Obama has a problem with the Constitution

[TrophyHusband 0]

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>but how do you determine who gets paid and who has to pay?

Anyone who was directly defrauded can recover damages. For example, if you were denied schooling based on your race, you may be able to recover damages from the state that denied you education. If they denied your _father_ education, then no, you are not entitled to anything.

i'm willing to go along with that, although i would put that in the category of a discrimination lawsuit as opposed to slavery reparations. whatever you want to call it, i agree with your above statement.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[SpeedRacer 1]

OK, but Obama didnt' bring up slave reparations. You did.

I don't believe that Obama is stupid enough to think it is acceptable to pay people to be black.

Speed Racer
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[lawrocket 3]

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There's nothing in the Constitution about skydiving, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to skydive. It prevents the government from taking away rights without a good reason.

Actually, here is where I would differ. Is there a "right" to skydive? Not really. Instead, it's something that the government doesn't mind, but regulates. There are requirements to TSO rigs. Etc. They've banned BASE from places - there's no right to do it.

The Bill of Rights is pretty specific with what it forbids the government from doing. We have a series of Amendments that adds to it.

Now, the States themselves could say, "Within our territory, all persons shall have the right to privacy." The Constitution works like that. California can say, "There is the right to BASE in California and shall not be infringed." Then people will try to go off of El Cap and OOOPS! That's Federal Land so it won't work.

The Feds can ban BASE in the US and its territories. Then the Feds can bust you for doing it, even if the individual States allow it. (This was what the SCOTUS in the Raich decision held).

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,027]

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the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. It says what the states can’t do to you, it says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf.

i always thought that the constitution's main objective was to protect the people from the goverment, not to provide for the people.

Can you link to YOUR complaints when it became known that the government was tapping phones without a warrant and imprisoning people without trial?

that's not the subject here

The constitution is, though. I guess you just don't want to answer, since we all know what the answer is.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,991]

> Instead, it's something that the government doesn't mind, but regulates.

Right - but that's true of everything, even things we have explicit rights to. You have the right to free speech, but not the right to have a parade in a town without a permit. You have the right to own guns, but not the right to carry them in public airports.

[TrophyHusband 0]

the answer is not relevant. you can probably find hundreds or thousands of instances where the government has violated the constitution. you debate by deflection, distraction, and pointing to other peoples' bad behavior. why don't you try addressing the subject and providing your opinion on it?

do you think the constitution should define what the state or federal government should do on your behalf?

what do you think obama meant by economic justice?

i know you don't agree with my or my assessments, and that's fine. i'm interested your opinions on this subject. i promise i won't try to invalidate your opinions based on your lack of opinions on previous government actions.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[livendive 8]

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i also think that when he talks about economic justice, he's refering to reparations for slavery.

He has specifically stated that he thinks the best reparations, and the only ones that will work in America, are those that involve investment in better healthcare for the poor, better schools in inner cities, and better training for the unemployed. Those are not specific to race, however they will disproportionately affect the black population. Personally, I'm not opposed to such reparations, provided they represent a leg-up for all of the needy rather than a handout just for the blacks.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[TrophyHusband 0]

i have not heard that, but i'll take your word for it. if that's what he believes, then i am wrong in my original assessment of his reparations stance. that's a good thing. i hope i'm wrong on a lot of things i believe about him.

when i think of economic justice in the context of the civil rights movement, what comes to my mind is payback for past injustices. slavery comes to mind immediately, but bill pointed out that being denied education because of race could also be included. my view of who obama is, and the fact that he attended about 500 sermons given by rev wright steers my thinking towards the more extreme. thank you for pointing this out to me, it does help me refine my view of him.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

See this:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/10/obamas_redistribution_bombshel.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/spread_the_tax_hooey.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_welfare.html

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[kallend 2,027]

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See this:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/10/obamas_redistribution_bombshel.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/spread_the_tax_hooey.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_welfare.html

Don't confuse a good panic attack with facts - what are you, some kind of sadist?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

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That Government Loan caused a (gasp) Redistribution of Wealth into my wallet, meaning I could afford a car & a nicer place to live.

Clearly you worked for it.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Yep! Me too. I got a student loan that allowed me to attend the second most expensive school in the US. That in turn allowed me to get a job that let me pay back the loan within five years. I guess that makes me (and the 80% of the people in my class who got similar loans) socialist.

Gee. I could have gone to MIT in ChE with 3 fellowships paying my way.

We are all engines of karma

[kallend 2,027]

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the answer is not relevant. you can probably find hundreds or thousands of instances where the government has violated the constitution. you debate by deflection, distraction, and pointing to other peoples' bad behavior. why don't you try addressing the subject and providing your opinion on it?

You brought up the purpose of the Constitution being to protect the people from the government. It is perfectly legitimate to ask you if you complained as loudly when Bush imprisoned people without trial, endorsed torture, and tapped people's phones without a warrant. Or do you limit your complaints to Democrats and their imagined Constitutional violations.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,991]

>Gee. I could have gone to MIT in ChE with 3 fellowships paying my way.

Cool! I could not have. I was just a high school student with somewhat above average grades. I'm glad I got the chance to attend that school; it has helped me immeasurably since then.

