Good news for Christians from the world of science

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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At this stage I'm not questioning because of your opinion, but because it's funny watching you squirm about and get so hot and bothered. BTW, here's a tip: trying to take the moral high ground while insulting someone - really not that impressive.

Well, it is good to see you have finally let go of you obsession with me.
If anyone is "squirming", that would be you. I have seen a thousand schoolboys like you in my life, you are no different than the rest, so it takes more than what you are capable of dishing out over the 'net to get me very upset. (Your idea that a skydiving forum can somehow be held to the same standards of accuracy as a scientific forum is quite entertaining, though.)
As far as taking "the moral high ground" while insulting someone...your posts in that regard are no different than my own.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,490]

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Your idea that a skydiving forum can somehow be held to the same standards of accuracy as a scientific forum is quite entertaining, though.

I've never been on a science forum. I have no idea how they might do things. I'm also not holding the forum itself to any standard of accuracy. I'm just pointing out where I think you're talking rubbish and getting yourself tied up in contradictions. For some reason you seem to really, really not like that (from anyone, not just me) - or is there some other reason that you're still throwing insults around?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Your idea that a skydiving forum can somehow be held to the same standards of accuracy as a scientific forum is quite entertaining, though.

I've never been on a science forum. I have no idea how they might do things. I'm also not holding the forum itself to any standard of accuracy. I'm just pointing out where I think you're talking rubbish and getting yourself tied up in contradictions. For some reason you seem to really, really not like that (from anyone, not just me) - or is there some other reason that you're still throwing insults around?

Wow. I think you really do believe all the BS you post.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[maadmax 0]

Read it. Interesting book, good stories; but not something to be read as literal truth. Good at providing some lessons, preposterously bad as a source for practical information.

[philh 0]

"For me it is much more logical to pin the singularity that started this whole experience on an existing God than the god of chance occurrence"

why pin it in on any kind of god?

You appearntly conclude god exists to start But more logical thinking doesnt start with its conclusion.

How do you know you "profound pyschologicla coping skills" came from god?

[pirana 0]

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Read it. Interesting book, good stories; but not something to be read as literal truth. Good at providing some lessons, preposterously bad as a source for practical information.

For me, the Bibles main purpose is for individual edificaiton, growth, and providing an escape from sinful mediocrity. My life is a validation of that. Beyond that, its meaning becomes shrouded in controversy.

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[maadmax 0]

-- why pin it in on any kind of god?

I find it a necessary first step in trying to make some kind of sense out of the chaos.

[jakee 1,490]

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---How do you know you "profound pyschologicla coping skills" came from god?

They came from the application of Bible Doctrine to my personally constructed reality. Bible Doctrine came from God through the inspired writings of those who knew Him.

There are many people who would ascribe similar benefits to pretty much every religious book out there.I don't see how those experiences can count as evidence for any particular god.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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-- why pin it in on any kind of god?

I find it a necessary first step in trying to make some kind of sense out of the chaos.

--You appearntly conclude god exists to start But more logical thinking doesnt start with its conclusion

I might agree with your logic, but not your order of events. The universe is the conclusion, God or chance occurrence is the reason. But since God uses chance occurrence to accomplish much of His creations, "chance occurrence" is not the most simplified factor when one tries to dissect out the originator & purpose of life.

[kallend 2,027]

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Read it. Interesting book, good stories; but not something to be read as literal truth. Good at providing some lessons, preposterously bad as a source for practical information.

For me, the Bibles main purpose is for individual edificaiton, growth, and providing an escape from sinful mediocrity. My life is a validation of that. Beyond that, its meaning becomes shrouded in controversy.

......

[maadmax 0]

--There are many people who would ascribe similar benefits to pretty much every religious book out there.I don't see how those experiences can count as evidence for any particular god.

[maadmax 0]

--I've seen lots of people on the street who claim to know God personally and claim to have conversations with him, but I'll be damned if I use what they say to pattern my life.
Heck, my dog makes more sense and all she does is bark, belch, and occasionally groan.

[maadmax 0]

Since only the tree of knowledge was prohibited, this must mean that God approves consumption of marijuana, cocaine, and opium.

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
-- Genesis 2: 9, 16-17 (KJV)

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Since only the tree of knowledge was prohibited, this must mean that God approves consumption of marijuana, cocaine, and opium.

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
-- Genesis 2: 9, 16-17 (KJV)

Who's to say, you may be right. Or those plants may have resulted from the process of genetic mutation and natural selection of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil over time. I have not seen much good come from those plants in terms of spiritual/personal growth.



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[Coreece 190]

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Since only the tree of knowledge was prohibited, this must mean that God approves consumption of marijuana, cocaine, and opium.

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
-- Genesis 2: 9, 16-17 (KJV)

If you want to eat marijuana, cocaine, and opium, you are free to do so...I just wouldn't recommend it....poppy seeds taste pretty good though.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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--I've seen lots of people on the street who claim to know God personally and claim to have conversations with him, but I'll be damned if I use what they say to pattern my life.
Heck, my dog makes more sense and all she does is bark, belch, and occasionally groan.

You will get no argument from me. Animals have always seemed more in touch with reality than most people I have encountered. Animals don't seem to be burdened with our curse of discerning good from evil.

[jakee 1,490]

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--There are many people who would ascribe similar benefits to pretty much every religious book out there.I don't see how those experiences can count as evidence for any particular god.

I examine the actions and lives of people who say they have experienced God. If they are no different from anyone else, then yes you are correct.

But if their life demonstrates a transforming power, I sit up and take notice.

