Obama wants $50B in loans released to carmakers

[TheAnvil 0]

Again - if you think unions had no part, you are not facing reality.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Gawain 0]

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I don't know too many people that are eager to buy a car from a company that has gone tits up.

>Yet you are advocating that we, the taxpayer, do just that...

>Oh, the irony!!

Rubbish.....GM is still the #1 automaker worldwide and Chevy is the fastest growing car, all is not lost.....they're still tits down.

You missed the headline months ago where Toyota surpassed GM in volume and ranking. GM's domestic market share has been on a near irreversible downward trend.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,027]

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Again - if you think unions had no part, you are not facing reality.

If you think the unions' job is to manage the corporation, maybe they should fire the CEOs and give the CEOs' salaries to the workers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,006]

>If you think the unions' job is to manage the corporation, maybe they
>should fire the CEOs and give the CEOs' salaries to the workers.

You're right! In the case of GM, that would increase worker's salaries by around .02%. (or about 1.6 cents per hour.) With increases like that, people will ditch the union's paltry $8 an hour pay raises and flock to the new leaderless companies! I can see no possible downside.

[TheAnvil 0]

Never stated it was. And again, if you think unions are blameless here, you are not facing reality.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Never stated it was. And again, if you think unions are blameless here, you are not facing reality.

The American consumer is to blame too - if they would just buy 'Merican, there wouldn't be a problem.

Everyone is to blame, so you have to stop hiding behind that and look at those with the greatest ability to act differently. No one has more power than those in charge.

[Coreece 190]

I don't know too many people that are eager to buy a car from a company that has gone tits up.

>Yet you are advocating that we, the taxpayer, do just that...

>Oh, the irony!!

Rubbish.....GM is still the #1 automaker worldwide and Chevy is the fastest growing car, all is not lost.....they're still tits down.

>You missed the headline months ago where Toyota surpassed GM in >volume and ranking. GM's domestic market share has been on a near >irreversible downward trend.


I think its important to note however that Toyota's numbers include data from Daihatsu that the OICA lists as a seperate entity, but since Daihatsu is still a Toyota subsidiary I guess it doesn't matter. The numbers also reflect large commercial vehicles and busses produced by Toyota. If we only look at cars and smaller commercial vehicles (the bulk of production) GM is ahead slightly...but we are looking at overall numbers...so again, I guess it doesn't matter.

I would still maintain however that all is not lost and that it is a mistake to give up now. If we had a normal stable economy and there wasn't such a demand and opportunity for more practical vehicles, perhaps I would see a bailout as foolish as you do. I choose to remain optimistic and hopeful.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Gawain 0]

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I don't know too many people that are eager to buy a car from a company that has gone tits up.

>Yet you are advocating that we, the taxpayer, do just that...

>Oh, the irony!!

Rubbish.....GM is still the #1 automaker worldwide and Chevy is the fastest growing car, all is not lost.....they're still tits down.

>You missed the headline months ago where Toyota surpassed GM in >volume and ranking. GM's domestic market share has been on a near >irreversible downward trend.

I think its important to note however that Toyota's numbers include data from Daihatsu that the OICA lists as a seperate entity, but since Daihatsu is still a Toyota subsidiary I guess it doesn't matter.

So what? GM's figures include all eight domestic brands, plus the additional five subsidiaries in Europe and Asia.

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The numbers also reflect large commercial vehicles and busses produced by Toyota. If we only look at cars and smaller commercial vehicles (the bulk of production) GM is ahead slightly...but we are looking at overall numbers...so again, I guess it doesn't matter. I would still maintain however that all is not lost and that it is a mistake to give up now. Pehaps if we had a normal stable economy and there wasn't such a demand for more practical vehicles, perhaps I would see a bailout as foolish as you do. I choose to remain optimistic and hopeful.

GM is not ahead, by any measure anymore.

Don't misunderstand my points. I want GM to succeed. If the workers value their union, then I want the UAW to succeed, however, I do not believe it is possible with the current leadership in place with either entity.

