Obama wants $50B in loans released to carmakers

[DougH 270]

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And not only are you complaining, you are trying to make this an 'Obama' problem?

wow

TK

This isn't a presidential problem, this is a shitty executive problem. They should fire every one of those ceos!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[kallend 2,030]

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And not only are you complaining, you are trying to make this an 'Obama' problem?

wow

TK

This isn't a presidential problem, this is a shitty executive problem. They should fire every one of those ceos!

That hit the nail on the head.

It's management's job to manage the corporation - all aspects. Ergo, corporations fail because of poor management. Then the workers are fired and the CEOs walk away with their golden parachutes. THAT is the culture that's causing problems.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Not that alone. It's the unions pushing labor costs so goddamned high as well. UAW didn't wisen up to the fact that corporations exist to make a profit and not to give people jobs until just a few years ago. Far too late. MAJOR contributor to the current problems at auto makers in the US.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,030]

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Not that alone. It's the unions pushing labor costs so goddamned high as well. UAW didn't wisen up to the fact that corporations exist to make a profit and not to give people jobs until just a few years ago. Far too late. MAJOR contributor to the current problems at auto makers in the US.

MANAGEMENT is responsible for managing its workforce along with all other aspects of the corporation. Is it difficult - sure, that's why CEOs are paid $(tens of) millions in salaries, perks and bonuses.


Blaming the unions is a standard cop-out.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,008]

>It's stupid, if People want a 8 mpg car let them buy them.

I agree - and CAFE lets them buy 8mpg cars.

>If not the market will cause them to smarten up.

They are smartening up. So the system works.

[Gawain 0]

The government has already proven that it is incapable of maintaining accountability of taxpayer funds with AIG, the bailout and now they want to do this?

No.

President Bush needs to bring the CEOs of the big-3 into his office, along with the top three of UAW and throw down the gauntlet, and do what the big-three have been unwilling or unable to do:

-- If the companies go under/chapter, the labor contract is worthless.
-- If the UAW wants guarantees, it has to offer some (like giving up viagra as a benefit plan component for starters)
-- UAW needs to demand fresh blood in the upper management (especially GM), I know the industry is fond of Bob Lutz, but that guy has done little to push the revival of Cadillac to the other GM units.
-- GM needs to demand that long term, $75/hr combined wage/benefit is not sustainable under any circumstances

THEN:

The US govt (EPA/CARB/CAFE) needs to untie the regulations that are hampering deployment of proven, reliable, platforms that the rest of the "enlightened" world (you know, Europe that so many like to think we should follow) have. Ford and GM other global units are performing very well. They have sharp looking, well built, fuel efficient vehicles on the market NOW. However, it takes them two-three years to bring one to the US. One reason: US govt intervention.

So, then the cries of, "but what about safety, what about the environment?!?". It is in the automakers best interest to make safe vehicles. I'm not talking about 1K cars found in Japan, I'm talking about new generation Ford Ka/Fiesta platforms that are as big as a Civic. Or Mondeo based platforms that are as big as a Ford Fusion. A car that consumes less fuel but maybe runs 3% less clean still ends up being a net gain in less resources consumed, thus cleaner operation. At worst, it's a net zero-gain.

Ford and GM each build products overseas that I am convinced Americans would love. Holden is a prime example, GM realized this too late though, and of course their marketing is not so effective (the GTO and G8). Instead though, due to the wisdom of guys like Bob Lutz, Americans got products like the Pontiac Aztek.

Bottom line: there has to be a full blown psychological change in attitude with big-three management and UAW activism, and federal intervention to safe this whale. It's going to take more than money, and as long as the perception is that it's going to be a loan only, with no strings, I will oppose any additional bailout - of any amount. If all three sides aren't willing to tighten the belt, then forget it.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[bodypilot90 0]

no let the market determin what is sold.

[billvon 3,008]

>no let the market determin what is sold.

Right. Worked so well for Standard Oil, Enron, the Savings and Loan businesses of the 80's and the credit market.

[TheAnvil 0]

Bullshit.

Not facing the fact that unions and the increased labor costs associated with them added to this problem significantly is simply not facing reality.

Time for these companies to go the way of the dodo. They've been slow in the dying process, but dead they are. It would be better to take that $25 billion and set it on fire than give it to them.

When they go under, maybe UAW will have the courage to look in the mirror and say 'I helped but them out of business' but I doubt it. Unions weren't sorry they put Eastern Airlines out of business. They won't be sorry about GM, Ford, & Chrysler either.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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-- UAW needs to demand fresh blood in the upper management (especially GM), I know the industry is fond of Bob Lutz, but that guy has done little to push the revival of Cadillac to the other GM units.

