Russian Nuclear Sub Incident Kills 20 plus

[alw 0]

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There can be no question of the skill, dedication, commitment, and bravery of any man of any nation that serves in the submarine service. His flag of loyalty does not matter.

For the latter three, yes, absolutely. For the first point, no. A person's skill and competence depend on how well he has been trained, drilled and led. All the will in the world can't make up for major deficiencies in those areas. But that's a side issue anyway.

What submarine did you serve on?

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Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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There can be no question of the skill, dedication, commitment, and bravery of any man of any nation that serves in the submarine service. His flag of loyalty does not matter.

For the latter three, yes, absolutely. For the first point, no. A person's skill and competence depend on how well he has been trained, drilled and led. All the will in the world can't make up for major deficiencies in those areas. But that's a side issue anyway.

What submarine did you serve on?

Don't question jakee's knowledge and skills. After all, he reads about it in books all the time.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,489]

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What submarine did you serve on?

Which Russian submarines have you served in? None? Well that makes us even, don't it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[alw 0]

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What submarine did you serve on?

Which Russian submarines have you served in? None? Well that makes us even, don't it?

Even? Not even close.

A submarine of any service is a complex machine. If the crew aboard wasn't qualified and skilled they wouldn't be able to get it out of the port let alone submerge. Comments about skill from someone who is knowledgable is one thing. From someone that doesn't have an understanding of what it takes is just conjecture. Which was my point in asking.

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Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure.

[jakee 1,489]

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A submarine of any service is a complex machine. If the crew aboard wasn't qualified and skilled they wouldn't be able to get it out of the port let alone submerge. Comments about skill from someone who is knowledgable is one thing. From someone that doesn't have an understanding of what it takes is just conjecture.

Conjecture, maybe - more just an abstract point. What's your definition of skill beyond question? Skilled enough to make it work, or skilled enough to respond as quickly and effectively as humanly possible to any emergency situation that may arise? I'm not suggesting that they are being thrown on board without any kind of clue as to how they're supposed to make the boat work - I would question if they've been trained and drilled and drilled and drilled and supported by the military hierarchy in the same way that you would expect as a product of the USN.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[alw 0]

And my point is that it is presumptuous to suggest that Russian Sailors are any less qualified than US Sailors. I've been up against these guys and they are good. If they weren't you would never have heard about this incident - they'd all be dead.

Think of it like a skydiver - with a little knowledge a skydiver is dangerous and has a very short shelf life. You only get to be lucky a few times. To survive a mal you have to do the right thing in the proper time span.

All of our shipmates on Thresher and Scorpion were highly qualified. It's a dangerous job. The events overtook their ability to deal with them but it wasn't because they lacked the skill.

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Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure.

[jakee 1,489]

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And my point is that it is presumptuous to suggest that Russian Sailors are any less qualified than US Sailors. I've been up against these guys and they are good. If they weren't you would never have heard about this incident - they'd all be dead.

The difficulties that the russian forces hav been facing over the last few decades have been well documented. Incidents of sailors actually stealing vital equipment from nuclear submarines (in one case wire from the reactor controls that put the boat out of service) because they simply hadn't been payed for so long are numerous. I believe it would be naive to think that these difficulties had not, in some way, affected the quality of the training and continuous drilling that russian submariners currently recieve.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 800]

Like not being trained in the importance of donning a breathing apparatus.
THAT cost them lives in this case.

Even on the surface ships, the breathing apparatus was critical to survival when fire controls systems were activated. We had seconds to live.

[alw 0]

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Like not being trained in the importance of donning a breathing apparatus.
THAT cost them lives in this case.

Even on the surface ships, the breathing apparatus was critical to survival when fire controls systems were activated. We had seconds to live.

Did you ever have to evacuate a JP5 pump room on a Newport Class LST? How many EAB manifolds in the area effected? How manynon-sub qualified test personel were in that area? Was it Halon/Freon/CO2?

There are just too many questions to lay it off on something like lack of familiarity with EAB's

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Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure.

[normiss 800]

Mare accurately lack OF from everything I'm reading.
It sounds like a sea trials cruise, add civilians without proper gear.
Halon is all I was involved with.

[Skyrad 0]

I for one won't be crying into my cornflakes for these guys. it won't be long before we see Russia as the threat to west that it really is. Make no mistake Russia is a real threat to world peace. They were the enemy and they will be again.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Amazon 7]

And a damn fine enemy they made...wearin uniforms and stuff and all that proper military struttin.....not like these other guys and their silly caves and inshalla every other word

[alw 0]

da tovarish

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Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure.

[labrys 0]

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it's the crumbling infrastructure of entire Russian military (and government) that make them unfit to operate nuclear submarines.

What difference does it make that this was a nuke? The accident is unrelated and the mention of the propulsion system is merely news spin.