Having said that, if the taxpayer is going to go on the line to save the union (which is what this bailout does), then I want the labor agreement wiped clean. I want the jobs-bank off the table, I want senior management out, and I want a finite, guarantee as to when the company is going to pay the loan back to the taxpayer. I want an iron-clad deal that guarantees a return for the trouble (7% sounds okay).

The blank check is not an option. $70/hr for an assembly worker is not an option. $x-million bonuses is not an option and a change in direction for the retirement welfare from this point forward must occur.

If neither side can cede that, then guess who loses? The workers, you know why? If GM goes into bankruptcy, the labor deal is dead.

So, UAW better get off its @ss and join GM in maintaining its existence. It's that simple. That means the job-bank is gone, that means that certain benefits have to be trimmed, and it means that the senior management has to reapply for their job, because if I were a shareholder, I'd be calling for senior-management-sweep, no golden parachute, nothing.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[n23x 0]

UAW says "No more concessions"

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"We're here not because of what the auto industry has done," he said. "We're here because of what has happened to the economy."

"It's not our fault". Sounds like their pretty committed to change...

jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Never stated it was. And again, if you think unions are blameless here, you are not facing reality.

The American consumer is to blame too - if they would just buy 'Merican, there wouldn't be a problem.

In most caes the average American consumer can't afford to buy American because American semi-skilled laborers get paid a more for one 8 hour shift than Chinese workers do a month worth of labor (for example, Chinese auto workers get about $150 a month while non-union Americans still manage at least $20 an hour).

Robots help narrow the gap but it's still there.

For example, you might pay $500 for a Chinese pair of speakers parts labor and shipping a 40' container at a time, $1500 for mass produced American goods parts and labor, or $4500 labor only for a furniture maker's time before you factor in markups. At the high end putting that much labor into cheap parts isn't a good value so you use expensive parts for a total of $6500. Factor in markups based on how much effort it takes to sell at those price points and you might be $1000, $4500, and $25,000 out the door from your local shops.

When it comes to cars, we can afford to buy American but in a lot of categories the American products just don't stack up.

[normiss 806]

So a co-worker of mine purchased a no-name Chinese manufactured scooter a few months ago.
Biggest piece of shit on the planet. No parts supply chain, no service available, all instructions in Chinese. Doesn't run worth a shit and leaks oil and gas.
But it was cheap.
It's a copy of the Suzuki that is prices at almost double.
American products are good products. We seem to demand the impossible sometimes.
If all we do is base our purchases of anything on price alone, we're screwing ourselves and our economy. I firmly believe this is a part of the problem. We cannot continue to export our entire economy and expect American business to survive that.
Reduce CEO salaries and "rewards" for making quarterly numbers.
Get rid of unions.
Remove the ability to sue anyone for everything.
Stop giving foreign companies favorable incentives to make factories and businesses here in the US unless those exact same incentives are offered to American businesses.
Remove health care liability issues that have caused the costs to go through the roof. I'd gladly sign a waiver at the doctors office if he cut his prices in half (or more!).

[kelpdiver 2]

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In most caes the average American consumer can't afford to buy American because American semi-skilled laborers get paid a more for one 8 hour shift than Chinese workers do a month worth of labor (for example, Chinese auto workers get about $150 a month while non-union Americans still manage at least $20 an hour).

People had no problem buying Escalades and Explorers for years, before it was made clear how stupid buying a 12 mpg solo commuter was.

Even now, GM is still selling about as many vehicles as Toyota. So the pricing doesn't seem to be the real problem.

I think you also missed the point.

[kallend 2,027]

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>If you think the unions' job is to manage the corporation, maybe they
>should fire the CEOs and give the CEOs' salaries to the workers.

You're right! In the case of GM, that would increase worker's salaries by around .02%. (or about 1.6 cents per hour.) With increases like that, people will ditch the union's paltry $8 an hour pay raises and flock to the new leaderless companies! I can see no possible downside.

Well, they could invest the CEO and cronies' salaries in Toyota or Honda stock - I'm sure there's some benefit to be gained instead of just giving the money to someone whose responsibility in Vinnyworld does not seem to be managing the company.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

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Again - if you think unions had no part, you are not facing reality.

