When do you think life starts?

[quade 4]

How do you feel about in-vitro fertilization for people trying to have a child?

How do you feel about tissue cloning research and the possibility of growing replacement body parts?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[n23x 0]

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I believe in my original post that I did state that abortion in the cases of incest or rape was the only reasons to use it ever. I think I want to say that first.

I don't believe I suggested you said anything contrary to the above statement in my post?

That being said, why, to you, is an incestually conceived child abortable?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[caress 0]

Truth be told Quade I dont know how I feel about cloning.

Invitro. I have questions about that Quade. I understand that is a proceedure where they implant conceived eggs in the mom to achieve pregnancy? What do they do with the left over conceived eggs?

It really jerks on my principal strings Quade. I know what it is like to have that baby spinnin around in there. What it would be like to long for that pulls on my heart for those women, that does not make the process the right thing to do though. So many medical breakthroughs with morals and ethics questions. Just not something I have ever pondered Quade. Right now I have no opinion for that. Including cloning replacement body parts. I think right now I feel that it is messing with areas where they are trying to beat death(cloning) and put babies where they wouldnt naturally occur(invitro) Since I have faith in Jesus Christ Quade, I would say they are treading in waters that arent meant to be treaded in. -Caress

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

[kallend 2,106]

One of the VP candidates (Palin) is on record as wanting a constitutional amendment that would prevent a RAPE VICTIM from having an abortion. How do you feel about a rape victim being forced against her will to bear the child of her rapist?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[klingeme 1]

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One of the VP candidates (Palin) is on record as wanting a constitutional amendment that would prevent a RAPE VICTIM from having an abortion. How do you feel about a rape victim being forced against her will to bear the child of her rapist?

If you believe that abortion is murder, then what is the difference between a rape victom, a 14 year old, or a 30 year old slut, and why should one be allowed tto kill a baby while the others can not.

If you don't believe it is the endng of a life, then lets start advertising on TV with sales on abortions cause there is nothing wrong with the procedure.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[caress 0]

I believe I answered that in my original post. In the cases of rape, or incest, the mother should be able to choose.

Why would Palin even say something like that?
That sounds pretty unconstructive for the campaign.

Anyway Kallend thats how I feel about that. Its a really bad idea.

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

[klingeme 1]

And what if the rape victom has the baby but shortly after, decides she can't hack it and throws the kid in a dumpster? Is that still alright?

[billvon 3,075]

>If you believe that abortion is murder, then what is the difference between a rape
>victom, a 14 year old, or a 30 year old slut, and why should one be allowed tto kill
>a baby while the others can not.

Nothing. Which is why the "abortion is murder" angle can blind people to reality. In reality, there is actually a difference between a rape victim, a 14 year old girl and a 30 year old promiscuous woman.

[klingeme 1]

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>If you believe that abortion is murder, then what is the difference between a rape
>victom, a 14 year old, or a 30 year old slut, and why should one be allowed tto kill
>a baby while the others can not.

Nothing. Which is why the "abortion is murder" angle can blind people to reality. In reality, there is actually a difference between a rape victim, a 14 year old girl and a 30 year old promiscuous woman.

But if it is not the ending of a life, what the hell is the big deal about the kid and the slut having an abortion? Why should we not promote it as "just another form of birth control"?

[caress 0]

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If you believe that abortion is murder, then what is the difference between a rape victom, a 14 year old, or a 30 year old slut, and why should one be allowed tto kill a baby while the others can not.

You are not acknowleging the trauma. Rape is a desecration, violation, and brutal cruel act upon a womans' soul and spirit. I would hope and pray that no one whould ever have to bare a child from that act unless they chose to. I would also hope and pray that God would be merciful in that situation as well as yourself. I am not trying to argue or say you are not entitled to your opinion here, but have you ever thought about it in that way? I know that this situation cannot directly affect you, but what if it were your daughter or your wife, would you still feel that way?-Caress PS I have to leave now and I will be back later if you want to pm me, go ahead, otherwise I willhave to continue this thread later.

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

• Quote

[billvon 3,075]

> Why should we not promote it as "just another form of birth control"?

Because it's not "just another form of birth control." (Although sadly some people do see it that way.(

I know you do not see shades of gray here, but most people do. It is why, I fear, most people here will not see eye to eye with you.

[klingeme 1]

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You are not acknowleging the trauma. Rape is a desecration, violation, and brutal cruel act upon a womans' soul and spirit. I would hope and pray that no one whould ever have to bare a child from that act unless they chose to. I would also hope and pray that God would be merciful in that situation as well as yourself. I am not trying to argue or say you are not entitled to your opinion here, but have you ever thought about it in that way? I know that this situation cannot directly affect you, but what if it were your daughter or your wife, would you still feel that way?-Caress PS I have to leave now and I will be back later if you want to pm me, go ahead, otherwise I willhave to continue this thread later.

