gun ownership in the USA

[Amazon 7]

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By the way, do you usually teach young kids how to use chainsaws, welders and power drillers, because those are also tools. Maybe they are not as "fun" to use as guns.

When the age is appropriate... yes they need to be taught the proper use of those tools. My son is very adept at the use of a chainsaw...knows how to use an arc welder as well as mig and knows how to use most drills saws...sanders etc. He was also taught that he could have a better carreer if he kept the usage of those as a hobby and went on to college. I learned at an early age as well since our family owned and restored boats and cars. Oh did I mention.. he killed his first deer at the age of 12

[Botellines 0]

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And you STILL haven't proven that the tool causes the crime.

Fail.

Of course not, it is not the tools that causes the crime, it is the people using those tools that causes the crime.

And before you propose banning knives, sticks and cars, i propose you to allow explosives like TNT, hand granades, anti-personel mines, etc on the hands of law abiden citizens.

Hey, if it is a matter of personal responsability, and we obviously agree that it is not the tool but the person i don´t see why john rich can not put a mine field on his backyard. And besides, the columbine shooting would have not happened, it would have been the columbine demolition.

So why do you want to draw the line between guns and explosives and not between knives and guns?

[Ron 10]

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Of course not, it is not the tools that causes the crime, it is the people using those tools that causes the crime.

And if criminals can still get them after something is banned (think drugs)...Then what possible good is it to prevent a citizen from legally owning something?

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Hey, if it is a matter of personal responsability, and we obviously agree that it is not the tool but the person i don´t see why john rich can not put a mine field on his backyard.

Mines are indiscriminate killers. A gun takes active participation.

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So why do you want to draw the line between guns and explosives and not between knives and guns?

Explosives are fine for people to own IMO. *I* don't see much reason to own them, but others do not see the reason to jump out of perfectly good airplanes.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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It is not that i don´t understand, it is that you fail to convince me otherwise. There is a big diference... In first place, we neither hate nor fear guns. We regard them as a tool, and a tool that suceds at doing what is designed to do which is to kill people. No more and no less. In the other hand it seems many of you consider guns more a toy than a tool. We can see prove of this on most of John Richs´s posts.

Am I supposed to feel guilty for using firearms in sporting pursuits, instead of using them to kill people?

You epitomize a true gun-o-phobe. You see guns with one single-minded purpose; to kill. You can't even imagine them being used for sporting purposes that don't involve killing, like target shooting competitions. You can't even seem to acknowledge those as legitimate pursuits. And even the sport of hunting, while it involves killing, is approved by the states and serves serious game management purposes, as well as providing tons of revenue for conservation efforts.

But no, none of that counts to you. Guns are bad. Period.

And this is what is seen as a "reasonable" position by gun-o-phobes?

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By the way, do you usually teach young kids how to use chainsaws, welders and power drillers, because those are also tools. Maybe they are not as "fun" to use as guns.

Why yes, indeed, we do teach them those things when they are mature enough. Because there is no better teacher than a parent concerned about a child's safety. Those lessons carry over into adulthood, which they then pass on again to the next generation.

If we followed your model for child upbringing, we would have a generation of ignorant adults who don't know how to use those tools, nor how to do it safely.

And as a matter of fact, cutting huge logs with a chainsaw, welding two pieces of metal together with electricity, or drilling holes in things, is fun. You ought to try it sometime.

[JohnRich 4]

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Hey, if it is a matter of personal responsability, and we obviously agree that it is not the tool but the person i don´t see why john rich can not put a mine field on his backyard.

There's another example of your unreasonable position. If you can't see the difference between a firearm and a minefield, then your using illogical gun-o-phobe logic again.

A gun is only capable of killing something if a person points it at them and consciously pulls the trigger.

A minefield indiscriminately kills anything that walks into it, as well as anything that happens to be nearby, without any conscious thought whatsoever.

But to you, they're equal. This is gun-o-phobe "logic".

[normiss 806]

I think they know this and can understand that.
They simply choose to throw a straw man out there to wind the legal gun advocates up.
Simple entertainment for them.
Sad really.

[christelsabine 1]

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Why yes, indeed, we do teach them those things when they are mature enough. Because there is no better teacher than a parent concerned about a child's safety. Those lessons carry over into adulthood, which they then pass on again to the next generation.