[speuci 0]

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the answer is not relevant. you can probably find hundreds or thousands of instances where the government has violated the constitution.

No you can't, because the consitution is written in broad strokes. Even the Code which provides finer strokes doesn't freqeuntly enumerate specifics.

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what do you think obama meant by economic justice?

I interpret this as the ability to play on a more level playing field. This IS NOT NECESSARILY an equal playing field.

We are an equal opportunity country, but not an equal accessibilty country. Socioeconomic position has a huge impact on what opportunities we will be presented with in our lives. To the extent that tax dollars are shifted around from rich-people (who have low marginal value of an extra dollar) to poor-people (who have high marginal value of an extra dollar), and further, to the extent that those shifts are done only to the extent necessary to enable poorer people to cover the costs of necessaries, I'm all for *REDISTRIBUTION* even if i'm the one whose wealth is being redistributed.

[airdvr 210]

[REPLY]those that involve investment in better healthcare for the poor, better schools in inner cities, and better training for the unemployed.

[Gawain 0]

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>I'll just add this: liberties belong to the PEOPLE, not the government.

Right. And that's the primary point of the Bill of Rights - a list of liberties that the government may not infringe upon.

Correct, however, I don't understand how that translates to a "negative" liberty (?)...

Sen. Obama's (then State Sen. Obama) clearly has/had an issue with the fact that the Constitution doesn't say what the government should do, where that is clearly not the case.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TrophyHusband 0]

this thread is about obama and the constitution. if you want to talk about that, do so. if you want to talk about bush's contitutional violations, start another thread about it. you aren't going to draw me into a conversation about bush in this thread. stop the deflection, distraction, and pointing to other peoples' bad behavior and have a proper debate. i'm not going to respond to any more of your posts in this thread unless you address the subject of the thread.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[ferdberfel 0]

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>I'll just add this: liberties belong to the PEOPLE, not the government.

Right. And that's the primary point of the Bill of Rights - a list of liberties that the government may not infringe upon.

Correct, however, I don't understand how that translates to a "negative" liberty (?)...

Sen. Obama's (then State Sen. Obama) clearly has/had an issue with the fact that the Constitution doesn't say what the government should do, where that is clearly not the case.

Let's see here.
On one side, we have a Harvard educated lawyer, who spent many years as Constitutional Law professor.

On the other, we have Max, who writes "Sen. Obama's (then State Sen. Obama) clearly has/had an issue with the fact that the Constitution doesn't say what the government should do, where that is clearly not the case."

Max in no way has the background and credentials of Obama. Draw your own conclusions as to which person is likely to make accurate statements WRT the Constitution, and its meaning.

[Gawain 0]

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>I'll just add this: liberties belong to the PEOPLE, not the government.

Right. And that's the primary point of the Bill of Rights - a list of liberties that the government may not infringe upon.

Correct, however, I don't understand how that translates to a "negative" liberty (?)...

Sen. Obama's (then State Sen. Obama) clearly has/had an issue with the fact that the Constitution doesn't say what the government should do, where that is clearly not the case.

Let's see here.
On one side, we have a Harvard educated lawyer, who spent many years as Constitutional Law professor.

On the other, we have Max, who writes "Sen. Obama's (then State Sen. Obama) clearly has/had an issue with the fact that the Constitution doesn't say what the government should do, where that is clearly not the case."

Max in no way has the background and credentials of Obama. Draw your own conclusions as to which person is likely to make accurate statements WRT the Constitution, and its meaning.

I'm not running for office (yet )...and I can read. Pre-tell, where in the Constitution does it say the federal government plays a role.

Hint: it's in the Preamble, the rest is in the 10th Amendment. Sen. Obama should get his Harvard money back to whomever paid for it.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,027]

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this thread is about obama and the constitution. if you want to talk about that, do so. if you want to talk about bush's contitutional violations, start another thread about it. you aren't going to draw me into a conversation about bush in this thread. stop the deflection, distraction, and pointing to other peoples' bad behavior and have a proper debate. i'm not going to respond to any more of your posts in this thread unless you address the subject of the thread.

Well, we all know that you didn't say one peep about Bush trampling all over the Bill of Rights, so it does make your criticisms of Obama seem like you have, shall we say, a DOUBLE STANDARD.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Correct, however, I don't understand how that translates to a "negative" liberty (?)...

Max,

Your comment above (“‘negative’ liberty (?)”) suggests unfamiliarity with the term.
What do you think a negative liberty is?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[livendive 8]

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Sen. Obama's (then State Sen. Obama) clearly has/had an issue with the fact that the Constitution doesn't say what the government should do, where that is clearly not the case.

Can you show what makes this so clear to you? A factual description of a state of affairs is not necessarily a complaint. If I say the sky is clear, or it is cold out, that doesn't necessarily mean I want it to cloud or warm up.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,991]

>Correct, however, I don't understand how that translates to a "negative" liberty (?)

"Negative liberty" refers to freedom from interference by the government. The Bill of Rights lists several negative liberties explicitly. Sometimes it's better to substitute the term "inalienable rights" or "natural rights" for "negative liberty" if that term sounds too negative. (no pun intended.)

For an overview of what a negative liberty is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty