Palin on fruit flies - why does she hate science?

[jakee 1,489]

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Quite the contrary. I myself am an engineer and spent several years working in research at a major university.
I was merely pointing out what you asked for....a reason for the mistrust. Surely it is not the only reason but it is, nonetheless, valid.

Fine, so you were pretending to be someone who has a fundamental misunderstanding etc. etc. Same thing

And yes, the religiou retards who think that science is a tool of the devil because they haven't looked for all of their answers in the book of genesis are out there too, but they are extreme.

But there seems also to be this more widespread feeling that people who work in the sciences are really just mucking about (Bah, fruit flies, how silly!), and should get a haircut and a real job and start contributing to society, like Joe the Plumber or Dave the Mechanic.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,026]

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"Ehm...you're going to have to find a better example. Dark matter is easily detectable. The galaxies would rotate at different angular velocities had it not been there. The hard part is finding out what it is... "

Dark matter can NOT be detected. As of now it can only be hypothesized.

The gravitational signature of dark matter can be detected by astronomers.

Rather like Helium was discovered because its spectroscopic signature could be detected by astronomers. It was another 25 years before anyone (Ramsay) managed to find any.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rasmack 0]

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Dark matter can NOT be detected. As of now it can only be hypothesized.

Unless you operate in a semantic realm where "detected" means "visible to the naked eye and manipulable by hand" you are wrong. If this is your understanding of the word I direct you attention to the fact that by that definition the Earth is flat and atoms do not exist.

You may be confusing the discussion with the nature of cold dark matter which I admit readily is highly model dependent. There is, however, no doubt about the presence of it.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Kallend, you of all people here should know that the gravitational signature that has been observed can't be ruled out as having been caused phenomina that we are unfamiliar with. They can only be said to have been caused by dark matter if the mathematical concepts that depend upon its exitance to be accurrate are used. It's a catch-22 situation that the scientific community deserves a swift kick in the rear end for accepting much less perpetuating.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Quite the contrary. I myself am an engineer and spent several years working in research at a major university.
I was merely pointing out what you asked for....a reason for the mistrust. Surely it is not the only reason but it is, nonetheless, valid.

Fine, so you were pretending to be someone who has a fundamental misunderstanding etc. etc. Same thing

And yes, the religiou retards who think that science is a tool of the devil because they haven't looked for all of their answers in the book of genesis are out there too, but they are extreme.

But there seems also to be this more widespread feeling that people who work in the sciences are really just mucking about (Bah, fruit flies, how silly!), and should get a haircut and a real job and start contributing to society, like Joe the Plumber or Dave the Mechanic.

"Fine, so you were pretending to be someone who has a fundamental misunderstanding etc. etc. Same thing"

And you, young man, are pretending to have a much fuller understanding than what you do have.
You are still very young and naive to the ways of the world and as such have no stature to place judgement upon anyone.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Cari 0]

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"Ehm...you're going to have to find a better example. Dark matter is easily detectable. The galaxies would rotate at different angular velocities had it not been there. The hard part is finding out what it is... "

Dark matter can NOT be detected. As of now it can only be hypothesized.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060822-dark-matter.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5272226.stm

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/379223


I'm not contesting that dark matter is purely hypothesized at this point, but it looks like astrophysics is getting much closer to proving it does, in fact, exist. The direct "proof" that's been found wouldn't be enough to convince the most staunch of the creationists...but it's still fun to learn about anyway :)

[jakee 1,489]

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And you, young man, are pretending to have a much fuller understanding than what you do have.

Hah, how so? What have I pretended to understand here in this thread?

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You are still very young and naive to the ways of the world and as such have no stature to place judgement upon anyone.

Anyone who seriously holds the view that you put in your first post does not understand what science is. My age or the ways of the world have jack and shit to do with it.




(I'm guessing... NC?)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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And you, young man, are pretending to have a much fuller understanding than what you do have.

Hah, how so? What have I pretended to understand here in this thread?

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You are still very young and naive to the ways of the world and as such have no stature to place judgement upon anyone.

Anyone who seriously holds the view that you put in your first post does not understand what science is. My age or the ways of the world have jack and shit to do with it.




(I'm guessing... NC?)

Until you leave the world of academia, you have not a clue as to how little you actually know. Until you realize how little you know, you can only pretend to have anything more than a superficial understanding.
Your age and lack of real-world experience have everything to do with it.

Your posts in this thread have proven the point of my first reply very well. You fail to try to understand, accept, respect, or otherwise concede that there are actually people out there that don't hold the same viewpoint as yourself. It is this arrogance and intolerance-from both sides-that causes a rift between science and religion.

I will no more accept the existence of dark matter than i will the existence of God, though dark matter does hold the possibilty of not being disproven.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 2,991]

Your one warning. No personal attacks. If you cannot discuss the subject without attacking the poster, do not post here.

[kallend 2,026]

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Kallend, you of all people here should know that the gravitational signature that has been observed can't be ruled out as having been caused phenomina that we are unfamiliar with..

The phenomena have been given names: dark matter and dark energy.