I was born with a birth defect that gave my parents months of "trauma" wondering if I would survive the early months of my life, and I'm glad they decided to "tough it out" rather than taking the "easy route". This has a lot to do with my value for the life of the unborn.



Mark Klingelhoefer

[peregrinerose 0]

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I was born with a birth defect that gave my parents months of "trauma" wondering if I would survive the early months of my life, and I'm glad they decided to "tough it out" rather than taking the "easy route". This has a lot to do with my value for the life of the unborn.

You can value the life of the unborn while still being able to empathize with a rape victim and at least try to comprehend the hellish situation she may face, carrying the child of the man that assaulted her. Could you truly look into the eyes of a scared pregnant 14 year old and not see the fear and anguish that she is going through?

There are a lot more people involved and emotions in play than the fetus alone, and to close out all of the picture and all of the scenarios and at least acknowledging the pain involved for the other people makes you appear to be narrow minded.

There are a lot of grays. Look at it this way, even if abortion was illegal, abortions would continue... in other corners, in illegal centers, 'home abortions' etc. Sure, making abortion illegal might reduce the numbers, but not eliminate it. Are there other, more socially productive means to reduce abortions? Yes.... reduce the 'market' for it. Better parenting, better services for high risk kids (ie those in foster care, low socioeconomic areas, etc), better access to birth control, better psych services for kids, better access to sterilization services for those who know they don't want kids, better adoption structures, partner clinics that do provide abortions directly with organizations that provide adoption help, get the pregnant women hooked up directly with care during the term of their pregnancies, get rid of the loopholes in the laws that prevent adoptions (that moms can show up even years after giving birth and get the kid back), etc.

Solve the problems, and there are a LOT of problems that lead to people getting abortions, rather than just treating the symptom... short term will be much harder and will require actual personal real work done by every single person who feels like you do. But the long term benefits would be much greater.

If every pro-lifer was a big brother/big sister, volunteered with at risk kids, took a pregnant teen into their home to support her during her pregnancy, adopted an older child out of the foster care system, or volunteered to help high risk parents help their children, there wouldn't be so many abortions. Unfortuntately, most people would rather just run their mouths than make an actual difference in a person's life.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pirana 0]

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That being said, why, to you, is an incestually conceived child abortable?

You are exposing this person's personal morals, and possibly some situational ethics, (all good, we're all just here to chat, right); which may have no logical basis.

Good example: Sometimes people come off sounding like they have a life-is-sacred principle. I've met a lot of people that would state that outright on their own, or if prompted to answer the question "Is life sacred?"

In reality, very few people truly believe that. Almost everybody I've ever met has a line that can't be crossed. They have some situation that allows life to be brought to an end. Could be abortion, suicide, what they see as a just war, mercy killing, self-defense, etc.

As with killing, things like incest & rape can stir powerful emotions. Someone that might take a stand and say no abortions, then might start making exceptions because one of their other priciples or morals got touched. There is no real logic to it; it's just emotional response based on some value that got instilled. Emotions do not always make sense, especially when several potentially conflicting principles come into play.

So if you are looking for logic you might not find any.

A fun little excercise is to write down all your priciples on little slips of paper. Try building a pyramid with them with your most sacred principle at the top, not to be violated regardless of all other principles.

What you find out is that what most people mistake for a heirarchy of principles is just a web of tangled emotional responses.

Pardon the longwindedness. Felt the need to say more than "Because humans are more emotional than logical."

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[klingeme 1]

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If every pro-lifer was a big brother/big sister, volunteered with at risk kids, took a pregnant teen into their home to support her during her pregnancy, adopted an older child out of the foster care system, or volunteered to help high risk parents help their children, there wouldn't be so many abortions. Unfortuntately, most people would rather just run their mouths than make an actual difference in a person's life.

I'm not a big brother, but I did spend 1 year of my life as a Youth Counselor 24 hours a day 5 (and sometimes 7) days a week in the middle of the everglades being a "parent" to between 12 and 18 Department of Juvenile Justice Youth offenders (and a few foster kids that were "too tough" for any other placement).

As far as the woman who has been raped, I understand it is a HORRIBLE act/situation, but where does the line get drawn? Being the parent of a developmentally challenged kid is really tough. Should they be aborted?

I personally do not see the grey. It is either ending a life or not. A child of rape that is put up for adoption can live a fantastic life.

