National Debt

[Pegandmeg 0]

I know someone started a similar thread but it's already gotten off on a tangent. I need a specific answer to something I don't know much about.

I do know that a large portion of our budget goes to paying off interest on our debts. Just the interest. We haven't paid off the principal on that interest (plus we're borrowing more money). My question is...there has got to be some entities that have been getting interest after interest year after year and by now has probably gotten back their principal back many times over.

My question is: Is it possible to declare any of these debts paid off in any way? What sort of legal ramifications would there be? Could such ramifications be enforced?

Um...that's three questions, huh? Ok, might as well add a fourth. Is there a website that shows exactly who we owe every dollar to?

[grimmie 186]

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

[Gawain 0]

http://www.federalbudget.com/

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Amazon 7]

Lets put this in black and what ever the hell hue of blue color the site renders in.

From your link for those who are too busy with the usual Kissing Bush ASS rhetoric to go look at any links other than EIB or NEWSMAX.

50-Year Record on Sept. 22. $10 Trillion on Sept. 30, 2008.

The gross national debt compared to GDP (how rich we are) reached its lowest level since 1931 as Reagan took office. It skyrocketed for 12 years through Bush I. Clinton reversed it at a peak of 67%. Bush II crossed that line on Sept. 22 and hit 69% on Sept 30. That's the highest it's been since 1955 (53 years ago).
Bush did three things to skyrocket the debt from $5.7 trillion to $10 trillion:
1. He lowered taxes on the rich (by far the biggest item).
2. He invaded Iraq instead of winning in Afghan-Pakistan (another $600 B).
3. He loosened controls on Wall Street.
As it happens, McCain backed all three policies: (1) He backed Bush's tax cuts for the rich and now wants to give them bigger tax cuts. (2) He was gung-ho for the Iraq war from the start. (3) When Katie Couric asked Sarah Palin to name one time McCain suggested regulating Wall Street, she couldn't—because he never did. He crowed in the Wall Street Journal how he was always against regulation.
Obama opposed the first two and said Wall St. needed regulating.


There do seem to be a whole lot of righties on this site who are wrongies.

[billvon 2,989]

>there has got to be some entities that have been getting interest after
>interest year after year and by now has probably gotten back their
>principal back many times over.

>My question is: Is it possible to declare any of these debts paid off in any
>way? What sort of legal ramifications would there be? Could such
>ramifications be enforced?

I don't get this. I mean, imagine you have bought $10,000 in T-bonds as an investment (which is one place they get that money.) The government calculates your interest at the end of 20 years, and then says "hey! The formula shows you should get $35,000 after 20 years. We're gonna give you $11,000 and keep the rest. You're getting $1,000 in profit so you should be happy." Would you be OK with that?

[mnealtx 0]

Q: Is there a site that shows what the budget does and what/who we owe?

A: IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!!

Great answer!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Q: Is there a site that shows what the budget does and what/who we owe?

A: IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!!

Great answer!!

It's only 1/2 Bush's fault. The other 42 presidents contributed the other 1/2.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

When you give exams do you award points for those who answer the wrong question?

[Pegandmeg 0]

Quote

>there has got to be some entities that have been getting interest after
>interest year after year and by now has probably gotten back their
>principal back many times over.

>My question is: Is it possible to declare any of these debts paid off in any
>way? What sort of legal ramifications would there be? Could such
>ramifications be enforced?

I don't get this. I mean, imagine you have bought $10,000 in T-bonds as an investment (which is one place they get that money.) The government calculates your interest at the end of 20 years, and then says "hey! The formula shows you should get $35,000 after 20 years. We're gonna give you $11,000 and keep the rest. You're getting $1,000 in profit so you should be happy." Would you be OK with that?

That's not what I wrote. Read the post again. As a matter of fact, it was rather presumptuous of you to assume I was advocating or condemning such action. It was a question to sate my curiousity. Go ahead. Read it again. You'll see no opinion one way or another. I'm just curious, and I don't have a lot of time to google through thousands of website that give extraneous information that does not answer my question.

By the way, those two website linked above don't answer either of my questions. I want a website that says who we owe every dollar to. I know some are banks, some are treasury bonds, some are foreign governments. I want to know how much we owe to whom. I also want to know if there are entities (foreign governments, banks, eic) who have lent us money and have gotten back several times the principal.

[billvon 2,989]

>That's not what I wrote. Read the post again.

I did.

But what I think you miss is that for every person who gets a loan, there's another person who is giving them the loan.

One of the ways the government raises money is to sell Treasury bills to people like . . . you. That's one way the debt is financed. So if you consider the US government not paying off their debts because they have "paid enough" then one of the people not paid off will be you.

So be sure you are OK with that if you really think that defaulting on debts is a good idea.

[Pegandmeg 0]

Quote

>That's not what I wrote. Read the post again.

I did.

But what I think you miss is that for every person who gets a loan, there's another person who is giving them the loan.

