Wealth redistribution

[lawrocket 3]

Why don't I rephrase it:

"There is plenty of money out there was we can take from a small number of people without the collective numbers to fight it and give to a far larger number of people.". What you have described is the inherent injustice that democracies foster - "mob rule."

So what you see is that there are people who aren't insured because they cannot afford it. And then you see others with more that enough money to pay for themselves and someone else. Thus, it is right to take their money and give it to others.

I cannot afford to skydive right now. Yet I would probably be considered "wealthy.". Why is that fair? I take care of my kids and my employees. Why should my kids get the benefit of my toils? That's right - they can't vote!

Re: people dying in the streets. Recall the French heatwave a few years ago. There were thousands who died because the doctors were all gone. Remember that???

Re: people unable to find a hospital. It was a problem. Then EMTALA became law. Now that ERs have to treat patients there are hours-long waits for the free treatment. And fewer ERs because they bleed money. Hospitals HAVE to take them. Your story was valid 25 years ago. Not anymore.

Re: malpractice crisis

Has it occurred to you that doctors are leaving because their wealth is being redistributed through insurance? They cannot make enough money to pay for insurance. note that based on income, they'll probably be taxed to distribute wealth they don't have but do have based on income.

Personally, I think tort reform would be a good thing for society. And we'll get it through socialized healthcare. Then a person injured by a doctor will be without real recourse.

Of course, you provide insight to your thoughts. The rich should be beheaded. And form a government like France.

By the way, do a bit of research into French history. See how often government has changed. Does "Napoleon" ring a bell? France has not been the model of stability.

Re: civilized countries. Was any country civilized before national healthcare? And what were your honest thoughts on socialized healthcare before you broke your neck? The same?

Were you underinsured to deal with the injury you suffered? Should I, who is not skydiving because I cannot afford it with my other responsibilities, have to pay for your injury when you were doing somwthing I cannot afford?

Where is the fairness in that? You knew the risks of your activity. The risks caught up to you. Why should I INVOLUNTARILY pay to subsidize your choice to participate in a risky (and expensive) activity?

How is that right?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

Since the late 1990s? I thought Clinton stopped that "rich get richer" stuff.


Please edit your post to warn Lucky not to read that.

p.s. It's interesting. Before I was 30 I made more than $20k in a year edactly once. And I'm not getting poorer. Just no less broke.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[marks2065 0]

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Here's a nice article on the wealth redistribution that's been going on for the past 30 years.

so it is the fault of the hard working people that the lazy, unmotivated, can't control their spending people can get what they don't deserve? i wasn't always with extra cash or insurance, i worked 2 jobs up to 80 hours a week to get were i am at. make those that are in the low income brackets do the same, earn it!

[georgerussia 0]

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I think people have a right to what they could acquire in nature.
Before civilization, we could all make clubs, build lean-tos, kill deer, gather berries, dress in furs, and have the basics consisting of food, shelter, and clothing.

Well, what you describe is not really different from having a full-time job. Those deers do not just hand around waiting to be slaughtered and cooked. The berries needs to be found, and they won't be at the same place tomorrow as they were today. The fur needs to be made... This is not welfare, the person is basically self-employed and works harder than someone spending eight hours working as McDonalds cashier.

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Since we don't want people homesteading Central Park and eating the bunny rabbits we're better off providing an alternative. I'd say that dormitories, a healthy diet without junk food, and appropriate clothes for the local climate would suffice.

And here we already have a problem. Healthy food generally costs more than junk food, and we already have working families who have to eat junk food because they cannot afford healthy food from Whole Foods. Why should we provide better food to those who do not want to work?

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I'd throw in health care from the government since in a natural state you're free to find whatever herbs cure your ailments and we don't want people picking through our gardens.

Then you'll need to throw in a free cable TV because in a natural state you could see nature, sports, and basically everything for free. You'll need to throw a free car (and free gas and tolls and maybe even plane tickets) because in a natural state you could ride a horse everywhere you want. You'll need to throw in free rent because we don't want people setting up tents in our gardens. And then you'll need to provide them with free alcohol and weed because we do not want people who want it to pick it up through our homes.

