...how the hell else are we supposed to wind people up in here??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #54 September 16, 2008 Quote>pretty much everyone held that as a standard, expected way to run things. Yep. Akin to slavery and women as property. Fortunately we were smart enough to change those things - even though the majority resisted the change for quite some time. I don't want to go inferring things that you don't intend to convey, so I need to ask you: Should your preceding comment be taken to mean that you think we should be changing to accommodate muslims needing to pray while at work? I don't know much about islam, but isn't it typical in muslim countries that people stop and pray numerous times a day? Do we have to accommodate that, too?Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdlike 0 #55 September 16, 2008 Quote Quote Lately, it seems like muslims expect and demand that everyone drop their way of doing things to cater to the muslim way. Yeah, before long the fucking wetbacks will start insisting we all learn Spanish. Oops. Wrong hate thread. Never mind. But accurate nonetheless. Well done. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdlike 0 #56 September 16, 2008 Quote>Jews and Christians would never get away with this. Really? A Christian that required Sundays and Christmas off would not be accommodated? I think you might be overlooking something about our work week . . . That goes back to what I said about when this country was initially founded, that was pretty much already the established norm, and nobody's applecart was upset by it. It's not like a large majority advocated atheism and a seven-day work week and then a bunch of Christians stormed onto the scene and got their way vis a vis the five-day work week.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdlike 0 #57 September 16, 2008 Quote Quote So they want special treatment to pray? Do they go to work to work or to pray? Let them walk. They can replace them. Plenty of people take a ciggy break several times a day so why shouldn't they have time to pray? Because praying to an invisible man in the sky is stupid and pointless. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdlike 0 #58 September 16, 2008 Quote yeah and stop the smokers going out for a fag break too!! Oh, so we opened the door and now we have to let smokers go out and have gay sex on company time?! Where is this gonna end?! Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #59 September 16, 2008 QuoteQuote>Jews and Christians would never get away with this. Really? A Christian that required Sundays and Christmas off would not be accommodated? I think you might be overlooking something about our work week . . . That goes back to what I said about when this country was initially founded, that was pretty much already the established norm, and nobody's applecart was upset by it. It's not like a large majority advocated atheism and a seven-day work week and then a bunch of Christians stormed onto the scene and got their way vis a vis the five-day work week. Actually, that's pretty close to what did happen. Due largely to the discrepancy in technology, the Christians won. The Lakota lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #60 September 17, 2008 >Should your preceding comment be taken to mean that you think we should >be changing to accommodate muslims needing to pray while at work? Yes, it is a good thing to accommodate people's religious beliefs (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim) where possible. It is best done voluntarily by private companies, so that companies with special needs (i.e. airlines) don't have people who need to take breaks every X hours or who can't work Saturday or something. >I don't know much about islam, but isn't it typical in muslim countries >that people stop and pray numerous times a day? Yep. And just as here, some do that and some don't. >Do we have to accommodate that, too? Where possible, yes. Many companies accommodate smokers who need to stop and smoke several times a day. We should be at least as accommodating to people's religious beliefs as we are with their substance addictions. >That goes back to what I said about when this country was initially founded, that >was pretty much already the established norm . . . You are incorrect. In the 1800's, mail was sorted seven days a week. Most businesses followed the model of the farmers (the main occupation in the US at that time) and worked seven days a week as well. In 1809, a postmaster was sorting mail on a Sunday; this was commonly done so that churchgoers could pick up their mail on their way home. An activist priest took this as an offense and expelled him from the church. This created a minor stink, and to protect all the postal employees who were working seven days a week, the postmaster had Congress pass a law that said that post offices could be open seven days a week. For a few years all was well. Then a group of religious activists got together and started petitions to make Sunday a holy non-work day. They were, of course, greatly in the minority; most farmers HAD to work seven days a week. One petition read "our government is a Christian government, a government formed and established by Christians and therefore, bound by the word of God, not at liberty to contravene His law, nor act irrespectively of the