gun ownership in the USA

[kelpdiver 2]

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Every illegal weapon once was a legal one, so numbers of illegal weapons will increase accordingly.

Kallend says that a lot too, but it still is false.

Not all weapons come into being as legal purchased ones. And not all illegal weapons stay so.

This is an argument that fails with the most simple of inspection. There are more guns than people in the US, and yet the crime rate stays in its typical cyclical pattern, with no correlation to the sales numbers. There is no pending doom.

If, however, the stock market continues to run into the ground and civilization as we know it falls apart, I'm going to fucking RULE my block in San Francisco.

[millertime24 8]

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So I guess you are suggesting tests and licenses for gun owners, and mandatory registration and liability insurance for all guns. OK.

The problem is that already exist and does nothing to deter criminals from getting their hands on guns illegaly who account for most gun related crimes/deaths.

Muff #5048

[futuredivot 0]

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The meaning of words IS important.

and splitting hairs is a good tactic to employ when you don't have a leg to stand on or the tail to back it up

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[marks2065 0]

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I have some questions for you, Dr. Sherman:

If guns prevent violent crime, why are there more gun homicides in states and nations that make access to guns easier?

If guns are good for us, why are there more gun accidents in places with more guns?

If guns are good for us, why are there more suicides in places with more guns?

If guns prevent crime and theft is a crime, how come over 300,000 guns are stolen every year?

If law abiding citizens with guns are good for society, how do you reconcile that with over 300,000 guns going from law abiding citizens into the hands of criminals every year?

the problem is not the law abiding citizen. the problem is the lack of penalty given those that commit a violent crime. there is little or no deterant to not commit a crime. even very serious crimes commited by criminals have very little penalty. If a criminal new that using a gun to commit a crime was going to get him 20 years to life without parole or even a death sentance they would probably not commit the crime, or if it was legal to shoot anyone that attacked you, they would think twice.

But as of right now, the criminal mind doesn't think the penalty they could get outways the results of the crime. Even if they get caught, they know that they will possibly get off on a technicality or get a short easy sentance in one of our "all incluisive club meds" that we call a jail.

Just like kids, criminals want to find the limits they can get away with, therefore we need to greatly reduce what they can get away with and greatly increase the penalty for doing the crime.

[kallend 2,027]

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The meaning of words IS important.

and splitting hairs is a good tactic to employ when you don't have a leg to stand on or the tail to back it up

Calling DC a state, or a tail "a leg", is intellectually dishonest, and calling someone on it is not splitting hairs.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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So I guess you are suggesting tests and licenses for gun owners, and mandatory registration and liability insurance for all guns. OK.

The problem is that already exist and does nothing to deter criminals from getting their hands on guns illegaly who account for most gun related crimes/deaths.

Mandatory testing, licensing, gun registration and liability insurance already exist? Where?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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I have some questions for you, Dr. Sherman:

If guns prevent violent crime, why are there more gun homicides in states and nations that make access to guns easier?

If guns are good for us, why are there more gun accidents in places with more guns?

If guns are good for us, why are there more suicides in places with more guns?

If guns prevent crime and theft is a crime, how come over 300,000 guns are stolen every year?

If law abiding citizens with guns are good for society, how do you reconcile that with over 300,000 guns going from law abiding citizens into the hands of criminals every year?

the problem is not the law abiding citizen. the problem is the lack of penalty given those that commit a violent crime.

Avoiding answering the questions!

The penalties in low homicide rate states are not higher than in high homicide rate states like Texas or Florida. In fact the reverse is the case, so your "explanation" simply doesn't work.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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Every illegal weapon once was a legal one, so numbers of illegal weapons will increase accordingly.

Kallend says that a lot too, but it still is false.

Not all weapons come into being as legal purchased ones. And not all illegal weapons stay so.

.

Source? Numbers?

We KNOW (according to the DoJ) that over 300,000 legal weapons become illegal every year.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

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Every illegal weapon once was a legal one, so numbers of illegal weapons will increase accordingly.

Kallend says that a lot too, but it still is false.

Not all weapons come into being as legal purchased ones. And not all illegal weapons stay so.

.

Source? Numbers?

We KNOW (according to the DoJ) that over 300,000 legal weapons become illegal every year.

what difference do the numbers make? are people getting shot with illegal guns? yes. are the gun bans helping this situation? no. what are the cops doing to curtail the illegal guns and murders? not much.

[kallend 2,027]

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Every illegal weapon once was a legal one, so numbers of illegal weapons will increase accordingly.

Kallend says that a lot too, but it still is false.

Not all weapons come into being as legal purchased ones. And not all illegal weapons stay so.

.

Source? Numbers?

We KNOW (according to the DoJ) that over 300,000 legal weapons become illegal every year.

what difference do the numbers make?

Numbers make a difference because 300,000 guns entering the criminal world every year is a BIG problem, whereas 3 would not be.

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are people getting shot with illegal guns? yes. are the gun bans helping this situation? no. what are the cops doing to curtail the illegal guns and murders? not much.

Good point. We SHOULD be doing more to pevent criminals from getting guns - like closing the gun show loophole, having stricter standards for getting permits, and mandatory VERY long jail sentences for people caught with illegal guns, making straw purchases, or fraudulently obtaining or selling guns and ammunition.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

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I have some questions for you, Dr. Sherman:

If guns prevent violent crime, why are there more gun homicides in states and nations that make access to guns easier?

If guns are good for us, why are there more gun accidents in places with more guns?

If guns are good for us, why are there more suicides in places with more guns?

If guns prevent crime and theft is a crime, how come over 300,000 guns are stolen every year?

If law abiding citizens with guns are good for society, how do you reconcile that with over 300,000 guns going from law abiding citizens into the hands of criminals every year?

the problem is not the law abiding citizen. the problem is the lack of penalty given those that commit a violent crime.

Avoiding answering the questions!

The penalties in low homicide rate states are not higher than in high homicide rate states like Texas or Florida. In fact the reverse is the case, so your "explanation" simply doesn't work.

i did answer the question maybe not to your satisfaction but i did answer it. the reason some areas have a higher or lower crime has alot of variables, but a good deterant WOULD lower those numbers across the board.

[kallend 2,027]

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I have some questions for you, Dr. Sherman:

If guns prevent violent crime, why are there more gun homicides in states and nations that make access to guns easier?

If guns are good for us, why are there more gun accidents in places with more guns?

If guns are good for us, why are there more suicides in places with more guns?

If guns prevent crime and theft is a crime, how come over 300,000 guns are stolen every year?

If law abiding citizens with guns are good for society, how do you reconcile that with over 300,000 guns going from law abiding citizens into the hands of criminals every year?

the problem is not the law abiding citizen. the problem is the lack of penalty given those that commit a violent crime.

Avoiding answering the questions!

The penalties in low homicide rate states are not higher than in high homicide rate states like Texas or Florida. In fact the reverse is the case, so your "explanation" simply doesn't work.

i did answer the question maybe not to your satisfaction but i did answer it. the reason some areas have a higher or lower crime has alot of variables, but a good deterant WOULD lower those numbers across the board.

You missed several - try again.

Question: If guns prevent violent crime, why are there more gun homicides in states and nations that make access to guns easier? Your answer suggests that more deterrence is the answer, but the highest homicide rate states already have the toughest deterrents, so your answer is clearly WRONG.



Question: If law abiding citizens with guns are good for society, how do you reconcile that with over 300,000 guns going from law abiding citizens into the hands of criminals every year?

Question: If guns are good for us, why are there more gun accidents in places with more guns?

Question: If guns are good for us, why are there more suicides in places with more guns?

Question: If guns prevent crime and theft is a crime, how come over 300,000 guns are stolen every year?

You answered none of these.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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which those gun jerks

Care to discuss the issue and not make childish insults?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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If guns prevent violent crime, why are there more gun homicides in states and nations that make access to guns easier?

DC has more gun crime than any city in TX. Go fish.

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If guns are good for us, why are there more gun accidents in places with more guns?

Really??? How many shootouts have happened at gun shows and gun stores verses places that have gun bans...Like schools?

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If guns prevent crime and theft is a crime, how come over 300,000 guns are stolen every year?

Because criminals steal things. Criminals also steal cars and use them in crimes....Should we outlaw cars then?

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You missed several - try again.

You of all people should not make that claim. You dodge answering questions anytime someone asks you a question.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[marks2065 0]

You missed several - try again.

Question: If guns prevent violent crime, why are there more gun homicides in states and nations that make access to guns easier? Your answer suggests that more deterrence is the answer, but the highest homicide rate states already have the toughest deterrents, so your answer is clearly WRONG.



Question: If law abiding citizens with guns are good for society, how do you reconcile that with over 300,000 guns going from law abiding citizens into the hands of criminals every year?

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maybe the people are not home when the house got robbed, or sold to pawn shops for needed money or to avoid loss due to gun bans

Question: If guns are good for us, why are there more gun accidents in places with more guns?

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maybe for the same reason there are more swooping accidents, more on one side of the issue means more on the other side.

Question: If guns are good for us, why are there more suicides in places with more guns?

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maybe the suicides are porportionate to the distress in the area, not relative to the gun volume

Question: If guns prevent crime and theft is a crime, how come over 300,000 guns are stolen every year?

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because they are not being stopped, they know they can get away with the crime

You answered none of these

[kelpdiver 2]

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Calling DC a state, or a tail "a leg", is intellectually dishonest, and calling someone on it is not splitting hairs.

No one called DC a state in this thread. You can't live on that past glory your whole life.

[kbordson 8]

Does correlation imply causation? Or are you linking unrelated variables and using those to advance a personal belief of your own.

[mnealtx 0]

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You omitted to tell us what % of DC households have guns, so your post is MOOT

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There is good (statistically significant) data showing that the rate of gun fatalities increases as the % of households owning guns increases.

(not to mention that DC is NOT a state, regardless of how many times you try to tell us that it is. Last time I looked at a US flag there were still 50 stars on it)

I don't recall saying it WAS a state, John...so you can drop the strawman now - or just keep whining about it. I really don't care either way.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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You omitted to tell us what % of DC households have guns, so your post is MOOT

Illegal gun possession will always be undercounted relative to legal ownership.

But we do know that nearly all of the guns in DC are illegal, so the high death rate is quite significant.

In comparing death rate with gun ownership, you need the gun ownership data. mnealtx is just throwing sand in the air to see if any gets in my eyes.

Speaking of sand in the air... how much longer are you going to whine about "DC isn't a state, so it doesn't count" instead of disproving the murder stats?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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So I guess you are suggesting tests and licenses for gun owners, and mandatory registration and liability insurance for all guns. OK.

Ah, so you want to treat guns like cars? No problem.

That means that a simple class and an operations test and any 17 year old can buy/carry a gun, 16 years old if they can prove a hardship.

That means that same 17 year old can can carry that gun nationwide, no questions asked.

That means that having the gun without the license is a simple $75 ticket that comes off their record in 3 years.

That means no background check, no mental health check, ANYONE of age can buy/carry, nationwide.

That means that on my own property, I can have whatever type and number of guns that I want - including full-auto, .50 cal, whatever it may be.

I can go with that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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That means that having the gun without the license is a simple $75 ticket that comes off their record in 3 years.

Don't forget the traffic school every 18 months. You can shoot off your ass in a NYC club and do it again in 2010!