Basically what you described is not an equivalent. It's more like ancient times welfare - where other people need to take care (provide) for a person which does not want to work. Nor even in ancient times a person could really go anywhere and pick anything they want without risk of being killed or seriously hurt. And of course being able to pick up various public herbs is not even close equivalent of free healthcare.

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Society should have laws which mean our spending on criminals and people who choose not to work are minimized, which means not working has to be sufficiently more attractive than crime which results in shelter and three meals a day (plus extreme overhead) at government expense.

It could be also done in another way, like mandatory work in jail.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Is that a guess on your part? Lots of employed professionals making that sort of money - in sales, finance, law, medicine, pro sports. Much of it is in bonus pay.

Everyone I know in every category you mentioned (except sales) who is making over 200K a year is on 1099. Including bonuses. Some of them do have an "employer" though.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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In that case they're probably cheating on their taxes anyway. According to the IRS the self employed are by far the most likely to underreport income and claim personal expenses as business expenses

(opening another can of worms) which is not surprise, as this is the only category of wage earners which has _ability_ to underreport income and claim personal expenses as business expenses. W-2 workers cannot underreport their W-2 income (but they can and do underreport non-reported expenses like tips), and generally cannot claim personal expenses as business expenses.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Royd 0]

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Kids in suburban Illinois high schools have twice as much spent on their education as kids in inner city Chicago, and that's equal opportunity?

Apparently Barack wasn't doing a proper job as a community organizer... They shoulda fired his ass.

[TankBuster 0]

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You still can't accept the FACT that no WMDs were found, Powell's claims at the UN all turned out to be falsehoods, there were no centifuge tubes, no RPVs, no bioweapons labs, and the supposed link with the 9/11 terrorist Atta turned out to be a MYTH.

And the Bush administration's lies are still costing us between $10 Billion to $12 Billion/month.

Oh I can accept most of that. I don't think Bush lied, but that's your mantra and I won't attempt to take it from you. I believe the decisions were made in good faith. Made by Bush AND the majority of Congress.

It takes people with guts to make tough decisions. Any pussy playing armchair quarterback can sit back and question a decision after the fact.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[TheAnvil 0]

1. Wealth is earned and not distributed (unless its confiscated by the State via taxes and given to others via redistribution schemes; much like Obama's 'tax refund' to people who do not have tax iiability)

2. There is no such thing as a zero-sum economic game.

3. The rich will usually get richer and the poor poorer in any time period because its their habits that got them rich and keep them poor. Among other factors.

Wealth envy is the despicable tool employed by the left against small minded and ignorant people. Thanks to the NEA, it's quite effective.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[FallingOsh 0]

Here's a pretty good breakdown on Obama's healthcare proposal, I think. It's a little lengthy but makes good points.

Healthcare Plan

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Stay positive and love your life.

[kallend 2,027]

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You still can't accept the FACT that no WMDs were found, Powell's claims at the UN all turned out to be falsehoods, there were no centifuge tubes, no RPVs, no bioweapons labs, and the supposed link with the 9/11 terrorist Atta turned out to be a MYTH.

And the Bush administration's lies are still costing us between $10 Billion to $12 Billion/month.

Oh I can accept most of that. I don't think Bush lied, but that's your mantra and I won't attempt to take it from you. I believe the decisions were made in good faith. Made by Bush AND the majority of Congress.

It takes people with guts to make tough decisions. Any pussy playing armchair quarterback can sit back and question a decision after the fact.

Some of us questioned it BEFORE the fact. Proof available on request.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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1. Wealth is earned and not distributed (unless its confiscated by the State via taxes and given to others via redistribution schemes; much like Obama's 'tax refund' to people who do not have tax iiability)

Wealth is created by some and manipulated by others. In our society the manipulators seem to end up with lots of it even while screwing the creators (some investment bank CEOs come to mind). I dispute that manipulating wealth and skimming some off the top represents earning anything.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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In that case they're probably cheating on their taxes anyway. According to the IRS the self employed are by far the most likely to underreport income and claim personal expenses as business expenses

(opening another can of worms) which is not surprise, as this is the only category of wage earners which has _ability_ to underreport income and claim personal expenses as business expenses. W-2 workers cannot underreport their W-2 income (but they can and do underreport non-reported expenses like tips), and generally cannot claim personal expenses as business expenses.