If we followed your model for child upbringing, we would have a generation of ignorant adults who don't know how to use those tools, nor how to do it safely.
....

Oh Jesus, JohnRich, you are too funny - bwahahahaha

What kind of "....lessons carry over into adulthood ..." led to the permanent shootings you guys have over there? Schools, malls ..... kids killing themselves or other kids ... you name it.

What did parents of those shooters "pass on again to next generation..." ??? See above.

Nebulized comes to mind.

Thanks God we do not need to follow "your model", our society is polite enough, even w/o weapons.

After having a wonderful hunting weekend on birds, rabbits etc., I just cleaned my tools, put them back into the safe and ... until next event on Dec. 22, they're forgotten.

No phobia around here. Guns do not play any important role in my life. It they are of importance to you, it's your hobby. Your arguments just sound that ridiculous, it'd be funny but, it's just poor.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 2,027]

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And someday, you may even find proof that it's the presence of the guns causing the crime and not the criminals.

After all, it's the presence of guns, knives and sticks over in the UK that's causing all their crime, right?

Compared the UK's homicide stats against the US's recently?

Criminals with guns are much more of a problem than criminals armed with fresh fruit.

Wow - fresh fruit causes crime now???

Got no culture, eh?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w&feature=related

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kbordson 8]

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But... ultimately I have to admit that you will never "get it" and arguing with you about this is pointless. You do not understand and trying to explain it over the internet to someone in a completely different culture. It's a hard sell. If you grew up in this environment, if you lived here, if you could see with my eyes.... you might be able to understand better. Likewise if I lived in a country that feared and hated firearms, I might have a different opinion of them as well.

You are way off the mark here. It is not that i don´t understand, it is that you fail to convince me otherwise. There is a big diference.
It is not a cultural problem either, first of all, there is many american that think like me. Besides, i know your culture pretty well, i have lived in the U.S, been engaged for many years to an american woman, i have even shooted a gun while living there. Somehow i think that you have much less experience about my culture than i have about yours.
In first place, we neither hate nor fear guns. We regard them as a tool, and a tool that suceds at doing what is designed to do which is to kill people. No more and no less. In the other hand it seems many of you consider guns more a toy than a tool. We can see prove of this on most of John Richs´s posts.

By the way, do you usually teach young kids how to use chainsaws, welders and power drillers, because those are also tools. Maybe they are not as "fun" to use as guns.

You claim to "know our culture pretty well" - which one? Big city in California? Rural Texas? Midwest - Wisconsin? New England? So you lived here and even shot a gun... So... by your logic, having been an exchange student in Germany and having visited a Concentration camp, I understand about their views on WWII?! No. I would NEVER be so vain to state that. . That doesn't give my a proper "understanding" - I got a "window" into the life. But I did not begin to assume that that I "knew their culture pretty well." I was still an outsider. Just as you were. OK, so you were engaged to an American woman... does having a relationship with ONE individual of nation give you special insight to all the opinions in that that country?

Maybe you're not afraid of the guns, but you ARE afraid of the people that chose to own them. And maybe that might sit poorly with you... hit a soft spot... cuz a big strong "any Nationality" man can't be scared of anything.... but I believe you are.

You don't "get it." There is nothing wrong with that. I don't get homosexuality, but I don't in anyway try to inhibit the freedoms of those that do. There's nothing wrong with saying "that isn't for me" - but there IS something wrong with then trying to attack others freedoms and liberties because of your fears.

And... since you asked... I don't actually HAVE any children. But my husband did try to teach his son how to use a lathe and a mill and other tools when he was younger. And my cousins that lived on the farms did know how to use the tractors, the chainsaws, and the other machinery. So... the answer to your final question would be "yes."

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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By the way, do you usually teach young kids how to use chainsaws, welders and power drillers, because those are also tools. Maybe they are not as "fun" to use as guns.

I was taught to shoot at 9, weld at 9, drill press at 8, chainsaw at 10, tractor at 10.
They are all tools with specific jobs that need to be done. When you live in the middle of nowhere, you learn these jobs at a young age.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kbordson 8]

And there are other reasons to own firearms other than as the "tool of death"

There is a big collection of those that enjoy competition shooting. It's quite challenging to sit behind the 1000yd line and try to control your breathing and dial the rounds nicely to the X.