You might have more credibilty around here if you filled out your profile.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Kallend, you of all people here should know that the gravitational signature that has been observed can't be ruled out as having been caused phenomina that we are unfamiliar with..

The phenomena have been given names: dark matter and dark energy.

You might have more credibilty around here if you filled out your profile.

And 'round in circles we go....
Sheesh
The again, maybe that mysterious "dark matter and energy" is God. That would certainly confuse the Hell out of both sides of the issue, not to mention quite a few new recipes for crow.

Filling out a profile is strictly optional. I choose not to. Do you have a problem with somebody practicing their right to anonimity?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,489]

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Your posts in this thread have proven the point of my first reply very well.

My posts in this thread contain 2 things that relate to your point in your first reply, and I've already mentioned what those 2 things are.

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You fail to try to understand, accept, respect, or otherwise concede that there are actually people out there that don't hold the same viewpoint as yourself.

I do understand, accept and concede that there are people out there who don't hold my viewpoint. I'm not sitting here going "lalala I can't hear you you're not there." If you'll notice, the entire thread is about people who don't accept my viewpoint - how could I have started the thread if I don't believe they exist? As for respect, on this point I absolutely do not. Respect has to be earned, and the people who sit around revelling in their own ignorance and dismissing real, useful scientific research as pointless dithering by ivory tower elitists have done nothing to earn it.

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It is this arrogance and intolerance-from both sides-that causes a rift between science and religion.

I've already told you, this is not what my post was about, so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

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I will no more accept the existence of dark matter than i will the existence of God, though dark matter does hold the possibilty of not being disproven.

Why are you talking to me about dark matter? Have I said one word about dark matter? Do you have anything to say that's relevant to the OP?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rasmack 0]

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Kallend, you of all people here should know that the gravitational signature that has been observed can't be ruled out as having been caused phenomina that we are unfamiliar with.

Ehm... gravitational signatures do not arise without gravity. Space does not distort itself. Mass does. If you do not buy the argument about the galaxy rotation curves you may also look at gravitational lensing.

Of course if you are fine with abandoning everything we know about gravitation you are free to dream up alternative explanations but as a scientist I'd say that the existence of dark matter is a very settled question. The nature of it is another matter (heh.. get it? matter...).

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[rasmack 0]

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Why are you talking to me about dark matter? Have I said one word about dark matter? Do you have anything to say that's relevant to the OP?

Sorry, guess that is my fault for calling him on a bad example. (Note to self. Do not try to teach people the working of science on the internet...)

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

You claim you want people to accept your point of view, but your attitude is such that unless they adopt your point of view you call them ignorant.
As you said, respect has to be earned. That includes the respect YOU want.

You want a more direct answer to your original question? Ok, how's this...
Ignorance is not fashionable and never has been. Ignorance is merely being uneducated or unknowing. In that respect we are ALL ignorant of many more things than we are knowledgable.

We all seek answers to the great questions "Why am I here? Where did this all come from?"
For some the simple explanation put forth by religion is sufficient and those people live their lives quite content. Others need a much more factual answer. Thus far in human history none of those has lived their life having found the final answer, and none probably ever will.
Some people try to reconcile between the two, hence "intelligent creationism". Others feel that even though in their own mind religion and science are mutually exclusive they can live accepting that both exist. A small (but very vocal) minority live on the extreme edges of each, refuse to accept the other, and spend their time trying to tear the other down.
When did ignorance become fashionable? It never did.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Science is about furthering our knowledge base. Once we accept things for what they seem to be we stop learning. To just accept the idea of dark matter without occasionally questioning the theories that point to it is irresponsible.
I do not discount it as being fantasy and, in fact, agree that it most likely does exist, but I am not ready to just accept it as the only explanation for our observations.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,489]

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You claim you want people to accept your point of view,

No, I'm asking why some people have a particular different point of view.

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Ignorance is not fashionable and never has been.

But it is. There are people who are proud of never having been to university (not just of being succesful without having been to university, which is completely understandable, but of the simple fact of not having been educated to a certain standard), people who are proud of not knowing anything about science, people who actually look down on those who carry out research for a living - and there are enough of them that some politicians are actively courting their vote by playing dumb.

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We all seek answers to the great questions "Why am I here? Where did this all come from?"
For some the simple explanation put forth by religion is sufficient and those people live their lives quite content. Others need a much more factual answer. Thus far in human history none of those has lived their life having found the final answer, and none probably ever will.
Some people try to reconcile between the two, hence "intelligent creationism". Others feel that even though in their own mind religion and science are mutually exclusive they can live accepting that both exist. A small (but very vocal) minority live on the extreme edges of each, refuse to accept the other, and spend their time trying to tear the other down.

What. Are. You. Talking. About?

It's like you're having a conversation with someone else, because that has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying. It's like you decided you wanted an argument on that topic, so you've got a little narrative running in your head of what you want me to be saying and you're responding to that instead of to me. It's got nothing to do with my point.