obligations we owe to Him." The first attempt by the activists died a quiet death. The US Postal Service was an economic engine at that point, and shutting it down one day a week meant shutting down stagecoaches, liveries, inns etc used by the postal service delivery teams for one day a week - and that would have meant economic hardship for many and logistical problems for the post office. (In today's terms it would be like shutting down the airlines and the Internet on Sundays.) Congress let the bill to repeal the Postal Act die quietly. In 1828, the General Union for the Promotion of the Christian Sabbath was formed, and started lobbying even more heavily for "no mail on Sunday." They were strongly opposed by most states. (Remember, back then the US was the United STATES of America, a loose confederation of independent states.) Indiana expressed its objection thusly: "There are no doctrines or observances inculcated by the Christian religion which require the arm of civil power either to enforce or sustain them; we consider every connection between church and state at all times dangerous to civil and religious liberty." In 1829, a senator and a priest produced the Senate's Report on the Subject of Mails on the Sabbath, which listed all the reasons that the US was not going to include religious observances in its postal schedule. In 1912, the religious activists tried again, and this time they managed to convince Congress to pass a law outlawing mail delivery on Sunday. They finally squeaked through Congress because at that point there were a few alternatives to the mail (i.e. telegraph) and thus the nation would not be shut down by closing the Post Office on Sunday. Religious activists quickly seized on this, using the Post Office law as a reason to shut down the rest of the US Government on Sunday. "if the Post Office can be closed to worship God, the local town hall damned well better be closed!" They were largely successful in their efforts. >and nobody's applecart was upset by it. It's not like a large majority >advocated atheism and a seven-day work week and then a bunch of >Christians stormed onto the scene and got their way vis a vis the >five-day work week. Actually, that is EXACTLY what happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #61 September 17, 2008 QuoteWell, in a way Christians do get consessions made for their religious events, Christmas is considered "Paid Time off" at most jobs and same with Easter although lately I've seen that one called "Spring Holiday" more then Easter. I used to spend about 7 months a year away from home working Sundays and all holidays. It was a requirement with my employer. There were no consessions made for Christmas as I celebrated it flying over the Gulf of Mexico.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #62 September 17, 2008 QuoteDo you work Sundays and Christmas? Yes, whats your point? What does that have to do with these people wanting special treatment?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #63 September 17, 2008 Quote Quote Do you work Sundays and Christmas? Yes, whats your point? What does that have to do with these people wanting special treatment? ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #64 September 17, 2008 QuotePlenty of people take a ciggy break several times a day so why shouldn't they have time to pray? Because people have smoke breaks at break time. They wanted to change the lunch break to pray to sundown. From the other article I just read the problem the majority of the other workers had was they start the shift at 5. Sundown is around 7:30 and they did not want to take lunch that early into the shift. I have hauled meat out of this plant many time when I used to drive a semi and have taken a few tours of the place. I dont think you could have over 100 people leave the line to go pray and keep the line moving. The entire operation would have to be shut down.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #65 September 17, 2008 Quote I'm sorry, is that supposed to mean anything?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #66 September 17, 2008 Quote Quote I'm sorry, is that supposed to mean anything? Did you actually think before posting that comment about Sundays and Christmas?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #67 September 17, 2008 QuoteI am a bit perplexed as to why the company would not, as a matter of course, allow people to schedule their breaks to coincide with their personal preferences. Because the place is run like an assembly line. Do you think a car plant could still roll a line if people walked off whenever they choose to for a break. It's all or nothing. QuoteA couple of years ago I had a Christian employee who always wanted time to go to mass on Sunday mornings. We had one of those asshats not long ago. He was a new hire, no seniority and was asking for Friday, saturday, sunday off for his religious beliefs. His ass was canned while he was still on probation. It usually takes about 5-8 years with the company before you can get those days off.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #68 September 17, 2008 QuoteDid you actually think before posting that comment about Sundays and Christmas? Yes I did. Bill was somehow trying to connect wanting a special break to pray to getting sunday of christmas off. So what was the point in the eyes of you oh great one? I guess I dont have the brain power to understand so why dont you explain it to me. I don't expect much from you. Just give me a 1 line zinger and be done with it.