Fact remains that the darlings of the Republican Party are by far the biggest tax cheats in the nation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tkhayes 348]

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So what you see is that there are people who aren't insured because they cannot afford it. And then you see others with more that enough money to pay for themselves and someone else. Thus, it is right to take their money and give it to others.

you do it every day with taxes that pay for roads and schools. Rich people generally pay more and poor people generally pay less. Add healthcare to the mix. That is all I am saying.

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Re: people dying in the streets. Recall the French heatwave a few years ago. There were thousands who died because the doctors were all gone. Remember that???

they died from the heat. Not the lack of doctors.

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Personally, I think tort reform would be a good thing for society. And we'll get it through socialized healthcare. Then a person injured by a doctor will be without real recourse.

tort reform does not mean tort elimination.

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Of course, you provide insight to your thoughts. The rich should be beheaded. And form a government like France.

I did not say that, what I said was the USA is heading in that direction. I even said we were smart enough to head that off before it happens.

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And what were your honest thoughts on socialized healthcare before you broke your neck? The same?

socialized or not, my neck repair would have been the same here as in Canada. And I was under insured apparently, since I was left with thousands that I had to pay and a trashed credit rating. files that were stacked high trying to decipher bills and claims, and trying to sift through the bullshit insurance stuff. I have already explained the ordeal several times in other healthcare threads right here, so I will not bother going through it again.

Yes I had insurance, and medically, it worked for me. financially, it did not in the end. Took me years to recover the damage done.

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Why should I INVOLUNTARILY pay to subsidize your choice to participate in a risky (and expensive) activity?

Why should I INVOLUNTARILY pay to subsidize my governments choice to participate in a risky (and expensive) activity? Like invading Iraq for example.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Wealth education envy is the despicable tool employed by the left right against small minded and ignorant people. Thanks to the NEA FOXNews, it's quite effective.

Fixed it for you.

[georgerussia 0]

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Fact remains that the darlings of the Republican Party are by far the biggest tax cheats in the nation.

Which is obvious, as the darlings who live on welfare and have no income cannot cheat on taxes even if they wanted.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[lawrocket 3]

So we actually agree!!! You shouldn't have your money confiscated to pay for that which you disagree. You should be allowed to keep your money to pay your bills and do what you want.

I am NOT of the notion that if two wrongs don't make a right, try three, four, or a hundred million. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul is still stealing.

I don't call it right even if I agree with the political goal. I believe that the ends to not justify all means.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TheAnvil 0]

Nope! You lined out things to avoid facing reality. Run from reality as long as you like...it's not going anywhere.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[mnealtx 0]

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What % of your taxes go to the people that "annoy" you?

What percent of the taxes go to people that ACTUALLY NEED it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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>You somehow forgot to add extra $12,648 for Social Security . . .

An interesting example. Social security is a regressive tax; the more you make, the less you pay as a percentage of your income. So it rapidly becomes a non-issue for someone making $500K. (i.e. it's around 2%.)

No, it's a flat tax. It only SEEMS regressive because there is a cap.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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we fundamentally disagree. I never said Cheap was the answer. The thread is WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION.

there is plenty of wealth in the country to distribute to get QUALITY health care for everyone.

yes availability may suffer some, but no one in all those 'socialized' countries is dying in the streets waiting for health care. Urgent care is always provided.

No, just in the hospitals waiting on MRI's, surgical dates, etc.

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But in the USA, people DO die in the streets trying to find a hospital that will take them. Florida is suffering under the crisis of malpractice insurance. Doctors are leaving in droves. OB's cannot even afford to operate (different issue, but still part of the bigger picture)

You're claiming that emergent care isn't provided by hospitals in the US?? You're going to have to provide a cite for that one.

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Does not matter what anyone says. universal health care is a coming reality. it is an eventuality, maybe 10 years, maybe 20, but it is going to happen. Why? For the same reason that the French Revolution happened. The very large majority of extreme poor are tired of 'being taken advantage of' by the very small percentage of extreme wealth.