Honestly, jakee. Here in the States there are a HUGE number of military training and exercise deaths that are not reported beyond a blurb in the local newspaper and a paragraph read in the Plan of the Day.

I spent my Navy career working in maintenance billets aboard tenders and shore facilties for both destroyers and submarines. I've seen my share of gaffers tape and bubble gum where it had no business.

Leave the mockery for now. Have a moments of silence, if not respect, for the seamen who lost their lives regardless of the Navy they served.

Owned by Remi #?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

HMS Sidon
HMS Artemis

I guess the Brits have their own problems with shoddy construction, maintenance, and training.

Or maybe it is just the nature of the business for accidents to happen once in a while regardless of the precautions taken.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,489]

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What difference does it make that this was a nuke?

It makes a difference in the scale of the disaster that is possible with nuclear vessels versus diesel-electric. Also the fact that they can't stop their sailors stealing vast amounts of vital equipment from their subs... that makes a difference.

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Leave the mockery for now.

I've not mocked anyone, and any criticism has been aimed at much higher levels than the sailors and civvies aboard that boat.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

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HMS Sidon
HMS Artemis

Both built during WW2 and sunk in 1955 and 1971? Honestly? Yeah, that's really relevant to today's standards.

((I'll give you this for free, you should be able to find some much more recent RN mishaps than that!)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[labrys 0]

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/British_Submarine_Accident_Caused_By_Oxygen_Creating_Device_999.html

Okay... I'll go with this example of why the RN is unqualified to field nuclear submarines:

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Britain's Royal Navy was investigating Thursday how an air-purification system malfunctioned and killed two sailors on one of its nuclear submarines during war games in the Arctic with the US Navy.

Owned by Remi #?

[jakee 1,489]

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Okay... I'll go with this example of why the RN is unqualified to field nuclear submarines:

Much better googling skills, that one is actually current (I'm pretty sure there was one that ran aground coming into Faslane a few years ago as well).

However, if you look at the full sentance of mine that you quoted, I was talking about the crumbling infrastructure of the Rusian Navy. Show me where English sailors have been stealing weapons systems, electrics from reactor controls and anything that wasn't unscrewable from the UK submarine fleet because they hadn't been paid for several months, then you might just have a point.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nerdgirl 0]

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Or maybe it is just the nature of the business for accidents to happen once in a while regardless of the precautions taken.

Whether you knew it or not ... yes, there is one school of thought that states asserts exactly that. For tightly coupled systems of sophisticated technologies, normal accidents theory states that accidents will happen. It was originally developed to explain the Three Mile Island disaster and has subsequently been applied to Space Shuttle Challenger and Columbia disasters, commerical aviation disasters, the chemical industry, marine transport, and other high-risk, high-technology endeavors.

The main alternative is high reliability theory.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Or maybe it is just the nature of the business for accidents to happen once in a while regardless of the precautions taken.

Whether you knew it or not ... yes, there is one school of thought that states asserts exactly that. For tightly coupled systems of sophisticated technologies, normal accidents theory states that accidents will happen. It was originally developed to explain the Three Mile Island disaster and has subsequently been applied to Space Shuttle Challenger and Columbia disasters, commerical aviation disasters, the chemical industry, marine transport, and other high-risk, high-technology endeavors.

The main alternative is high reliability theory.

VR/Marg

Yes, I have heard of that.
Part of my job has always been to balance safety, reliability, and cost. The only way to make something 100% safe is to not make it at all.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Since the main posters in this thread seem to have reached a somewhat calm state I propose we all do as labrys suggested and give these sailors their due respect. May they rest in peace.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Or maybe it is just the nature of the business for accidents to happen once in a while regardless of the precautions taken.

Whether you knew it or not ... yes, there is one school of thought that states asserts exactly that. For tightly coupled systems of sophisticated technologies, normal accidents theory states that accidents will happen. It was originally developed to explain the Three Mile Island disaster and has subsequently been applied to Space Shuttle Challenger and Columbia disasters, commerical aviation disasters, the chemical industry, marine transport, and other high-risk, high-technology endeavors.

The main alternative is high reliability theory.

Yes, I have heard of that.
Part of my job has always been to balance safety, reliability, and cost. The only way to make something 100% safe is to not make it at all.

High reliability theory, like that employed by USN Nuclear submariners (which is the classic case), does maintain that with proper training, management, & safety culture 100% reliability can be achieved.

I tend to be of the 'normal accidents' school of thought, but 'true believers' in HRT assert 100% safety is possible.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I tend to be of the 'normal accidents' school of thought, but 'true believers' in HRT assert 100% safety is possible.

I feel the same way. On paper it looks good, but in the real world 100% reliablity is impossible.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kallend 2,027]

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I tend to be of the 'normal accidents' school of thought, but 'true believers' in HRT assert 100% safety is possible.

I feel the same way. On paper it looks good, but in the real world 100% reliablity is impossible.

Comparison of risk with what we accept when skydiving is instructive.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.