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #69 September 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteI am a bit perplexed as to why the company would not, as a matter of course, allow people to schedule their breaks to coincide with their personal preferences. Because the place is run like an assembly line. Do you think a car plant could still roll a line if people walked off whenever they choose to for a break. It's all or nothing. . I've been on assembly lines for Ford (in Europe and the US), Minis, Rolls Royces (yes!) and in each case provision was made for scheduled breaks. I don't see the problem, any more than scheduling SUNDAYS and CHRISTMAS as days off for Christians.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #70 September 17, 2008 Quote Rolls Royces (yes!) That would be cool to see. Such a great lookin car. QuoteI don't see the problem, Well obviosly this company did and sent them packing. It's there house and they can run it the way they want to. ] QuoteI don't see the problem, any more than scheduling SUNDAYS and CHRISTMAS as days off for Christians. Man I am in the wrong field of work. I wish I could get those days off.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #71 September 17, 2008 >Bill was somehow trying to connect wanting a special break to pray to >getting sunday of christmas off. So what was the point . . . That you get your special breaks*; it is somewhat hypocritical to whine about others asking for theirs. (* - assuming you are Christian of course.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #72 September 17, 2008 QuoteThat you get your special breaks*; it is somewhat hypocritical to whine about others asking for theirs. What special breaks do I get? I would like to know because I sure as hell dont know what they are. Quote(* - assuming you are Christian of course.) You assume wrong!If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #73 September 17, 2008 >You assume wrong! My mistake then. The religious breaks that the US government gives to christians do not apply to you. (Although you are, of course, free to use them as vacation.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rookie120 0 #74 September 17, 2008 Quote(Although you are, of course, free to use them as vacation.) I wish. I am to far on the bottom of the seniority list to get that day off. It's work as usual for me. Holidays dont mean nothing in my field of work. Unless the holiday falls on my normal day off which for some reason seems to never happen. I havent seen fireworks for 5 years now.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #75 September 17, 2008 Quote you take all the fun outta using a stir stick, you know? jeez...how the hell else are we supposed to wind people up in here??? Sorry mate - my errorBut the extremists don't seem to need any help today. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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birdlike 0 #55 September 16, 2008 Quote Quote Lately, it seems like muslims expect and demand that everyone drop their way of doing things to cater to the muslim way. Yeah, before long the fucking wetbacks will start insisting we all learn Spanish. Oops. Wrong hate thread. Never mind. But accurate nonetheless. Well done. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #56 September 16, 2008 Quote>Jews and Christians would never get away with this. Really? A Christian that required Sundays and Christmas off would not be accommodated? I think you might be overlooking something about our work week . . . That goes back to what I said about when this country was initially founded, that was pretty much already the established norm, and nobody's applecart was upset by it. It's not like a large majority advocated atheism and a seven-day work week and then a bunch of Christians stormed onto the scene and got their way vis a vis the five-day work week.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #57 September 16, 2008 Quote Quote So they want special treatment to pray? Do they go to work to work or to pray? Let them walk. They can replace them. Plenty of people take a ciggy break several times a day so why shouldn't they have time to pray? Because praying to an invisible man in the sky is stupid and pointless. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #58 September 16, 2008 Quote yeah and stop the smokers going out for a fag break too!! Oh, so we opened the door and now we have to let smokers go out and have gay sex on company time?! Where is this gonna end?! Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #59 September 16, 2008 QuoteQuote>Jews and Christians would never get away with this. Really? A Christian that required Sundays and Christmas off would not be accommodated? I think you might be overlooking something about our work week . . . That goes back to what I said about when this country was initially founded, that was pretty much already the established norm, and nobody's applecart was upset by it. It's not like a large majority advocated atheism and a seven-day work week and then a bunch of Christians stormed onto the scene and got their way vis a vis the five-day work week. Actually, that's pretty close to what did happen. Due largely to the discrepancy in technology, the Christians won. The Lakota lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #60 September 17, 2008 >Should your preceding comment be taken to mean that you think we should >be changing to accommodate muslims needing to pray while at work? Yes, it is a good thing to accommodate people's religious beliefs (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim) where possible. It is best done voluntarily by private companies, so that companies with special needs (i.e. airlines) don't have people who need to take breaks every X hours or who can't work Saturday or something. >I don't know much about islam, but isn't it typical in muslim countries >that people stop and pray numerous times a day? Yep. And just as here, some do that and some don't. >Do we have to accommodate that, too? Where possible, yes. Many companies accommodate smokers who need to stop and smoke several times a day. We should be at least as accommodating to people's religious beliefs as we are with their substance addictions. >That goes back to what I said about when this country was initially founded, that >was pretty much already the established norm . . . You are incorrect. In the 1800's, mail was sorted seven days a week. Most businesses followed the model of the farmers (the main occupation in the US at that time) and worked seven days a week as well. In 1809, a postmaster was sorting mail on a Sunday; this was commonly done so that churchgoers could pick up their mail on their way home. An activist priest took this as an offense and expelled him from the church. This created a minor stink, and to protect all the postal employees who were working seven days a week, the postmaster had Congress pass a law that said that post offices could be open seven days a week. For a few years all was well. Then a group of religious activists got together and started petitions to make Sunday a holy non-work day. They were, of course, greatly in the minority; most farmers HAD to work seven days a week. One petition read "our government is a Christian government, a government formed and established by Christians and therefore, bound by the word of God, not at liberty to contravene His law, nor act irrespectively of the obligations we owe to Him." The first attempt by the activists died a quiet death. The US Postal Service was an economic engine at that point, and shutting it down one day a week meant shutting down stagecoaches, liveries, inns etc used by the postal service delivery teams for one day a week - and that would have meant economic hardship for many and logistical problems for the post office. (In today's terms it would be like shutting down the airlines and the Internet on Sundays.) Congress let the bill to repeal the Postal Act die quietly. In 1828, the General Union for the Promotion of the Christian Sabbath was formed, and started lobbying even more heavily for "no mail on Sunday." They were strongly opposed by most states. (Remember, back then the US was the United STATES of America, a loose confederation of independent states.) Indiana expressed its objection thusly: "There are no doctrines or observances inculcated by the Christian religion which require the arm of civil power either to enforce or sustain them; we consider every connection between church and state at all times dangerous to civil and religious liberty." In 1829, a senator and a priest produced the Senate's Report on the Subject of Mails on the Sabbath, which listed all the reasons that the US was not going to include religious observances in its postal schedule. In 1912, the religious activists tried again, and this time they managed to convince Congress to pass a law outlawing mail delivery on Sunday. They finally squeaked through Congress because at that point there were a few alternatives to the mail (i.e. telegraph) and thus the nation would not be shut down by closing the Post Office on Sunday. Religious activists quickly seized on this, using the Post Office law as a reason to shut down the rest of the US Government on Sunday. "if the Post Office can be closed to worship God, the local town hall damned well better be closed!" They were largely successful in their efforts. >and nobody's applecart was upset by it. It's not like a large majority >advocated atheism and a seven-day work week and then a bunch of >Christians stormed onto the scene and got their way vis a vis the >five-day work week. Actually, that is EXACTLY what happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #61 September 17, 2008 QuoteWell, in a way Christians do get consessions made for their religious events, Christmas is considered "Paid Time off" at most jobs and same with Easter although lately I've seen that one called "Spring Holiday" more then Easter. I used to spend about 7 months a year away from home working Sundays and all holidays. It was a requirement with my employer. There were no consessions made for Christmas as I celebrated it flying over the Gulf of Mexico.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #62 September 17, 2008 QuoteDo you work Sundays and Christmas? Yes, whats your point? What does that have to do with these people wanting special treatment?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #63 September 17, 2008 Quote Quote Do you work Sundays and Christmas? Yes, whats your point? What does that have to do with these people wanting special treatment? ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #64 September 17, 2008 QuotePlenty of people take a ciggy break several times a day so why shouldn't they have time to pray? Because people have smoke breaks at break time. They wanted to change the lunch break to pray to sundown. From the other article I just read the problem the majority of the other workers had was they start the shift at 5. Sundown is around 7:30 and they did not want to take lunch that early into the shift. I have hauled meat out of this plant many time when I used to drive a semi and have taken a few tours of the place. I dont think you could have over 100 people leave the line to go pray and keep the line moving. The entire operation would have to be shut down.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #65 September 17, 2008 Quote I'm sorry, is that supposed to mean anything?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #66 September 17, 2008 Quote Quote I'm sorry, is that supposed to mean anything? Did you actually think before posting that comment about Sundays and Christmas?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #67 September 17, 2008 QuoteI am a bit perplexed as to why the company would not, as a matter of course, allow people to schedule their breaks to coincide with their personal preferences. Because the place is run like an assembly line. Do you think a car plant could still roll a line if people walked off whenever they choose to for a break. It's all or nothing. QuoteA couple of years ago I had a Christian employee who always wanted time to go to mass on Sunday mornings. We had one of those asshats not long ago. He was a new hire, no seniority and was asking for Friday, saturday, sunday off for his religious beliefs. His ass was canned while he was still on probation. It usually takes about 5-8 years with the company before you can get those days off.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #68 September 17, 2008 QuoteDid you actually think before posting that comment about Sundays and Christmas? Yes I did. Bill was somehow trying to connect wanting a special break to pray to getting sunday of christmas off. So what was the point in the eyes of you oh great one? I guess I dont have the brain power to understand so why dont you explain it to me. I don't expect much from you. Just give me a 1 line zinger and be done with it.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #69 September 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteI am a bit perplexed as to why the company would not, as a matter of course, allow people to schedule their breaks to coincide with their personal preferences. Because the place is run like an assembly line. Do you think a car plant could still roll a line if people walked off whenever they choose to for a break. It's all or nothing. . I've been on assembly lines for Ford (in Europe and the US), Minis, Rolls Royces (yes!) and in each case provision was made for scheduled breaks. I don't see the problem, any more than scheduling SUNDAYS and CHRISTMAS as days off for Christians.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #70 September 17, 2008 Quote Rolls Royces (yes!) That would be cool to see. Such a great lookin car. QuoteI don't see the problem, Well obviosly this company did and sent them packing. It's there house and they can run it the way they want to. ] QuoteI don't see the problem, any more than scheduling SUNDAYS and CHRISTMAS as days off for Christians. Man I am in the wrong field of work. I wish I could get those days off.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #71 September 17, 2008 >Bill was somehow trying to connect wanting a special break to pray to >getting sunday of christmas off. So what was the point . . . That you get your special breaks*; it is somewhat hypocritical to whine about others asking for theirs. (* - assuming you are Christian of course.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #72 September 17, 2008 QuoteThat you get your special breaks*; it is somewhat hypocritical to whine about others asking for theirs. What special breaks do I get? I would like to know because I sure as hell dont know what they are. Quote(* - assuming you are Christian of course.) You assume wrong!If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #73 September 17, 2008 >You assume wrong! My mistake then. The religious breaks that the US government gives to christians do not apply to you. (Although you are, of course, free to use them as vacation.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #74 September 17, 2008 Quote(Although you are, of course, free to use them as vacation.) I wish. I am to far on the bottom of the seniority list to get that day off. It's work as usual for me. Holidays dont mean nothing in my field of work. Unless the holiday falls on my normal day off which for some reason seems to never happen. I havent seen fireworks for 5 years now.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #75 September 17, 2008 Quote you take all the fun outta using a stir stick, you know? jeez...how the hell else are we supposed to wind people up in here??? Sorry mate - my errorBut the extremists don't seem to need any help today. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
