nerdgirl 0 #176 October 16, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote And name one Govt program that worked really wellThe "Intergalactic Computer Network" (i.e., ARPANET) Does DARPA get all the credit here though, or shouldn't it be shared considerably with Berkeley and Bell Labs? Not sure to what you are specifically refering ... lots of different options. If Bell Labs & transistor, sure; as Meitner/Hahn and Jenner deserve credit for their respective discoveries. Berkeley - not sure you mean UC Berkeley or LBNL? Either way, both likely govt-(supported)-programs. As far as the govt program that enabled/fostered the ARPANET - yes, Steve Lukasik, et al. should get credit. I think the development of unix was a key driver as arpanet became nsfnet in the 80s/90s and its success over rivals like prodigy, compuserve, AOL, and the well. So I credit the SysV folks at AT&T and the BSD people at Cal. If you want to credit NSFnet, it's still a government program. NSFnet opened ARPAnet to a much wider user base. The UNIX operating systems (SysV and BSD) were incremental/evolutionary technology developments; don't get me wrong - they were important ones. One can trace back UNIX to MIT and Multics and back to ... ARPA. Technology developments made by folks at UIUC might have been more important in opening the internet to wider user base. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #177 October 17, 2008 QuoteI have been told by my sisters that the "deserve" to get a certain amount each month from me! Isn't that some crap... Wow.... what is their line of thinking?Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #178 October 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteYou still haven't stated how much you think you should (or shouldn't) be paying? I should be paying at a far higher rate than someone making $25k/yr, at a higher rate than someone making $75k/yr, at a lower rate than someone making $750k/yr and at a far lower rate than someone making $7.5M/yr, there should be no loopholes or shelters, it shouldn't matter whether it is earned or investment income, and cumulatively we should pay our way rather than borrowing from the Chinese for our grandchildren to pay back. Cumulatively pay our way. Nice. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 333 #179 October 17, 2008 Quote 2003 total number of taxpayers (by returns) 131 million 2007 total expenditures $2.8 trillion 2007 average household annual income $50,233 Where are the corporate taxes in there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #180 October 17, 2008 Things to say to your children in the future: Little Suzy, Little Johnie, work hard, try to succeed in school, be successful... so that one day you can pay more taxes to support those that don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #181 October 17, 2008 QuoteThings to say to your children in the future: Little Suzy, Little Johnie, work hard, try to succeed in school, be successful... so that one day you can pay more taxes to support those that don't. ...and for the love of God, try not to get sick cause the government is in charge of your healthcare. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #182 October 17, 2008 >Where are the corporate taxes in there? What? You want to TAX CORPORATIONS? You communist! Kidding. My numbers assumed taking every taxpayer in the US (i.e. everyone who filed a return) and dividing it by our debt. You can move some fraction of that debt to corporations. Doing so and keeping the current corporate tax structure would decrease the total amount owed to 2.4 trillion, resulting in an average 37% tax per taxpayer. (Corporations paid $400 billion in 2007.) Again, you could increase or reduce the amount that corporations pay as your politics indicate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #183 October 17, 2008 QuoteThings to say to your children in the future: Little Suzy, Little Johnie, work hard, try to succeed in school, be successful... so that one day you can have more than those that don't or can't succeed, and despite paying more taxes you will have a good life. It must be sad to be so bitter. I drive to work through a very poor neighborhood every day and I'm thankful that I got educational opportunities that those kids don't have.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #184 October 17, 2008 Quote ...and for the love of God, try not to get sick cause the government is in charge of your healthcare. like in Scandinavia, where infant mortality is lower and life expectancy is longer.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #185 October 17, 2008 Karen's not bitter - she's a realist. Those kids of which you speak. They could have grown up outside of a city with no museums, art shows, concerts, or public libraries within reach and had to work in tobacco fields like I did - with equally poor public schools in Appalachia. Hmm...could it POSSIBLY...just POSSIBLY be a personal responsibility thing, do you think? Then again...perhaps the National Association for the Advancement of Appalachian Rednecks lobbied to get more Appalachian white folks on full scholarship to college...er...no...that's not it...no such organization. I WAS RIGHT! IT IS a personal responsibility thing! Aha! Hot damn am I so fucking sexy. But wait! Soon, via the almighty power of the State, it will ALL be better...because the people who get off of their ass and achieve will be FORCED to give more $$ to those who don't. Doesn't that make you feel good? [barf]Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #186 October 17, 2008 Quotethere should be no loopholes or shelters Are you mad? Imagine a virtual shut-down of the entire wealth management industry, which would cause the planet to spin off its axis. One exception: Tax lawyers would still find work. They're already licensed (and marginally qualified) to defend the inevitable rash of DUI cases resulting from the uptick in alcoholism among unemployed (and unemployable) wealth managers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfnren 2 #187 October 17, 2008 Yes, now that you worked your ass off and don't have to pick tabacco, why would you want to make where you came from better? So those poor white kids have a better education, better medical care, can go to museums, and have more money to go to college. Yes, contributing tax dollars from wealthy individuals to help poor areas improve schools, hospitals ,libraries etc. "Wealth redistrubution" as you call it,is a horible idea... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #188 October 17, 2008 Quotelike in Scandinavia, where infant mortality is lower and life expectancy is longer. Stop using countries with populations smaller than my city as an example as to how socialism can work. It doesn't scale well. Socialized health care would also work well on a commune with 3 doctors, 10 farmers, 5 ranchers, etc etc. It really isn't a good or fair comparison at all.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #189 October 17, 2008 QuoteQuote ...and for the love of God, try not to get sick cause the government is in charge of your healthcare. like in Scandinavia, where infant mortality is lower and life expectancy is longer. Assuming you don't get cancer (Eurocare study)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #190 October 17, 2008 Yes it most certainly is disgusting. So it the idea of a zero-sum economy, the notion that the State alone can improve one's lot in life, and the mere thought of taking someone's $$ and giving it to another person without their consent. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfnren 2 #191 October 17, 2008 Ok, how about Canada, Great Britain, Australia, France, Germany... ALL other major industrialized nations provide nationalized health care.Most with no cost sharing. The US ranks below all the other industrialized countries in Life expectancy, infant mortality,equal access to health care. The life expectancy for Americans has been dropping since the 80's. It also has the largest diparity of health care between rich and poor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfnren 2 #192 October 17, 2008 I never said the state is the only way to improve "one's lot in life" . Next time you need to call the police, fire dep., or send your kids to public school. Think about who's money your taking without their permission and then write every tax payer in the country a check, since your so accountable for you self...Oh why don't you pay to build your own highway while your at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #193 October 17, 2008 QuoteOk, how about Canada, Great Britain, Australia, France, Germany... People spend a lot less money on health insurance, taxes, and living in America than they do in those other places. Quote The US ranks below all the other industrialized countries in Life expectancy, infant mortality,equal access to health care. Correlation does not imply causality. Much of America has a lower population density than much of Europe and we don't have punitive taxes on gas and cars so we drive door to door instead of walking to and from public transport. Our lack of incidental exercise has at least some effect on our longevity. My grandmother who walked lots made it to 92, and grandfather who goes to the gym is still going strong at 89. We measure infant mortality differently too so it's an apples to oranges comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfnren 2 #194 October 17, 2008 Those are valid points... However, most do not pay for health insurance outright, they do pay through higher taxes, true. Yet they do not have co-pay,or deductibles, pre-existing conditions. And every citizen is covered, and businesses are not responsible for providing health insurance to their employee's. Over 45 million Americans are not covered, and most insurance has co-pay and deductibles. As you all know, the cheaper the insurance the higher the deductible. As well as pre-existing conditions not being covered and a host of other things that must be paid for out of pocket. life expectancy is definetly affected by our lack of exercise, but is also affected by people waiting to last minute to go to the doctor because they can't afford it. The figures for infant mortality are Calculated by WHO as # of deaths per thousand births. Indeed correlation does not imply casualty, yet it is hard to rule out... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #195 October 17, 2008 QuoteThose are valid points... However, most do not pay for health insurance outright, they do pay through higher taxes, true. Yet they do not have co-pay,or deductibles, pre-existing conditions. And every citizen is covered, and businesses are not responsible for providing health insurance to their employee's. Over 45 million Americans are not covered, and most insurance has co-pay and deductibles. As you all know, the cheaper the insurance the higher the deductible. As well as pre-existing conditions not being covered and a host of other things that must be paid for out of pocket. life expectancy is definetly affected by our lack of exercise, but is also affected by people waiting to last minute to go to the doctor because they can't afford it. The figures for infant mortality are Calculated by WHO as # of deaths per thousand births. Indeed correlation does not imply casualty, yet it is hard to rule out... You've obviously missed the past arguments on this. Just because Canada provides health care does not mean it's worth a damn. I've never been there or done research but Canadians on this board have said the system is broken. You're buying into the rainbows and unicorns rhetoric. If nobody is paying out of pocket, then all docs are paid by the government. Do they all get paid equally? Shitty doctors paid the same as brilliant docs? What incentive do they have to be good docs? Who gets what doctor? Can we go whenever we want? What about the drugs they prescribe? Are those free too? It's easy to say everyone should have health care cause other countries do it. If you have a realistic proposal as to how it would work then please share. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #196 October 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteThose are valid points... However, most do not pay for health insurance outright, they do pay through higher taxes, true. Yet they do not have co-pay,or deductibles, pre-existing conditions. And every citizen is covered, and businesses are not responsible for providing health insurance to their employee's. Over 45 million Americans are not covered, and most insurance has co-pay and deductibles. As you all know, the cheaper the insurance the higher the deductible. As well as pre-existing conditions not being covered and a host of other things that must be paid for out of pocket. life expectancy is definetly affected by our lack of exercise, but is also affected by people waiting to last minute to go to the doctor because they can't afford it. The figures for infant mortality are Calculated by WHO as # of deaths per thousand births. Indeed correlation does not imply casualty, yet it is hard to rule out... You've obviously missed the past arguments on this. Just because Canada provides health care does not mean it's worth a damn. I've never been there or done research but Canadians on this board have said the system is broken. You're buying into the rainbows and unicorns rhetoric. If nobody is paying out of pocket, then all docs are paid by the government. Do they all get paid equally? Shitty doctors paid the same as brilliant docs? What incentive do they have to be good docs? Who gets what doctor? Can we go whenever we want? What about the drugs they prescribe? Are those free too? It's easy to say everyone should have health care cause other countries do it. If you have a realistic proposal as to how it would work then please share. The "it's not fair" and "I should get 'x' too" crowd will never understand that personal responsibility is the basic argument that those arguing against these "x"s have. Health care IS out there. You can bitch and moan all you want about how half of America or what ever ignorant statistics you want to throw out... but it IS out there. You might have to look at your budget. If you make above a certain amount - yes, you have to be willing to cut the cable tv and some of the play money. If you make BELOW a certain amount you have to go and fill out some forms. Medicaid is out there. I am saddened by the ladies that come in after 28weeks on medicaid because they just didn't go to the case worker for the last SEVEN months. And it's someone elses fault. almost always. If you're not happy where you are, do something to change it. And that does NOT include stealing from those that have what you think you need. And yes, I do think that unfair tax distribution is stealing. Why should someone that makes 500k pay 40% in taxes (200,000 to uncle sam), while someone making 50k only pays 15% (7,500 to uncle.) Talk about UNFAIR! OK... so you argue that the one making the half mil has the money so is better able to provide for the less fortunate. But... lets say that IF that person made 450k and only paid 35% (157,000).... If this person worked harder and made an extra bonus of 50k.... then bump... that all goes to the government. Where is the incentive to work harder? And... Kallend, I'm not bitter. I'm actually quite giving. I will GIVE. I just don't want it stolen and taken. I want to decide where to give my charity - personally I prefer the Shriners Hospitals and St. Judes. I don't want it redistributed among the politicians. Basically I see this "wealth redistribution" as a cop out from personal responsibility and integrity. You no longer have to work for your future... just take from others that did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #197 October 17, 2008 Take ECON 101 and get back to us. Fact: life is not fair and it is not the role of the State to make it so. Deal with it. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #198 October 17, 2008 QuoteThe "it's not fair" and "I should get 'x' too" crowd will never understand that personal responsibility is the basic argument that those arguing against these "x"s have. You're using labels like this not to rebut the merits of a perspective with which you disagree, but to demonize the people with whom you disagree. I suggest that kind of stridency is divisive. In other threads, you've made quite clear your disdain for people who use rhetoric that you find to be imperious, or dismissive of other people. Shouldn't that standard be applied evenly? How would you like it if someone referred to fiscal or social conservatives as "the let them eat cake crowd?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #199 October 17, 2008 QuoteHow would you like it if someone referred to fiscal or social conservatives as "the let them eat cake crowd?" If they buy the kitchen appliances, buy the ingredients, and bake the cake ... they should be allowed to eat it and shouldn't have to share it."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeflyChile 0 #200 October 17, 2008 Quote Take ECON 101 and get back to us. Fact: life is not fair and it is not the role of the State to make it so. Deal with it. Actually, LIFE is fair. It's people and the systems they set up who are unfair. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