There are many that find the mechanics of them to be very intriguing. As some find old style clock fascinating. Others are amazed by the mechanism of the Gatling Gun

Others yet just like the collection - why do some people have hundred of beanie babies? I have no clue... but they bring them happiness. Others like collecting something that might at some point be a useful tool. Dakota Arms has BEAUTIFUL firearms! Why would that be any less desirable than a beanie baby?!

And of course there's the "tool of death" reason that those that don't respect the above reasons always claim is the ONLY reason for wanting a gun.

[Ion01 2]

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Why yes, indeed, we do teach them those things when they are mature enough. Because there is no better teacher than a parent concerned about a child's safety. Those lessons carry over into adulthood, which they then pass on again to the next generation.

If we followed your model for child upbringing, we would have a generation of ignorant adults who don't know how to use those tools, nor how to do it safely.
....

Oh Jesus, JohnRich, you are too funny - bwahahahaha

What kind of "....lessons carry over into adulthood ..." led to the permanent shootings you guys have over there? Schools, malls ..... kids killing themselves or other kids ... you name it.

What did parents of those shooters "pass on again to next generation..." ??? See above.

Nebulized comes to mind.

Thanks God we do not need to follow "your model", our society is polite enough, even w/o weapons.

After having a wonderful hunting weekend on birds, rabbits etc., I just cleaned my tools, put them back into the safe and ... until next event on Dec. 22, they're forgotten.

No phobia around here. Guns do not play any important role in my life. It they are of importance to you, it's your hobby. Your arguments just sound that ridiculous, it'd be funny but, it's just poor.

What are you trying to say?

The reason those kids did what they did is mostly because their parents didn't care!! They were angery with society and had thier parents been involved in thier lives and cared they would have prevented these incidents! The problem is parents aren't parents much anymore. they expect the schools to teach thier children right from wrong and to be the guiding influence in thier lives. School is there to teach the sciences, language, math, arts, ect. but cannot replace the guidance and influence of a parent.

[christelsabine 1]

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Why yes, indeed, we do teach them those things when they are mature enough. Because there is no better teacher than a parent concerned about a child's safety. Those lessons carry over into adulthood, which they then pass on again to the next generation.

If we followed your model for child upbringing, we would have a generation of ignorant adults who don't know how to use those tools, nor how to do it safely.
....

Oh Jesus, JohnRich, you are too funny - bwahahahaha

What kind of "....lessons carry over into adulthood ..." led to the permanent shootings you guys have over there? Schools, malls ..... kids killing themselves or other kids ... you name it.

What did parents of those shooters "pass on again to next generation..." ??? See above.

Nebulized comes to mind.

Thanks God we do not need to follow "your model", our society is polite enough, even w/o weapons.

After having a wonderful hunting weekend on birds, rabbits etc., I just cleaned my tools, put them back into the safe and ... until next event on Dec. 22, they're forgotten.

No phobia around here. Guns do not play any important role in my life. It they are of importance to you, it's your hobby. Your arguments just sound that ridiculous, it'd be funny but, it's just poor.

What are you trying to say?

The reason those kids did what they did is mostly because their parents didn't care!! They were angery with society and had thier parents been involved in thier lives and cared they would have prevented these incidents! The problem is parents aren't parents much anymore. they expect the schools to teach thier children right from wrong and to be the guiding influence in thier lives. School is there to teach the sciences, language, math, arts, ect. but cannot replace the guidance and influence of a parent.

We're not discussing about schools' commitments, it's JohnRich and his argument of "... no better teacher than a parent ..." which obviously, completely failed in practice.

Following now his idea of "... child upbringing, we ... (and your reply on that) ... "would have a generation of killers .... "

No, thank you.

You better should've come to an agreement with JohnRich before posting.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[happythoughts 0]

interesting pic and quote

A quote from Mumbai

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But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

[kbordson 8]

What I think they're BOTH trying to say is that parents should spend more time teaching their children... PARENTS should. Not schools. And one of the lessons that should be included is firearm safety.




- but inactive parenting is a whole different topic.

[FallingOsh 0]

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We're not discussing about schools' commitments, it's JohnRich and his argument of "... no better teacher than a parent ..." which obviously, completely failed in practice.

Following now his idea of "... child upbringing, we ... (and your reply on that) ... "would have a generation of killers .... "

No, thank you.

You better should've come to an agreement with JohnRich before posting.

Who teaches and takes care of your kids over there?

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Stay positive and love your life.

[JohnRich 4]

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Oh Jesus, JohnRich, you are too funny - bwahahahaha

Another fine example of gun-o-phobe illogic - thinking that derisive laughter is a good counter-argument.

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What kind of "....lessons carry over into adulthood ..." led to the permanent shootings you guys have over there? Schools, malls ..... kids killing themselves or other kids ...

Facts beat derisive laughter, hands down. Here's a report that shows a few of them for you.

Department of Justice
National Institute of Justice
Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention
NCJ-143454, August 1995

"Urban Delinquency and Substance Abuse"

This study did annual interviews of boys and girls of various ages from a random selection of 20,000 households. The purpose was to identify crucial factors that lead children into delinquency and crime.

Here is one interesting finding they came up with concerning the relationship between guns and delinquency.

Figure 13: Relationship between type of gun owned and percent committing street, drug and gun crimes.

Illegal gun -  

Street crimes = 74%

Drug use       = 41%

Gun crimes    = 21%


No gun -  

Street crimes = 24%

Drug use       = 15%

Gun crimes    =  1%


Legal Gun -  

Street crimes = 14%

Drug use       = 13%

Gun crimes    =  0%

Quote: "The socialization into gun ownership is also vastly different for legal and illegal gunowners. Those who own legal guns have fathers who own guns for sport and hunting. On the other hand, those who own illegal guns have friends who own illegal guns and are far more likely to be gang members. For legal gunowners, socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it appears to take place 'on the street'."

"Boys who own legal firearms have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns." End quote.

So, despite your derisive laughter, this report shows that if you teach your son the shooting sports, there is a much greater chance that he will turn out to be a law-abiding responsible citizen! Much more so than just leaving them ignorant about guns and letting them learn on the street with kids their own age.

Source: http://www.ncjrs.gov/app/Search/Abstracts.aspx?id=143454
Click "Document URL: PDF" for the full report.

[Botellines 0]

You implied that i don´t get your point because of a lack of understanding of your culture rather than because your arguments are not strong enough. I let you know that i am not as foreign to your culture as you may think, maybe the choice of words were not the best, but in any case the point was made. About your experiences as an exchange student... most american exchange students i have ever met much prefered to hang out with other american exchange students rather than with the locals. If that was your case, no wonder you don´t have a proper understanding of their culture.
Besides what do you have to say about those americans that think like me regarding guns. Is it also a lack of understanding of their own culture?

And no, i am neither afraid of gun nor people with guns. Thanks for the psicotherapy. I do have my share of fears, so it is not a "macho" thing, but growing up away from guns give me neither love nor hate for them.

I am not attacking your liberties, i could not care less wether you pack heat or not. It will not affect me with an ocean between us and i am willing to take the risk whenever i go to your country. If you read my first post i wasn´t commenting about wether you should be allowed to carry or not, but about the effects of gun proliferation in the society. Too bad people get their panties in a wad whenever someone mention "gun".

As you said, you can do a lot of things with guns, unfortunately some people seems to forget what they were designed for originally.

You just don´t think that you guys have a problem with crime and it is related to guns, fair enough. If you don´t mind a mass shooting everyonce in a while, i can see your point about letting things stay the way they are.

To John, mnealtx, etc.
I admit the anti-personel mine example was not a good one, but still what about grenades and explosives? should they be avalaible to all the law abiden citizens? If we talk about personal responsability what about dual use items, like opiates and in general items that can be used for good deeds as well as bad deeds?

To Amazon and Belgian_draft,
Good for you for teaching your kids or having been taught how to use other tools. I think that in your culture, by many people, guns are regarded as toys more than tools, and many people are taugh how to use only one tool.

[Botellines 0]

Hi christel!!!

Nice to see you around.
I am afraid there are too many "gun nuts" in this thread. Maybe we should leave them with their guns and let evolution do the rest.

Cheers

[kbordson 8]

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You implied that i don´t get your point because of a lack of understanding of your culture rather than because your arguments are not strong enough. I let you know that i am not as foreign to your culture as you may think, maybe the choice of words were not the best, but in any case the point was made. About your experiences as an exchange student... most american exchange students i have ever met much prefered to hang out with other american exchange students rather than with the locals. If that was your case, no wonder you don´t have a proper understanding of their culture.

(Actually... no, I hung out with the German kids. But... thanks for your assumptions)

Besides what do you have to say about those Americans that think like me regarding guns. Is it also a lack of understanding of their own culture?