Why is it OK to "end a life" in some situations and not others?

Mark Klingelhoefer

Mark Klingelhoefer

[peregrinerose 0]

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Why is it OK to "end a life" in some situations and not others?

That is the gray area right there.... your feelings as to when it is ok to end a life/when life begins may not be the same as the next persons. Why is your perception the only 'right' one? Isn't it possible that most of us on here debating this topic really do want to do what is 'best'? That all of our intensions are good and honorable? Your ideas and mine may be a little bit different, but that doesn't make either of us evil people or either of wrong. We are just doing the best we can to solve problems..... you did your year of work with high risk kids, I'm adopting out of foster care (the older kids no one else wants).

The difference between us is that I'd like to see the problems of the world addressed before eliminating a very difficult option for some people. You'd rather eliminate that option and then deal with the fall out later (more kids on the streets, more kids in foster care, more lousy parents, etc... you've already seen first hand that this is a cycle... keeping abortion an option for now puts a few less people in the cycle for now). I don't know which of our ways is better or would be more effective... they both are shades of gray.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[klingeme 1]

So if you believe that life starts sometime after conception (lets use 3 months as a example) what is wrong with using abortion as birth control within those 3 months, and why are more people not "pro abortion". If it is not the ending of a life, then nothing tragic is happening. If it is the ending of a life, then the story line behind the pregnancy (rape, 14 year old, slut) should not matter. If is is a life, why is it OK for a rape victom to end the life, but not the slut?

Mark

PS. I'm not trying to be offensive with the "slut" term, just painting a picture. I hope this is not offending anyone.

[n23x 0]

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PS. I'm not trying to be offensive with the "slut" term, just painting a picture. I hope this is not offending anyone.

Don't worry, you're only weakening your arguement, not ours.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[billvon 3,075]

> If it is not the ending of a life, then nothing tragic is happening. If it is the ending
>of a life, then the story line behind the pregnancy (rape, 14 year old, slut) should
>not matter.

You keep referring to that line. There is no such line.

Should a family allow a brain-dead man's body to expire by removing the machines supporting his life? Yes. Is it ending a life? Yes. Is it murder? No. Does that mean that no one cares - it's just like flipping a light switch? No.

Should a woman be able to do a selective reduction to give her remaining fetuses a better chance at life? Yes. Is it killing? Yes. Does that mean that she should go to jail? No. Does that mean that it's as easy a decision as what to have for dinner? No.

[kallend 2,106]

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You are not acknowleging the trauma. Rape is a desecration, violation, and brutal cruel act upon a womans' soul and spirit. I would hope and pray that no one whould ever have to bare a child from that act unless they chose to. I would also hope and pray that God would be merciful in that situation as well as yourself. I am not trying to argue or say you are not entitled to your opinion here, but have you ever thought about it in that way? I know that this situation cannot directly affect you, but what if it were your daughter or your wife, would you still feel that way?-Caress PS I have to leave now and I will be back later if you want to pm me, go ahead, otherwise I willhave to continue this thread later.

I was born with a birth defect that gave my parents months of "trauma" wondering if I would survive the early months of my life, and I'm glad they decided to "tough it out" rather than taking the "easy route". This has a lot to do with my value for the life of the unborn.



Mark Klingelhoefer

So you have a personal interest that colors your views . Are you just blind to the plight of female victims of sexual assault because it doesn't affect you?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

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what is the difference between a rape victom, a 14 year old, or a 30 year old slut,

If you are unable to see a difference between a slut and a rape victim, I feel sorry for the women in your life.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

• Quote

[billvon 3,075]

>Was your father a rapist

Your one warning. Cut it out.

[peregrinerose 0]

I honestly don't know when life begins. My guess is as good as yours. I can see the point to brain waves, conception, viability.... all make logical sense, I don't know which (if any) is 'right'. Because I don't know conclusively when life begins, I'd rather see abortions never happen. You and I just differ as to how to make that a reality. I'm also not so arrogant as to make judgement calls for other women. Their ideas as to when life begins may be different, and they may be right, I can't impose my ideals on them.... and truly, is it fair for a child to be born, unwanted by their parents? Sometimes it's better for the child as well to not be born.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[kallend 2,106]

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>Was your father a rapist

Your one warning. Cut it out.

Sorry, Bill and kling, not the best way of asking. But if he's going to use his own life story to support his position of abortions, he should be prepared to put himself in the position of other victims too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[caress 0]

I am glad that they toughed it out too. I understand your passion for life completly.

I just cannot accept forcing a woman to have a child conceived in rape or incest unless it is of their choosing. That is all that I am saying. Its my opinion.-Caress

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.