If you think the unions' job is to manage the corporation, maybe they should fire the CEOs and give the CEOs' salaries to the workers.

unions have done good in the past, but now they are part of the problem. the mechanics union has almost priced the dealer out of business. the union needs to work at supporting the worker without bankrupting the company.

the government needs to support the american companies with the same incentives that the foriegn companies get.

for some of the other posters on this thread, if you drive a foriegn car and are unemployed, you deserve it! maybe if you bought some american products you would still be employed. just owning a foriegn car makes you a bigger part of the problem. even if you bought a toyota made in the US the profits go back to japan and support the economy there not here.

I don't know if it is still true, but Japan used to subsidise companies that exported products so they could sell those products cheaper in other countries to give them the edge needed to be competitive and to prosper in other countries.

[kallend 2,027]

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Again - if you think unions had no part, you are not facing reality.

If you think the unions' job is to manage the corporation, maybe they should fire the CEOs and give the CEOs' salaries to the workers.

unions have done good in the past, but now they are part of the problem. the mechanics union has almost priced the dealer out of business. the union needs to work at supporting the worker without bankrupting the company.

the government needs to support the american companies with the same incentives that the foriegn companies get.

for some of the other posters on this thread, if you drive a foriegn car and are unemployed, you deserve it! maybe if you bought some american products you would still be employed. just owning a foriegn car makes you a bigger part of the problem. even if you bought a toyota made in the US the profits go back to japan and support the economy there not here.

.

Last Chevy I bought turned out to have been assembled in Mexico.

Driving a Ford product now, but who knows where the parts came from?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pirana 0]

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I don't want one cent of taxpayer $$ going to another industry. Fuck that. Let capitalism run its course.

The money is supposed to go for research and development for fuel efficient cars... like the competition has been doing for 10 years.

Let Toyota and Honda buy GM and Ford.
They can immediately scrap all the worst 10 useless models that no one is buying.

There are car manufacturers, building cars in the US, who are making business decisions based on common sense.

The market has already made its decision with their wallets.
Why give them more taxpayers money to continue on in their mistakes? Welcome to capitalism.

Agree. The morons who ran that business, and the unions that helped fuck it all up, deserve what they get. Why should we pore billions of public money in? Let Toyota buy it for what it is still worth. They'll turn it around faster than giving the same old same old fucktards more money to do their same old same old shit.

Isn't that how business is supposed to work?

Enough of the handouts to those that have proven they can not be trusted to run a business.

Let them go down. It will be painful for a bit, but the recovery will be speedier and we'll end up with a better outcome.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[marks2065 0]

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Again - if you think unions had no part, you are not facing reality.

If you think the unions' job is to manage the corporation, maybe they should fire the CEOs and give the CEOs' salaries to the workers.

unions have done good in the past, but now they are part of the problem. the mechanics union has almost priced the dealer out of business. the union needs to work at supporting the worker without bankrupting the company.

the government needs to support the american companies with the same incentives that the foriegn companies get.

for some of the other posters on this thread, if you drive a foriegn car and are unemployed, you deserve it! maybe if you bought some american products you would still be employed. just owning a foriegn car makes you a bigger part of the problem. even if you bought a toyota made in the US the profits go back to japan and support the economy there not here.

.

Last Chevy I bought turned out to have been assembled in Mexico.

Driving a Ford product now, but who knows where the parts came from?

alot of the big 3 products are made in canada and mexico, but the profits support the economy here in the US. Even Harley get parts made overseas but the bulk is done here in the US and the profits stay here to support our economy.

I personally own 2 dodges, 2 fords, a harley, and even my speakers on my stereo are bose (an american comany). my skydiving gear and most of my scubu gear is made by american companies. I try to buy American whenever I can. I will even pay a little more if i can buy something from my local community to support the area that supports my business.

after all the partisin crap lately on politics, maybe we should just be americans and support America and the products we make and the companies that employ us.

How many people out here can say at least 75% of what they own(other than their house) was purchased or made by an American company?

[rehmwa 2]

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How many people out here can say at least 75% of what they own(other than their house) was purchased or made by an American company?

I have to wonder, if buying a product for more than you should just because it's "Made in America" does more harm (long term) by enablling bad management and bad business practices to survive longer than they should in a real market.