Let's see... free housing, food stamps and a stipend, all provided to them by the state. PLEASE tell me how these poor, benighted people at being 'taken advantage of'.

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They will rise up and behead them all. People like to make fun of the French, even me. But ever since the French Revolution, the French have done a great job of taking care of the French.

American can realize and deal with that ahead of the 'revolution' or deal with the consequences of the 'revolution'. Since we are smarter than that, I think we will deal with it.

Um, yeah... seen the problems THEY'RE having, lately?

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Universal healthcare is coming because it is what civilized socialist nations do. Oh that's right, America is not that civilized socialist afterall...... What was I thinking.....

Fixed that for you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

snipe all you want - you can also provide the stats please that say people are dying in the hospitals waiting and waiting in these countries.
Plenty of articles here about deaths due to lack of health insurance, not just ER visits. http://www.google.com/search?q=deaths+due+to+lack+of+health+care&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Is that why all those countries are on the top of the WHO lists? Because they provide lousy healthcare and higher costs that we do?

Well actually the opposite is true

The top countries have 'socialized' healthcare. Not 'socialized' governments. Many of them provide it at a LOWER COST per capita cost than is being paid here in the USA

Therefore some have BETTER healthcare at a LOWER cost. Sounds pretty capitalistic to me.

The people that are being taken advantage of and that are fed up are a wide stance of the population, not just those on food stamps. Half my staff right now lives below the poverty line. That's because business is slow. Business is slow for a lot of reasons, none of which are their fault. But they do not qualify for food stamps. But they also cannot just go get another job for the same economic reasons.

But I digress. And none of them have health insurance because they cannot afford it

I will take France's problems over the USA's problems (right now in this time) perhaps you could enlighten us on why their 'problems' are an indication of failure within this thread about health care......?

They are #1 on the WHO chart for providing health care to their citizens. So obviously, even to some right wing extremist out there, they must be doing something right. Not everything, but definitely that.

Universal healthcare is coming, mark my words. In this country, in my lifetime. It will happen.

[mnealtx 0]

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Therefore some have BETTER healthcare at a LOWER cost. Sounds pretty capitalistic to me.

Really? Like Germany, with $8/gallon gas, 17-20% VAT, income taxes ranging up to 40% AND a 20% Social Security tax?

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The people that are being taken advantage of and that are fed up are a wide stance of the population, not just those on food stamps. Half my staff right now lives below the poverty line. That's because business is slow. Business is slow for a lot of reasons, none of which are their fault. But they do not qualify for food stamps. But they also cannot just go get another job for the same economic reasons.

So you support a party that will raise your cost of doing business, forcing you to raise your prices, lay off personnel or go out of business entirely? Brilliant.

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But I digress. And none of them have health insurance because they cannot afford it

Um, ok - whatever you say, TK. Funny how I was able to find insurance for my whole family for less than $200/month with reasonable copays and deductibles.

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I will take France's problems over the USA's problems (right now in this time) perhaps you could enlighten us on why their 'problems' are an indication of failure within this thread about health care......?

You're the one that held France up as some sort of shining beacon for use to aspire to in regards to their socialized health care, not I.

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Universal healthcare is coming, mark my words. In this country, in my lifetime. It will happen.

Just what we need - the same people that fucked up the budget, fucked up the housing market, etc. etc. etc. in charge of healthcare - what a BRILLIANT idea!!!

I guess leopards really DON'T change their spots.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,027]

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>You somehow forgot to add extra $12,648 for Social Security . . .

An interesting example. Social security is a regressive tax; the more you make, the less you pay as a percentage of your income. So it rapidly becomes a non-issue for someone making $500K. (i.e. it's around 2%.)

No, it's a flat tax. It only SEEMS regressive because there is a cap.

It IS regressive because there's a cap.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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>You somehow forgot to add extra $12,648 for Social Security . . .

An interesting example. Social security is a regressive tax; the more you make, the less you pay as a percentage of your income. So it rapidly becomes a non-issue for someone making $500K. (i.e. it's around 2%.)

No, it's a flat tax. It only SEEMS regressive because there is a cap.

It IS regressive because there's a cap.

Only once you get PAST the cap.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706