normiss 798 #51 October 7, 2008 Agreed! And with Obama and his support of the Joyce Foundation, they have certainly tried to fund and support the outright banning of guns. One of the BIG reasons I cannot vote for him! A portion of our current population seems to not want to worry about the principles of freedom though... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #52 October 7, 2008 >A portion of our current population seems to not want to worry about the >principles of freedom though... We call these people "Bush supporters." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #53 October 7, 2008 So you're willing to trade some rights for others then? Just because the current administration stepped on our rights would not stop me from voting for someone willing to support other rights...as opposed to the democratic option. Thanks just the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #54 October 7, 2008 >So you're willing to trade some rights for others then? Nope. We should keep them all. But given a choice, I would prefer to preserve the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments as opposed to the Second. Again, I would prefer to keep them all. But if that's not possible I will vote to retain as many as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #55 October 7, 2008 Thanks for prompting me to check again... we're good with those rights with McCain as well. Our court system truly plays with the Eighth though... I'll stick with my choice then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #56 October 7, 2008 QuoteNope. We should keep them all. But given a choice, I would prefer to preserve the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments as opposed to the Second. Again, I would prefer to keep them all. But if that's not possible I will vote to retain as many as possible. This is the problem right here... you're willing to give up some rights. RIGHTS. You'd PREFER to keep a few in particular IF POSSIBLE. Well, Bill, it is not only possible but they are RIGHTS. We don't have to and should not be willing to give up any of them. Was it our government who gave us rights or were they already there and we allowed the government to enumerate them for their own good?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #57 October 7, 2008 >you're willing to give up some rights. No, I'm not. Re-read my post. I will vote to retain as many of them as I can. >We don't have to and should not be willing to give up any of them. Exactly. Which is why I will be voting for Obama and against the guy who agrees with Bush 90% of the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #58 October 7, 2008 So vote for the guy that votes the party line 97% of the time? If you're basing your vote on the fact that either of them will stray outside party lines, you're mistaken I believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #59 October 7, 2008 >So vote for the guy that votes the party line 97% of the time? Yep. The Democratic party has done a lot less damage to our rights over the past 8 years than the Bush administration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #60 October 7, 2008 I wouldn't vote for the Bush administration again if it were possible either. That won't keep me from voting for McCain though... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #61 October 7, 2008 Quote>you're willing to give up some rights. No, I'm not. Re-read my post. I will vote to retain as many of them as I can. when you write it like that, his take seems accurate. It sounds like you're voting for a package of some rights, when that should never be the choice presented. But I'm closer to you - I think the GOP side represented a greater loss of rights than the Democrat side, by a slightly margin (remembering Reno/Clinton/Feinstein on civil rights not involving guns). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #62 October 7, 2008 QuoteNo, I'm not. Re-read my post. I will vote to retain as many of them as I can. Yes you are. You're willing to give up some rights before others. You said it. Fortunately we're not in that situation right now. QuoteExactly. Which is why I will be voting for Obama and against the guy who agrees with Bush 90% of the time. Huh? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #63 October 7, 2008 QuoteYep. The Democratic party has done a lot less damage to our rights over the past 8 years than the Bush administration. You should definitely avoid voting for the Bush administration then.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #64 October 7, 2008 >You should definitely avoid voting for the Bush administration then. I am. I am not voting for either Bush or his successor. >Yes you are. You're willing to give up some rights before others. I am going to vote to retain as many of my rights as I can. Many conservatives think that the Bill of Rights contains only one amendment - the second. They don't care about torture, or imprisonment without trial, or loss of privacy as long as they get to keep their guns. Personally, I think that's a fool's bargain, and anyone willing to sacrifice their rights to ensure an easy supply of cheap guns deserves what they get. I'm not willing to do that. >What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I will not support a continuation of the policies that have already resulted in the erosion of many of our rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #65 October 7, 2008 The fact that there are people here who are willing to give up any rights at all is truly appaulling. I, Jason Burroughs, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #66 October 7, 2008 Bill I generally enjoy what you comment on and how you do it but the whole 90% with Bush is just to much of a talking point. You are obviously a smart man and know that McCain is NOT Bush! He is far from it and actually got in to it with him many times. I cannot stop you but when you have so many better arguments to state as you have why use that crap? Just a question.. Blues, RobLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #67 October 7, 2008 Then why did the democrats support the legislation that has led us to where we are??