Did you even read about how I stated that the "culture" here is varied? How I asked specifically what about what your "American experience" was? Or was that part not read? The lifestyle in NYC is VERY different from those on a ranch in Montana. To assume that you "know" the American culture is foolish

And no, i am neither afraid of gun nor people with guns. Thanks for the psicotherapy. I do have my share of fears, so it is not a "macho" thing, but growing up away from guns give me neither love nor hate for them.

I am not attacking your liberties, i could not care less wether you pack heat or not. It will not affect me with an ocean between us and i am willing to take the risk whenever i go to your country. If you read my first post i wasn´t commenting about wether you should be allowed to carry or not, but about the effects of gun proliferation in the society. Too bad people get their panties in a wad whenever someone mention "gun".

I can assure you, my panties are not in a wad. All of my post have been low key about how you have your background and I have mine. Completely willing to admit that firearms aren't for everyone.

As you said, you can do a lot of things with guns, unfortunately some people seems to forget what they were designed for originally.
So... shall we abandon space travel as missles were initially INTENDED to be a weapon - intial discovery was by the Chinese, I know, but they didn't chose to do anything with that... the first intended use was in missles

You just don´t think that you guys have a problem with crime and it is related to guns, fair enough. If you don´t mind a mass shooting everyonce in a while, i can see your point about letting things stay the way they are.
I have never said that I "don't mind" murder. Murder is illegal - whether guns, knives, or even planes are used. The mechanism of injury is secondary to the psychological break that lead to the murder to begin with

To John, mnealtx, etc.
I admit the anti-personel mine example was not a good one, but still what about grenades and explosives? should they be avalaible to all the law abiden citizens? If we talk about personal responsability what about dual use items, like opiates and in general items that can be used for good deeds as well as bad deeds?

To Amazon and Belgian_draft,
Good for you for teaching your kids or having been taught how to use other tools. I think that in your culture, by many people, guns are regarded as toys more than tools, and many people are taugh how to use only one tool. I think that opinion is rather bigoted. You seem to show a very negative opinion about Americans with weapons.

[Ron 10]

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I am afraid there are too many "gun nuts" in this thread. Maybe we should leave them with their guns and let evolution do the rest.

That smacks of extreme arrogance.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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I am afraid there are too many "gun nuts" in this thread. Maybe we should leave them with their guns and let evolution do the rest.

That smacks of extreme arrogance.

But of course - it's another trademark of gun-o-phobe logic. They think they're smarter than us gun owners, and therefore they believe they're always correct.

He's implying here that people with guns will kill each other off, presumably leaving the unarmed types like himself behind to rule the earth in peace and love.

What he doesn't take into account is the possibility of himself being knocked off by criminals because he is unarmed.

He also has to ignore the fact that about half of all American homes are armed, and have been for hundreds of years. If they were going to kill themselves off, it would have happened already by now. So that alone disproves his evolution theory.

So which type of people, armed or unarmed, are more likely to live a long life? Darned if I know. Are you more likely to accidentally kill yourself with your own gun, or more likely to save your life with that gun. There are, of course, statistics on accidental deaths, which are very few, and also on self defense gun usages, which are very numerous. But there's no way to examine a self defense gun usage and predict alternative future outcomes had the intended victim not been armed. So you can't really know if a defensive gun usage saved a life. Therefore it would seem impossible to answer that aforementioned question. So it is indeed rather arrogant of him to presume that the unarmed people would come out on top in that comparison, because the answer is unknowable.

Maybe, as a gun-o-phobe, he's so danged smart that he even knows the unknowable...

[futuredivot 0]

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if you teach your son the shooting sports, there is a much greater chance that he will turn out to be a law-abiding responsible citizen!

I remember telling my wife that since my friends adn I grew up hunting, we grew up understanding that when you shoot, something dies-and no reset button brings it back.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Ron 10]

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What he doesn't take into account is the possibility of himself being knocked off by criminals because he is unarmed.

Makes me wonder if he read this:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article14086308.ece

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But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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He also has to ignore the fact that about half of all American homes are armed, and have been for hundreds of years. If they were going to kill themselves off, it would have happened already by now. So that alone disproves his evolution theory.

There is good (statistically significant) data showing that the rate of gun fatalities increases as the % of households owning guns increases.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.