This is not the authority of the union. This is the responsibility of the board, on behalf of the shareholders.

[kallend 2,030]

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Bullshit.

OK, if management's job is not to run the company, whose job is it, and why have extravagantly highly paid CEOs at all?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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how about doing away with The Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations.

Let the market work.

The market is working. Gas got expensive, people stopped buying the SUVs and trucks which were the bread and butter of American car makers, and the American car companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. Allowing them go out of business will finish letting the market do its thing.

In a free market, gas prices are going to go up a lot. There are
two billion people in China and India who want cars and products made from plastics derived from petroleum. In an unfree market we have an arguably anti-American cartel which can adjust supply to increase prices. Stricter CAFE controls would have produced products that suffered less than the inevitable price increases happening for either reason.

If the government is going to be stuck bailing out the car makers when the market changes, the central planning committees should be telling the car makers what they can build to limit the impact in the future. That means
strict CAFE standards must be imposed so we don't have to bail out the car companies the next time gas gets expensive.

Or the government could just let market forces do their thing.

[TheAnvil 0]

Still avoiding reality, eh John? You must love those unions so. Actually, it's not the unions, but the dollars they donate to the democrats. But saying it's the unions you so love is apropos I suppose.

It is management's job to run the company. When faced with an organized work force that has lost sight of the fact that corporations exist to produce profits for shareholders and not to provide jobs, that job becomes difficult. If not impossible. Not facing that fact is not facing reality.

Facing reality is much easier the sooner you do it. I highly recommend it.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Ford and GM each build products overseas that I am convinced Americans would love. Holden is a prime example, GM realized this too late though, and of course their marketing is not so effective (the GTO and G8). Instead though, due to the wisdom of guys like Bob Lutz, Americans got products like the Pontiac Aztek.

While customers would buy them, people would be unwilling to pay the German luxury car sticker prices that provide the margins high-overhead American car companies need to survive.

People are willing to spend a lot more on SUVs than comparable quality small cars with average MSRPs of $40,000 for large ones and $30,000 for mid-sized ones.

Selling cars with those sticker prices means producing products that compete successfully with companies like BMW which isn't going to happen overnight.

[kallend 2,030]

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Still avoiding reality, eh John? You must love those unions so. Actually, it's not the unions, but the dollars they donate to the democrats. But saying it's the unions you so love is apropos I suppose.

It is management's job to run the company. When faced with an organized work force that has lost sight of the fact that corporations exist to produce profits for shareholders and not to provide jobs, that job becomes difficult. If not impossible. Not facing that fact is not facing reality.

Facing reality is much easier the sooner you do it. I highly recommend it.

If the workforce is hostile to management, management is to blame, because the job of management is to manage the corporation and its workforce. Well managed companies don't have this problem.

You are just making the standard lame "blame the the dog, it ate my homework" excuse that little kids make for their own failures.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Au contraire I am facing reality. And reality is that corporation X competing with corporation Y will always be at a marked disadvantage if corporation X's manpower costs are far greater.

Fact: UAW helped put Detroit's big three in the position they are today. Was management blameless? No. Did UAW play a major role? Absolutely.

Deal with it whenever you so desire. A fact it remains.

And when the big three go bankrupt (dear God PLEASE don't let them get bailed out by the gov't) and the UAW doesn't have $$ to send to democrats, do you think those congressmen will still invite them to parties and send them Christmas cards out of the goodness of their hearts?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Gawain 0]

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-- UAW needs to demand fresh blood in the upper management (especially GM), I know the industry is fond of Bob Lutz, but that guy has done little to push the revival of Cadillac to the other GM units.

This is not the authority of the union. This is the responsibility of the board, on behalf of the shareholders.

The board should not consider itself safe from the massive restructure that is needed. They have clearly rubber-stamped the management for too long, from product development to compensation to labor relations.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

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Ford and GM each build products overseas that I am convinced Americans would love. Holden is a prime example, GM realized this too late though, and of course their marketing is not so effective (the GTO and G8). Instead though, due to the wisdom of guys like Bob Lutz, Americans got products like the Pontiac Aztek.

While customers would buy them, people would be unwilling to pay the German luxury car sticker prices that provide the margins high-overhead American car companies need to survive.

People are willing to spend a lot more on SUVs than comparable quality small cars with average MSRPs of $40,000 for large ones and $30,000 for mid-sized ones.

Selling cars with those sticker prices means producing products that compete successfully with companies like BMW which isn't going to happen overnight.