It's an interesting marketing ploy, but there's no proof that it doesn't cause more harm than good.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

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How many people out here can say at least 75% of what they own(other than their house) was purchased or made by an American company?

75% by value - yes. By number of items, wow, that would be hard to count in a short period of time.

(And there's still the issue that you buy an American name brand item and it turns out to have been made in China, like the buffer-polisher for my car I bought last week).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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How many people out here can say at least 75% of what they own(other than their house) was purchased or made by an American company?

I have to wonder, if buying a product for more than you should just because it's "Made in America" does more harm (long term) by enablling bad management and bad business practices to survive longer than they should in a real market.

It's an interesting marketing ploy, but there's no proof that it doesn't cause more harm than good.

Harm to whom?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Last Chevy I bought turned out to have been assembled in Mexico.

Whereas my subaru was built in Indiana.

The buy american argument worked better when it was clear what that meant.

[marks2065 0]

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How many people out here can say at least 75% of what they own(other than their house) was purchased or made by an American company?

I have to wonder, if buying a product for more than you should just because it's "Made in America" does more harm (long term) by enablling bad management and bad business practices to survive longer than they should in a real market.

It's an interesting marketing ploy, but there's no proof that it doesn't cause more harm than good.

the extra $20 i spent on several ink cartridges at my local place for my printers got me $1200 in work. sounds good to me.

[pirana 0]

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Not that alone. It's the unions pushing labor costs so goddamned high as well. UAW didn't wisen up to the fact that corporations exist to make a profit and not to give people jobs until just a few years ago. Far too late. MAJOR contributor to the current problems at auto makers in the US.

MANAGEMENT is responsible for managing its workforce along with all other aspects of the corporation. Is it difficult - sure, that's why CEOs are paid $(tens of) millions in salaries, perks and bonuses.


Blaming the unions is a standard cop-out.

Hogwash. The unions knew they had the automakers by the short hairs because the short-term costs of relocating would have killed them. It's a heavy industry that is hardly transportable. So they squeezed for all they could get - ridiculous wage and benefit packages for lots of no- and low-skilled labor.

The automakers caved in the name of survival, but all it did was delay the outcome. The total labor burden (wages, benefits, pensions) paid in this country put the industry on the road to doom long ago. They created labor costs that had all the manufacturers teetering on the brink of survival for years; waiting for any kind of climate shift in the economy to drive them to extinction.

Along comes an economic slowdown; which, last time I looked was still not an outright contraction, and they are suddenly an unviable industry. That did not happen overnight; it took years of being bled by the UAW.

So IMO, the leadership and the workforce get equal blame for their no longer having a say about the business they are in. Can't wait to see what the real wages are if they get bought out and the business goes non-union. Guaranteed they will not be paying $60 or $70 an hour for what amounts to assembly work.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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I don't think we should give other countries our money because we AMERICANS are toooooo stupid/greedy to run a business. We are better than this and can make it work. I'd rather have a socialistic government before allowing/financing foreign companies to takeover all of our business....I think, it could just be American pride talking though.

We Americans are giving other countries money (in the form of interest on T-bills) because we're too stupid to balance our budget.

In fiscal year 2008 we paid $451 BILLION dollars in inerest on the national debt.. 25% of our debt is in the hands of foreign countries meaning that we're already paying foreign countries over $100 BILLION a year for being stupid.

Paying the Japanese a small sum like $50B to take over the American car companies would be less than the annual expenditures we already send over seas for being stupid.

Yes, and in the grand scheme of today's global market; it is far more important that things are run effectively than worrying about who runs them.

The kind of nationalism that breeds fear over foriegn ownership is bordering on propoganda. It's just not that relevant anymore.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[happythoughts 0]

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How many people out here can say at least 75% of what they own(other than their house) was purchased or made by an American company?

There have been a lot of websites that promoted that.
Their problem was finding those products.

Who builds stereos?
Electronics ?
Clothing?

Nobody in the US.

Your bank? Bank of America? Information processing is done overseas. Most major multinationals do that.

Even the US govt sends software contracts overseas.