FallingOsh 0 #51 November 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote If you wish to stick with Switzerland, how about givin gus the data on number of handguns in circulation there (as opposed to long guns), handgun murders, and the firearms training required of all adult males. Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000) ----------------------------------------------------------- United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28 Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42 Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47 Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42 Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07 United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06 Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05 Who has argued for making guns illegal, anyway? Just another STRAWMAN? What's the number of hand guns per 100k in those countries and what training is required? Why don't you look it up and report back to us? Because you're attempting to mount an argument. Anytime someone presents information counter to that argument you react with "apples and oranges." The numbers you posted don't mean anything by themselves. Hence, apples and oranges. Stand by for one-liner. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #52 November 18, 2008 Quotenational epidemic of tennis ball crimes. Speaking of national epidemics...how ya coming with those Koch Postulate proofs, professor?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #53 November 18, 2008 Quote Quote shhh...he doesn't want to talk about Switzerland! Did you blink, Chief? www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3396595#3396595 Regardless of which, Switzerland is not comparable to the USA for many reasons: The % of households with firearms is actually comparable to that of Canada (27.2%) rather than the US. There is strict screening of army officers who represent the majority of gun owners. Guns must be kept locked. Ammunition is rationed (72 rounds), required to be stored in sealed boxes, to be inspected regularly, and to be accounted for. The vast majority of firearms are NOT handguns. When handgun murder rate is compared, Switzerland looks piss-poor compared to tbe rest of western Europe (nearly as bad as the USA). John , not sure were you get your info from sounds like it relates to rules of the Swiss army for troops keeping their rather nice FAS90's at home. This has very little to do with the general gun regime. I lived there from 2001-2005 and the public gun ownership system is extremely liberal. Even as a foreigner I was allowed to own a number of Soviet and Swiss semi autos and half a dozen hand guns. There is (or was at the time I left at least) no legislation about guns being kept locked. Most people did but this was left to individual responsibility and common sense. There are many pistols in circulation there and many (mostly govt subsidised) shooting facilities at which to use them . The major differences I noticed there is that most locals have actually had formal weapons handling experience in the army (diluted now as military service is not mandatory any more and there are so many foriegners living in Switzerland) and also there is a generally law abiding and respectful culture there, more so than I have experienced anywhere else.regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #54 November 18, 2008 QuoteSwitzerland... there is a generally law abiding and respectful culture there, more so than I have experienced anywhere else. Ding ding ding! It's not about how many guns there are. It's about culture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #55 November 18, 2008 I couldn't agree more! Although apparently some of us are reserving judgment on that perspective.Meanwhile, I'm still trying to figure out who 'gus' is. Apparently he's in the spelling department. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 2 #56 November 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteSwitzerland... there is a generally law abiding and respectful culture there, more so than I have experienced anywhere else. Ding ding ding! It's not about how many guns there are. It's about culture. An culture can be highly effected by the laws. Such as in the USA we consider it a right to drive but in places like german it is a privalige. They don't have problems with drinking and driving like we do here because they view drinking as a social thing where as many here is the USA use it to escape reality. I am sure this is highly influenced by the fact that here you can have 5 DUI's and still have a legal license (I was hit by a drunk with 5 DUI and a legal license once). Where as in places like germany if you are caught once you loose your license period! Thier fines and such is based upon how much you make so even if your rich breaking the law is still going to hurt. There BMW's don't have cup holders. They often find it unbeleivable that we would even think of drinking a coke or eating while driving. They have strick laws about using cell phones yet we, in spite of all the studies and deaths, see it as a right to talk on the phone while driving. Anyways, I am not trying to get off subject here but use this as an example of how it is the laws that determine not only culture but violence. If you are caught stealing here you just give it back and spend a night or two in jail. Big deal, especially if you have nothing so you get clean clothes, cable TV, food, bed, etc. People who break the law do so by taking away the rights of others, sometimes the right to live, yet we have prisoners rights. And if you have enough money you can murder someone and if you even get convicted you can spend only a few years in prison for behaving good (the way you should be behaving anyways!) On top of that if you attempted to murder someone but fail because you were either to stupid in your execution of your plan or they just happened to not bleed to death after you slit thier throat twice because you suck at cutting or the knife was so dull you get tried for attempted murder....not murder. So because you suck or are stupid you get off with a lesser sentense just because you weren't successful...even though you fully planned to kill them you just didn't succeed in your plan. Really? Anyways, I think what should be discussed is the laws and justice system, how strick are the prisons? how strick are the laws? (not gun ownership laws but things like murder and such) how strickly are they enforced? How does the court system work. This is where the true correlations can be found. PS. One must also be careful in regards to statistic because statistics show that certain cities may have low pot usage whereas you can walk down the street and see people smoking and a cop may walk by them and do nothing. This statistic is arrived at by looking at the number of arrests for pot. Well, if the cops don't arrest people for pot becuase they feel they have more important things to deal with then that effects the statistic ultimately making it inaccurate whereas another city may show high usage but thats because they have a huge drug force that arrests any and everyone they can find using pot....so the reality is actually the opposite of the statistic. Not all statistics are like this but some are. You must look at how it was actually gathered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #57 November 18, 2008 QuoteSuch as in the USA we consider it a right to drive but in places like german it is a privalige. What states consider it a "right" to drive on public roadways? Driving in the U.S. is a privilege granted to those who meet the requirements such as drivers license, insurance, safe vehicle, driving record, etc.