One of the ways the government raises money is to sell Treasury bills to people like . . . you. That's one way the debt is financed. So if you consider the US government not paying off their debts because they have "paid enough" then one of the people not paid off will be you.

So be sure you are OK with that if you really think that defaulting on debts is a good idea.

Now read my edited version of the post above yours.

I just found a website from 1996 that says 3/4 of the debt is owed by trust funds (social security, retirement and the like). Something I did not know at the original post. Of course, that info is 12 years old.

Don't assume I have an opinion in the original post. It's simply out of curiousity.

[billvon 2,989]

OK, to back up a step then:

It is quite possible that the US can simply write down their debts. They just declare that their debts are paid off, and they stop paying them. (Or "write them down" and pay them off more slowly, or whatever.) The US could do this by fiat; we are the 800 pound gorilla and can pretty much do what we want.

The likely result would be that no one would lend us any additional money, and huge sections of the economy (that assumed it had capital in T-bills and the like) would collapse.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Q: Is there a site that shows what the budget does and what/who we owe?

A: IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!!

Great answer!!

Q: Is there any correlation in the National Debt doubling in the last 7 years and incompetence in running a nation or running a war.


A: All Hail BUSH


Mikes annoyingly all too usual answer!!!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Q: Is there a site that shows what the budget does and what/who we owe?

A: IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!!

Great answer!!

'Zon's annoyingly all too usual answer!!!

Fixed that for ya!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Pegandmeg 0]

Ok, that makes sense. If we the 800 pound gorilla decide to "declare bankruptcy" so to speak, our credit is shot, retribution of a different sort. The next questions then are: How much of our debt is to the American people? In the site I saw dated 1996, it was almost 75%. Is that still the case? Another site I saw said that the debt is going up by more than 3 billion a day. Is that interest alone or are we borrowing more principal day after day?

[kallend 2,026]

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Ok, that makes sense. If we the 800 pound gorilla decide to "declare bankruptcy" so to speak, our credit is shot, retribution of a different sort. The next questions then are: How much of our debt is to the American people? In the site I saw dated 1996, it was almost 75%. Is that still the case? Another site I saw said that the debt is going up by more than 3 billion a day. Is that interest alone or are we borrowing more principal day after day?

Lots of info at:
www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

"A mountain of debt is not a firm foundation on which to build a sound economy" - me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Pegandmeg 0]

That one has a lot of links to a bunch of stuff, but not to what I wanted. I finally found this.

http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

[joedirt 0]

I don't have any source for you but I thought it was at least 40% owned by foreigners. Some countries hold it like gold, as reserves, because it's supposed to be stable. It is the world's reserve currency. It is our major export, and makes up for our trade deficit in one way or another. Hell, even our own federal reserve can "buy" our notes without putting them on the market. We're never gonna be able to pay it back at this point though, we just don't produce enough. If we were using the debt to produce hard assets and tangible, sellable goods we might stand a chance. Obviously we're going to keep buying liabilities with every new "fix" our great leaders come up with. They've made that pretty clear. Your gonna want to go ahead and get rich in the next couple of years in case the world decides they want a new reserve currency, one with a little promise.

[chuteless 1]

China and Japan hold the mortgage on the entire USA.....and it won't be long before they collect it.


Its amazing that Americans cannot see their country heading for total collapse.....and just think of how this would be speeded up to take place in an hour if and when Al Qaeda nukes the two main citys ( NYC and Washington)

George W. Bush and Cheney have set your country up to be brought down.

Watch for it..... Get a copy of the King James Bible, and read Habakkuk 2:3.

[mnealtx 0]

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Watch for it..... Get a copy of the King James Bible, and read Habakkuk 2:3.

What's the updated timeline on that, Bill? I mean, there's only about 3 months left by your original predictions.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

So Mike.. tell me.. What was the debt when the man you love so much came into office and what it is now?

How has our country changed since Jan 20, 2001 for the better?

[Andy9o8 2]

Doesn't the Bible also predict a Second Coming? Reconsider your vote, Mike. (Talk about the ultimate in exit polling)

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

How has our country changed since Jan 20, 2001 for the better?

When Reagan campaigned in 1980, he asked, "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?" and it was regarded as The Word of God. Surely there's no double standard today. And yes, I'm calling you Shirley.

[skydived19006 4]

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So Mike.. tell me.. What was the debt when the man you love so much came into office and what it is now?

How has our country changed since Jan 20, 2001 for the better?

If Bush and "his" congress doubled the debt, what course are we on since January?

I've been honestly considering putting what investment money I have into hard metal (gold). We've seen what can happen when the loan industry falls, what will happen when the United States Government can no longer maintain the Ponzi Scheme we've been operating under?

Seriously, at what point does this house of cards fall? How long can we sustain these levels of deficit spending? What will the fall and the aftermath look like? Anarchy? Gold, and lead backed by gun powder to protect it?

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