Palin was dissing fruit fly research. Very, very useful in agricuture and medical advances, not so much to do with "why are we here"

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

In Reply To
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We all seek answers to the great questions "Why am I here? Where did this all come from?"
For some the simple explanation put forth by religion is sufficient and those people live their lives quite content. Others need a much more factual answer. Thus far in human history none of those has lived their life having found the final answer, and none probably ever will.
Some people try to reconcile between the two, hence "intelligent creationism". Others feel that even though in their own mind religion and science are mutually exclusive they can live accepting that both exist. A small (but very vocal) minority live on the extreme edges of each, refuse to accept the other, and spend their time trying to tear the other down.

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What. Are. You. Talking. About?


It is an answer to your question, "No, I'm asking why some people have a particular different point of view. "

So what if palin doesn't understand the significance of fruit fly research. Do you understand the significance of things she is knowledgable about yet you are uneducated about (ignorant)?

Just becasue someone is proud of somethinmg they do does not mean it is fashionable. Many mass murderers are proud of their accomplishments, but I know of nobody who would call it fashionable.

Get your degree, get the hell away from academia for a while, and you will start to understand things that are confusing to you now.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[BikerBabe 0]

honestly, i think we're off track here. the OP was really talking about this stupid idea that we have in america these days that intelligence and /or education = elitist (or bad).

Newsweek has done a couple awesome articles about this phenomenon over the past couple weeks, first one was about Palin, the second was actually about Leonard Bernstein.

here's one: http://www.newsweek.com/id/164499

more about high culture than science, but it's the same idea: "Today, when high and low culture sneer at each other across a gulf of incomprehension and politically useful ill will, Bernstein seems a glorious freak: the avatar of a democratic cultural dream that elitism and populism can commune, not to cancel each other out but to their mutual benefit."

And the other, about Palin herself and why being "just one of the folks" is NOT necessarily a great thing for this country...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/162396

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[billvon 2,991]

>Ignorance is not fashionable and never has been.

It certainly has been. Some good treatments of this:

Anti-intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter
The Age of American Unreason by Susan Jacoby

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>Ignorance is not fashionable and never has been.

It certainly has been. Some good treatments of this:

Anti-intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter
The Age of American Unreason by Susan Jacoby

Maybe if Jakee read these he might find the answer he seeks.

Since fashion is in the eye of the beholder, I will concede that to some (or even most) ignorance may be "in fashion". I can understand how someone might be proud of not having gone to college or university since there are an extraordinary number of young people coming out of these institutions who actually seem less intelligent than when they went in. Maybe these uneducated folk are proud not of their lack of education, but of their freedom from having been subjected to the very biased and unidirectional molding process that prevails on campus.
Maybe they are just sick and tired of those who have been to college looking down their noses at them.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,489]

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Since fashion is in the eye of the beholder, I will concede that to some (or even most) ignorance may be "in fashion".

You'll concede the definition of fashion? How kind of you.

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Maybe these uneducated folk are proud not of their lack of education, but of their freedom from having been subjected to the very biased and unidirectional molding process that prevails on campus.

What molding process? The only kind of molding process I can think of at university is the kind that leaves you with a much higher tolerance for alcohol.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

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It is an answer to your question, "No, I'm asking why some people have a particular different point of view. "

It is an answer to one very specific type of person that doesn't like science. I made it clear in my first reply to you that this wasn't the type of person, or the type of science, or the type of anti-science that I was referring to, yet you keep droning on and on and on about it as if someone has actually been engaging you in conversation on that topic, which simply hasn't happened.

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So what if palin doesn't understand the significance of fruit fly research.

It's more that she chooses this, out of all the earmarks that she could have referred to, to demonstrate (in her opinion) the absurdity of the congressional earmark system. Just picks some random point of research, thinks "Huh, that sounds silly, I'll rail against that" and off she goes. and the people who are listening just lap it up, because hey, them scientists must be doing useless stuff, 'cos who needs science?

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Many mass murderers are proud of their accomplishments, but I know of nobody who would call it fashionable.

Show me a politician who ever tried to appeal to the mass murderer vote.

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Get your degree, get the hell away from academia for a while, and you will start to understand things that are confusing to you now.

Look at you, Mr Anonymous who wants to keep such a close track of my career. Who the fuck are you then?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,991]

> Maybe these uneducated folk are proud not of their lack of education,
> but of their freedom from having been subjected to the very biased and
> unidirectional molding process that prevails on campus.

I am sure that some uneducated folks think just that, but that's not what either author above was talking about. They were talking about taking pride in placing belief above science, deliberately eschewing complexity for a simpler view of the world, of the sort that can be compressed into TV sound bites.

But in any case, I've gone to three universities so far, and have not noticed any concerted effort to "mold" me in any particular direction. Indeed, the near-chaos pervading the social part of most colleges was quite a change from the more rigid social network of family-church-school that I grew up with - and resulted in many people who learned a lot more about themselves than they would have otherwise.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Actually, i don't give a fuck about your career. You asked a fucking question, i gave you a fucking answer. If you are going to fucking bitch about any fucking answer some fucker gives you, then don't ask the fucking question.
If you don't know why some people don't share your point of view then who the fuck do you think can tell you?

Jesus Fucking H Christ

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.