[maadmax 0]

You misunderstand. I'm saying that if you look for it, you could find the same transformations in people who follow any religious doctrine. That's evidence that belief can change people's lives, not that the object of that belief actually exists.

[maadmax 0]

I have found that "curse" to not be a burden at all. I consider it to be a good thing to be able to distinguish good from evil.

[GravityGirl 0]

>>That depends on what you call faith. If you define faith as the acceptance of a statement as true without evidence for it, or in the face of evidence against it, then yes, I'd say that's pretty stupid.
<<

Do you have faith in the "Theory of Flight"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[JackC 0]

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>>That depends on what you call faith. If you define faith as the acceptance of a statement as true without evidence for it, or in the face of evidence against it, then yes, I'd say that's pretty stupid.
<<

Do you have faith in the "Theory of Flight"?

To know requires proof.
To believe requires evidence.
To have faith requires neither.

Birds are known for their ability to fly. Ergo we "know" that flying is possible because we have proof in the form of flying birds.

If you apply Newton's second law to fluid motion, add some fluid stress terms, you should end up with the Navier-Stokes equations. These equations describles fluid flow and are the basis for the Computational Fluid Dynamics software that can be used to predict the aerodynamics of aircraft, trains, cars and even parachutes to spectacular accuracy. We "know" that the Navier-Stokes theory is useful because it accurately predicts real life situations. We "believe" the Navier-Stokes equations to be correct because the accuracy of the theory is evidence that it is correct.

So I have both proof and evidence relating to the theory of flight. The only time I would need faith is if I were too lazy to look for and understand the evidence. Luckily, I'm not that lazy. I've solved the Navier-Stokes equations and related the results to experiments that I also performed. So no, I don't have faith in the theory of flight, I don't need it.

[GravityGirl 0]

so why is it not the law of flight? Is it more credible because we have enough intellectuals and/or pseudo-intellectuals that know and believe? Some Christians might argue that they know and beleive things about God based on their experience and thousands of years of documented proof. If man wipes out all of the birds in existance, will we still have knowledge that They flew? Or will all of the writings and pictures be discredited by nay Sayers demanding more proof from the people who have faith in the legends of these flying creatures?

I would love to stay on here and play a bit more, but I have a business to run, an exam to study for and a child to care for. What I'm trying to say is I'm too lazy to get any more involved in silly debates that serve no purpose other than to fuel the ego with the saticfaction of being either educated or enlightened. At the end of the day we all rely on each other for the unique talents that we have to offer our community be they based on faith or function.

So keep studying. Keep the faith.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[JackC 0]

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so why is it not the law of flight?

That's to do with the subtleties of scientific language. People erroneously think that the progression of scientific knowledge goes from hypothesis, to theory, to law. It doesn't work like that. A physical law is merely a mathematical statement of fact. Newton's Law of Gravity doesn't give you any help in understanding what causes gravity, it merely states the relationship between mass and force. A theory must contain information as to why something happens. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity crucially explains why mass is related to gravitational force. To be called "theory" is the highest status that any physical model can attain. Physical Laws are relatively trivial things by comparison.

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Is it more credible because we have enough intellectuals and/or pseudo-intellectuals that know and believe?

Not at all. Argumentum ad populum is not a valid reason to believe anything. Physical theories do not gain status by being popular, they gain status by withstanding repeated and detailed scrutiny.

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Some Christians might argue that they know and beleive things about God based on their experience and thousands of years of documented proof.

And they'd be wrong. The Bible is no more proof of God than Harry Potter is proof of wizards. The fact that something is written in a book in no way proves that it is true.

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If man wipes out all of the birds in existance, will we still have knowledge that They flew? Or will all of the writings and pictures be discredited by nay Sayers demanding more proof from the people who have faith in the legends of these flying creatures?

I would imagine that some people would try, but as long as there exists a flying thing (paper plane, insect, cloud) it would take a pretty hardcore naysayer to deny that flight is possible.

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So keep studying. Keep the faith.

Studying is good but I'll try and avoid faith thanks. The 45 degree rule is perpetuated by faith.

[GravityGirl 0]

>>The 45 degree rule is perpetuated by faith. <<

But you know better because of your extensive experience in the field? Or your hours of research here on dz.com? Not disagreeing per se.... just asking.

How about love? Do you have faith that it exists? Because it is certainly not logical. Do we know it exsists? Can we prove it exists? Do you have faith that it exsists?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[JackC 0]

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>>The 45 degree rule is perpetuated by faith. <<

But you know better because of your extensive experience in the field? Or your hours of research here on dz.com? Not disagreeing per se.... just asking.

Well it has been discussed on here to death but you've only got to stick you head out of a plane to know it doesn't work. I remember looking out one time as people exited and you could look down all of the groups from first to last and they were all in a nice neat line, over 45 degrees from the plane. You hit 45 degrees about 0.2 seconds after exit. I think someone (Billvon or Quade maybe?) posted a video of it.

The fact is that people tell other people that the 45 degree works and because it comes from a position of "authority", they don't question it even though the evidence contradicts it. That's pretty much the definition of faith.

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How about love? Do you have faith that it exists? Because it is certainly not logical. Do we know it exsists? Can we prove it exists? Do you have faith that it exsists?

Well I've felt it so I know there is a particular psychological condition or brain chemistry that people call love. So why would I need faith when I have evidence? If I was incapable of feeling it and had never whitnessed anyone acting out of love, I might need a bit of faith to think it actually exists but that's not the case now is it?

Actually love isn't a good example. Now spirituality, or spiritual truth or whatever you guys call it, I have no idea what that is and if I were to try to believe in it, it would require more faith than I could possibly muster.