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #68 October 7, 2008 >but the whole 90% with Bush is just to much of a talking point. ?? I tend to believe what people do and what they vote for vs. what they say. And based on what McCain has done and how he has voted, he will largely continue Bush's legacy. He is a much smarter guy, and will make better decisions, but he will not plot a substantially different course. >You are obviously a smart man and know that McCain is NOT Bush! I didn't claim he "was Bush." He has, however, supported his policies and agendas, and has only tried to distance himself from Bush since his popularity began to plummet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #69 October 7, 2008 He and Bush did not get along back in 2000 when I wanted McCain to get the nod for the GOP. As for the 90% statement.... look at what he voted to support and you will realize that Obamas support is very similar except on the far left issues. Bush is a "Republican" by name and most of what he puts through will be GOP ideals but I feel on the ones that were wrong..... most of the time McCain went against Bush. I mean McCain was willing to work with Kennedy.... the right just doesn't do that. I understand your stance and I will never change your vote. It is just hard being in the business world and knowing what socialism will do to our economy especially when it is so weak! I am and will be until I die a classic Republican. Fiscally conservative and believeing in a small federal government with power to the states! Just because the GOP has lost their way I am not going to vote the polar opposite of what I believe in. Especially when I feel the candidates idea of change is not change for the better but changing the very fiber of America. Again I respect your position and there are many times that you put forthe some very valid arguments. Blues, RobLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #70 October 7, 2008 QuoteMany conservatives think that the Bill of Rights contains only one amendment - the second. They don't care about torture, or imprisonment without trial, or loss of privacy as long as they get to keep their guns. So sayeth the Bill. I think who you're talking about is an extreme minority. I really do. You are quite adept at creating strawmen though! Bravo! I noticed someone calling you out on the fact that you sound like a parrot for the left talking points. You really do lately. Just thought you should know.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #71 October 7, 2008 > As for the 90% statement.... look at what he voted to support and you >will realize that Obamas support is very similar except on the far left >issues. If you consider 40% to be very similar to 90% I could see that statement making sense. >most of the time McCain went against Bush. I agree he spoke against Bush, but in terms of what he actually voted for, he supported him 90% of the time. Again, I tend to put more stake in what people do. > It is just hard being in the business world and knowing what socialism >will do to our economy especially when it is so weak! I agree. Socialism would be bad. Fortunately neither Obama nor McCain is proposing socialism as a replacement for capitalism. So which one do we go with? We know for sure what Bush's policies have done to both our economy and our rights over the past eight years. I don't like all of Obama's proposals for economic recovery, but I think they are better than the sort of unbridled deregulation that led us to this collapse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pegandmeg 0 #72 October 7, 2008 <<< During natural disasters, riots, and economic collapses the police are under no obligation to protect individuals. You can give up your food, water, and property to anyone stronger or protect yourself with guns. >>> It will never happen to the degree where I need an automatic rifle to protect my home. My .38 will do fine. If I'm wrong, you have my permission to give me an "I told you so" over my rotting corpse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #73 October 7, 2008 Bush did not cause the economic crisis. It actually all started with Carter but he did make it worse and I am willing to concede that. Nationalizing anything including health care, banks, etc. is socialism and yes Obama does support it. As far as percentages go.... sure Obama has a lower number but that is also because he abstained from many of the votes. Most of his current term has been spent on running a campaign....... Again we will not see eye to eye on this but it is always good to have friendly discussion. I love talking politics as long as it stays a discussion. Cheers!! Blues, RobLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #74 October 7, 2008 >Bush did not cause the economic crisis. It actually all started with Carter . . . Neither Bush nor Carter caused it. Bush's policy of deregulation of all things financial was one of the things that led to it. >Nationalizing anything including health care, banks, etc. is socialism and yes >Obama does support it. Ah. OK, in that case, you get to choose between two socialists (per your definition.) Of course, Bush was a socialist as well by that definition; he is on record supporting veteran's hospitals, police and fire departments and government agencies like the Center for Disease Control. To me, socialism of that sort is part of our government, and I am OK with that. I suspect that if you thought about it for a second you would realize you support the socialist aspects of our government as well. (Think highways.) I am not in favor of making it significantly MORE socialistic, and I don't think either candidate will do that. > As far as percentages go.... sure Obama has a lower number but that is also >because he abstained from many of the votes. Nope. That percentage is based only on the votes he participated in (as is McCain's percentage.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #75 October 8, 2008 I did say Bush had a hand in it and that pisses me off! As for the socialism bit..... McCain is not for it like Obama and the way left (Obama, Pelosi, etc.) are in favor of the federal government running anything they can. Once again I am not that happy with either candidate but McCain is the lesser of the two bad reps that we are voting on. I may still vote libertarian!!! Most people in congress vote along the party line which is also something I cannot stand but that is what you get with a bunch of lawyers in the government. We need leaders and business men not another lawyer. Bush has not been all that great but he also gets blamed for a lot that he really didn't do. To say that because McCain voted 90% of the time with Bush does not make him bad just as not voting with Bush does not make Obama good. There are a lot of things Obama vted for that are good and a lot that are bad IMHO and the same goes for McCain. I think Obama has this in the bag unless McCain can pull off a miracle tonight. The best I can hope for is the same as what happened to Carter.... failure followed by someone as great as Reagan.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
