klingeme 1 #1 October 30, 2008 Enough of this grey area stuff, what do YOU believe is the "Magical Moment" when life starts? edited to add that I voted conception. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #2 October 30, 2008 When the beer starts flowing??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #3 October 30, 2008 QuoteEnough of this grey area stuff, what do YOU believe is the "Magical Moment" when life starts? edited to add that I voted conception. I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. That's why it would be inappropriate for me to push my views on abortion on anyone else...because reasonable minds can logically reach different conclusions on the subject. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #4 October 30, 2008 QuoteI don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. That's why it would be inappropriate for me to push my views on abortion on anyone else...because reasonable minds can logically reach different conclusions on the subject. Well said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #5 October 30, 2008 We can actually have a good idea of when life starts by observing when life ends. Brain activity is my simple answer.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #6 October 30, 2008 QuoteI don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. That's why it would be inappropriate for me to push my views on abortion on anyone else...because reasonable minds can logically reach different conclusions on the subject. Blues, Dave +1I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #7 October 30, 2008 Life has never "stopped." Egg cells and sperm are alive - that does not mean that birth control is killing a human being. Blastocysts are alive - that does not mean that IUD's are equivalent to murder. Fetuses are alive - but that does not mean that abortions are murder. The more important question is when does the fetus become a human being? I can see two good answers to that. The first is the brain. The one thing that defines us as uniquely human is our mind. With a mind, someone is a whole person, even if their bodies are crippled. Without a mind, they are not human, and the only question that remains is how long to keep them alive mechanically. The second is viability. Once a fetus can survive outside the womb, there's not much question that it is a human being. In a fetus, the brain starts working at between 8-12 weeks. The fetus becomes viable after about 24 weeks. So choosing a line between those extremes, to me, would be defensible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #8 October 30, 2008 i voted "some other time". i think life starts at viability. once a fetus reaches an age where it could survive outside the womb and not have any serious lasting effects, it becomes a life. before that i feel that it is technically a parasite that is part of a woman's body (if she sees it that way) and she can abort it if she wishes. this is just a general answer and still leaves open a lot of gray area. its also a rather cold scientific answer for the purposes of determining what point an abortion should no longer be allowed. on a more emotional, non-scientific level, life for my children started when we had a positive pregnancy test. i'm guessing thats when it starts for most people. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #9 October 30, 2008 QuoteThe second is viability. Once a fetus can survive outside the womb, there's not much question that it is a human being. What newborn can survive without help? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guppie01 0 #10 October 30, 2008 QuoteLife has never "stopped." Egg cells and sperm are alive - that does not mean that birth control is killing a human being. Blastocysts are alive - that does not mean that IUD's are equivalent to murder. Fetuses are alive - but that does not mean that abortions are murder. The more important question is when does the fetus become a human being? I can see two good answers to that. The first is the brain. The one thing that defines us as uniquely human is our mind. With a mind, someone is a whole person, even if their bodies are crippled. Without a mind, they are not human, and the only question that remains is how long to keep them alive mechanically. The second is viability. Once a fetus can survive outside the womb, there's not much question that it is a human being. In a fetus, the brain starts working at between 8-12 weeks. The fetus becomes viable after about 24 weeks. So choosing a line between those extremes, to me, would be defensible. Well defined sir! g"Let's do something romantic this Saturday... how bout we bust out the restraints?" Raddest Ho this side of Jersey #1 - MISS YOU OMG, is she okay? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #11 October 30, 2008 Quote Enough of this grey area stuff, what do YOU believe is the "Magical Moment" when life starts? edited to add that I voted conception. I'll finally agree you you on something. Still doesn't give me the right to dictate what other people believe/do in their lives. What say ye about that Mr. Mark? I have three (grown) children alive. Remember Mikey? The tandem from hell as Dwight called him? He's dead now but damn sure had a bit of fun w/ him. And they are a pain in the ass. But I wouldn't abort them even in retrospect. Hey. If Dwight is still around I'd like a copy of the tandem chase I did w/ him. And Jeramy. Where's he? I'm sure he has a copy of the tandem chase w/ my daughter. PM me asshole. I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #12 October 30, 2008 That's an interesting question. For myself, it's when the child can survive under direct care of the mother(note, that does NOT include incubation in some pre-natal facility). As Trophyhusband notes above, it certainly can be seen as a cold view, but that's how it is. If the baby is not "wholly a person", it's not a person. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #13 October 30, 2008 QuoteQuoteEnough of this grey area stuff, what do YOU believe is the "Magical Moment" when life starts? edited to add that I voted conception.I'll finally agree you you on something. Still doesn't give me the right to dictate what other people believe/do in their lives. What say ye about that Mr. Mark? I have three (grown) children alive. And they are a pain in the ass. But I wouldn't abort them. I think abortion the the ending of a human life and I'm proud to say that I am Anti-Abortion, but still fail to understand why people who don't believe this do not proudly say that they are "pro abortion" and that abortion should be used as a form of contraception. If you do not believe it is taking a life, what is "Morally wrong" with the procedure and why do they hide behind the "Pro Choice" label. The procedure is called an abortion and people should be for (pro) them if they think it is not a life and against (anti) them if it is not a life. the situation surrounding the pregnancy should not matter. it is either ending a life or not. In the case of the mother's life will end if the baby is delivered, it is a choice between 2 lives, kind of like the car is on fire and a parent and 2 kids are in the car and you only have time to save one kid. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #14 October 30, 2008 QuoteThat's an interesting question. For myself, it's when the child can survive under direct care of the mother(note, that does NOT include incubation in some pre-natal facility). As Trophyhusband notes above, it certainly can be seen as a cold view, but that's how it is. If the baby is not "wholly a person", it's not a person. .jim So there is nothing wrong with partial birth abortion by your view. Correct? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #15 October 30, 2008 QuoteThe first is the brain. The one thing that defines us as uniquely human is our mind. With a mind, someone is a whole person, even if their bodies are crippled. While the mind can not exist without a brain, the brain definitely can exist without a mind. So, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with just using the functioning of a brain as a starting point for human life. It's a starting point, but I think you have to go beyond simply functioning.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #16 October 30, 2008 QuoteI'm proud to say that I am Anti-Abortion, but still fail to understand why people who don't believe this do not proudly say that they are "pro abortion" because "pro-abortion" means that you actively want women to have abortions. i would be willing to bet that most pro choice people don't actually want there to be any abortions. i don't like abortion and don't want to have a part in one, but i realize that it isn't my choice to make. i feel that this one should be left to the adult women in those situations and come judgement day, (if you believe in that sort of thing) they will have to settle this one with their maker. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #17 October 30, 2008 I heard that life starts at 40..... but I'm still waiting. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #18 October 30, 2008 QuoteQuoteI'm proud to say that I am Anti-Abortion, but still fail to understand why people who don't believe this do not proudly say that they are "pro abortion" because "pro-abortion" means that you actively want women to have abortions. i would be willing to bet that most pro choice people don't actually want there to be any abortions. i don't like abortion and don't want to have a part in one, but i realize that it isn't my choice to make. i feel that this one should be left to the adult women in those situations and come judgement day, (if you believe in that sort of thing) they will have to settle this one with their maker. If I get your position correctly, you believe abortion is the ending of a life, but you believe women should have the choice to end the lives of their unborn children. Correct? Also, men should have no say at all in the termination of a pregnancy that they were half responsible in creating, but if the woman chooses to have the child, they should be 100% responsible for the financing of said child. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #19 October 30, 2008 To all of the "After Birth" people, do you believe that there is nothing wrong with a partial birth abortion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 October 30, 2008 QuoteWe can actually have a good idea of when life starts by observing when life ends. Brain activity is my simple answer. So, for women, around 19 years old? for men, sometime in their late 20s? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #21 October 30, 2008 Where is the option for when you move out of the house and can support yourself?Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #22 October 30, 2008 After 5:30 PM on Friday. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #23 October 30, 2008 Quote If I get your position correctly, you believe abortion is the ending of a life, but you believe women should have the choice to end the lives of their unborn children. Correct? not exactly. before viability it is not its own life, it is a part of the woman's body. at this point it is the woman's choice. once the fetus reaches viability (a a huge grey area in itself), it is its own life and therefore should not be terminated. (exceptions can be made to save the mother's life) QuoteAlso, men should have no say at all in the termination of a pregnancy that they were half responsible in creating, but if the woman chooses to have the child, they should be 100% responsible for the financing of said child. Mark this is a complicated issue. i don't like the fact that men don't have reproductive rights, but that doesn't matter. you just can't have a man making that decision for the woman or coercing a woman into having an abortion. the consequence of this is that he is responsible for this child that he doesn't even want. it sucks, but sometimes there is just no good answer. that's life. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 2 #24 October 30, 2008 Well, this is actually quite simple and is already defined by the law. According to the law if a pregnant woman is murdered the murder is tried for the murder of two people. The law does not specify how far along the pregancy she must be only that she is pregant. Therefore, a person must simply prove that they were pregant. Currently techology found at target allows us to know when someone is pregant within 2 weeks of conception. If one had access to the necessary equipment one could actually prove that someone was pregant even if they were murdered the day of conception. Therefore, if a child is aborted at any point after conception then it is murder. Ultimately this law is in conflict with the aborption laws and therefore one or the other should change. In addition, from another standpoint, upon conception devolopement begins which will ultimately result in a child. If a person is to simply withhold the necessary things needed for sustained developement this too would be murder according to our own laws. If a child or person is not provided food and they die, this would be murder. In fact we do not even allow this kind of treatment to animals yet we do of a developing child? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #25 October 30, 2008 I think partial birth abortions are probably the biggest detractor to how many view abortion as a whole, while representing (in my less-informed view) a relatively small amount of overall abortions. It would be my hope that a person wanting an abortion would acquire one earlier than later, and that a late-term abortion was performed due to possible injury to the mother. All of that being said, it's not really any of my business, and what a woman and her doctor decide is the choice they deal with, not me. Life is important, Mark, but I guess I see far more significance in participating in something like Big Brothers Big Sisters than trying to get more feet on the street. To each their own. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