I disagree completely. One example, the Saturn Astra is a direct tie-in from the Vauxhall Astra in the UK, and Opel Astra in France. The Vauxhall sells for roughly £11K and the Opel ¤EU14K. In the states, a base model is about $16.5K...all in line with currency exchange rates. The big three don't make a whole lot of the "big-stuff" for the global market. There are other, only a few examples of this migration from other markets to the US.

Ford has been far more successful integration platforms across Mazda, Volvo and Ford line-ups.

GM is the pink-elephant in the room that no one will acknowledge, and we're about to see that this mind-set will no longer work.

I think the real lynch pin here is the unions. They contributed a lot to the political campaigns this year, they're expecting payback. However, their solutions are meaningless if they drive the companies out of business.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,030]

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Au contraire I am facing reality. And reality is that corporation X competing with corporation Y will always be at a marked disadvantage if corporation X's manpower costs are far greater.

And it is MANAGEMENT'S job to manage its workforce.


I don't think the UAW made the decision to push Hummers, Escalades, Lincoln Navigators and other behemoths.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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Au contraire I am facing reality. And reality is that corporation X competing with corporation Y will always be at a marked disadvantage if corporation X's manpower costs are far greater.

And it is MANAGEMENT'S job to manage its workforce.

I don't think the UAW made the decision to push Hummers, Escalades, Lincoln Navigators and other behemoths.

Don't be so sure.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,030]

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Au contraire I am facing reality. And reality is that corporation X competing with corporation Y will always be at a marked disadvantage if corporation X's manpower costs are far greater.

And it is MANAGEMENT'S job to manage its workforce.

I don't think the UAW made the decision to push Hummers, Escalades, Lincoln Navigators and other behemoths.

Don't be so sure.

If the UAW is doing the job of the CEO, why have a CEO with a massive compensation package, plus all his VPs, adminstrative assistants and other hangers-on? According to its SEC filing, Ford CEO Mulally made $24Million for 4 months work. GM's CEO makes more than the top 10 executives combined at Toyota or Nissan.

Yet all you can whine about is the UAW.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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Au contraire I am facing reality. And reality is that corporation X competing with corporation Y will always be at a marked disadvantage if corporation X's manpower costs are far greater.

And it is MANAGEMENT'S job to manage its workforce.

I don't think the UAW made the decision to push Hummers, Escalades, Lincoln Navigators and other behemoths.

Don't be so sure.

If the UAW is doing the job of the CEO, why have a CEO with a massive compensation package, plus all his VPs, adminstrative assistants and other hangers-on? According to its SEC filing, Ford CEO Mulally made $24Million for 4 months work. GM's CEO makes more than the top 10 executives combined at Toyota or Nissan.

Yet all you can whine about is the UAW.

The UAW mandates quite a bit about the manufacturing process from re-tooling of factories, which will be manned, by whom, and how work shifts will be structured.

I'm not defending the CEO, I'm not defending the UAW. I am defending the company's existence. Figure for 100,000 plant workers (the real number is higher), average salary, with benefits is $73.26/hr - $146,000/year. That's $14B spent on nothing but salary and benefits, not hardware, not materials, not electricity, not taxes, nothing. Plus, add the super juicy retirements that these guys get on top of that...

You seem to think that management can just say how these things get, made, by whom, and for how much....welcome to collective bargaining. They've collectively along with inept management, helped to create one of the biggest private welfare states, and it's about to fail.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 3,008]

> And reality is that corporation X competing with corporation Y will always be
>at a marked disadvantage if corporation X's manpower costs are far
>greater.

Agreed. The unions are shooting themselves in the foot by forcing the companies they work for to pay far more for labor than other companies, thus making the companies less competitive. Of course, the management of those companies shot themselves in the foot a long time ago by agreeing to union demands.

[TheAnvil 0]

Again, you avoid facing reality. By not standing up to the unions harder in the past, management has hurt the company. You think union demands and leveraging to be a non-factor, apparently.

Face reality whenever you like.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,030]

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Again, you avoid facing reality. By not standing up to the unions harder in the past, management has hurt the company. You think union demands and leveraging to be a non-factor, apparently.

Face reality whenever you like.

REALITY is that management SHOULD have stood up to unions, THAT was their job.

Unions are not paid to run the company, management is. And they get paid Very Big Bucks to do it.


Honda, Toyota and Nissan do not pay their CEO 500 times the pay of their average worker. How do GM and Ford justify it, given their dismal performance?
Explain why GM's CEO is worth so much more than Toyota's or Nissan's.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.