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #59 November 18, 2008 Quote and also there is a generally law abiding and respectful culture there, more so than I have experienced anywhere else. Would that respect account for the rate of handgun homicides being larger than, say France, Germany or the UK? Or the total rate of firearms deaths in Switzerland exceeding that over every other country in western Europe except Finland? Or that Geneva's homicide rate exceeds that of Berlin, Paris or London and is only slightly behind Belfast?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #60 November 18, 2008 Speaking of a straw man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #61 November 18, 2008 QuoteSpeaking of a straw man. Do you know what a "strawman" is?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tokter 0 #62 November 18, 2008 QuoteWould that respect account for the rate of handgun homicides being larger than, say France, Germany or the UK? Or the total rate of firearms deaths in Switzerland exceeding that over every other country in western Europe except Finland? A lot of suicides are committed with guns, which is why the total rate may be so high. And the vast majority of the remaining deaths are relationship dramas. But I agree if all those army weapons were not in circulation then that rate would probably be lower. But there is no dark alley that I would be afraid to walk down at night in Switzerland. Those weapons are very rarely used in "normal" crimes. As as Swiss living in the USA I would say it makes no sense to compare those statistics since they have completely different backgrounds. If you want to argue in changing the current gun laws here, then you should do that based on the facts here. I don't think there is anything to be gained by comparing it to Switzerland. Just my two cents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #63 November 18, 2008 Quote I don't think there is anything to be gained by comparing it to Switzerland. Just my two cents. Neither do I, but it seems that the gun enthusiasts bring it up regularly for their own reasons.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #64 November 18, 2008 I would like to know why people who want to curtail handgun ownership always talk about how high handgun murder rates are in the USA compared to other countries. If handguns cause murder, shouldn't you look at TOTAL murder rates? The handgun murder rate may be higher in the USA then Russia, but Russia has a higher TOTAL murder rate. Is it somehow more objectionable to be murdered with a gunshot than a more politically-correct method? Like maybe, smothered to death in a vat of organic tofu, or something? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #65 November 18, 2008 Yes I do thank you. The proper spelling is "straw man". I know you're sensitive to proper spelling, so I thought that might help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #66 November 18, 2008 QuoteYes I do thank you. The proper spelling is "straw man". So why are you using it incorrectly?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #67 November 18, 2008 Given that it's typically applied when one tries to misrepresent an opponent's position, I'd say it's spot on with regards to your attempts to misdirect the discussion. As usual I might add. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #68 November 18, 2008 Quote Given that it's typically applied when one tries to misrepresent an opponent's position, I'd say it's spot on with regards to your attempts to misdirect the discussion. As usual I might add. 1. Misdirection is NOT a synonym for misrepresentation. 2. I have not misrepresented anyone's position, and someone else first brought up Switzerland as a misdirection. Nice try at misdirection, though... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #69 November 18, 2008 So you didn't misrepresent another's position regarding Switzerland's gun issues with untruths then. OK my bad. I won't read what you write from now on if it's that completely misleading and untrue. Thanks for the clarification though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #70 November 19, 2008 I like reading Kallend write a vague misleading definition of misdirection and misrepresentation. It's like looking into opposing mirrors, hoping to find something at the end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #71 November 19, 2008 I gotta ask...why did you keep including Wisconsin but not Wyoming or North Dakota? In a list of FL, CA, TX, NY, NJ, IL, and WI, the WI really stands out like a sore thumb. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #72 November 19, 2008 I was almost expecting "end time" myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #73 November 19, 2008 QuoteI like reading Kallend write a vague misleading definition of misdirection and misrepresentation. Please provide a link to the post where I wrote a definition of either word. Quote It's like looking into opposing mirrors, hoping to find something at the end. You must be looking into rushmc's mirror, then.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #74 November 19, 2008 QuoteI gotta ask...why did you keep including Wisconsin but not Wyoming or North Dakota? In a list of FL, CA, TX, NY, NJ, IL, and WI, the WI really stands out like a sore thumb. Blues, Dave WI has a large urban center (Milwaukee).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #75 November 19, 2008 Quote So you didn't misrepresent another's position regarding Switzerland's gun issues with untruths then. OK my bad. I won't read what you write from now on if it's that completely misleading and untrue. Thanks for the clarification though. Your apology is accepted.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
