Coreece 190 #326 December 9, 2008 QuoteRight up to the point where it threatens one of their strongly held beliefs, then science gets tossed faster than handgrenade with no pin. lol...not that fast... QuoteThey even give it a fancy name like non-overlapping magisteria to make it sound like they haven't fudged anything. Sounds more like a personal problem with a dead guy.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #327 December 9, 2008 Ultimately there's no proof either way of God. It's likely there never will be. Essentially it's down to the individual whether they believe or not. Can an individual have 100% faith? Or 0%? Can faith even be measured? Who can argue with an individuals experiences which lead him to believe in God? Or not believe for that matter? Seems it's only the individual who can answer such questions then. It might make for passionate discussion, sure, but what makes it a subject especially interesting is how quickly the anger, mockery & bitterness appear. And of course, the killing too. As for me, I don't mind what anyone believes. Whether you're Christian, Muslim or Atheist I'll listen to you, but let me warn you if you're the latter; you're gonna BURN!! AND. . . only kidding. Many of us believe in Jesus, although many doubt his reported actions and claims. If you don't believe in God, what was Jesus then? What was so special about the man? Edit: Anyone know of any decent sites which have sensible(ish) arguments regarding the subject? Virtually all the ones I come across have shite headlines like: 'EVOLUTION THEORY PROVED WRONG!' & '100% EVIDENCE GOD EXISTS, just send $15',etc,etc... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #328 December 9, 2008 QuoteIf you don't believe in God, what was Jesus then? What was so special about the man? Nothing. I thought you'd have figured out how atheism works by now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #329 December 9, 2008 QuoteA singularity of matter and energy is theorized and accepted, how can you be so certain that a singularity of awareness and wisdom didn't also exist. Because wisdom and awareness don't even exist in the way that matter and energy do. You can't go and quantify a bit of awareness, you can't make any laws that describe the behaviour of wisdom.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #330 December 9, 2008 QuoteIn fact the LARGEST CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION on Earth does not deny Evolution. I gte the feeling that the Vatican's view does include elements of Intelligent design (though I don't think they ever use the name), especially concerning the specific evolution of humans.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #331 December 9, 2008 QuoteMany of us believe in Jesus, although many doubt his reported actions and claims. If you don't believe in God, what was Jesus then? What was so special about the man? Same thing that was special about Buddha or Mohammed, Alexander the Great and all the other prophets/living gods there have been throughout history. And there have been a lot. Or on a different tack, take Socrates. No-one thought he was in any way divine, he was not wealthy or powerful, he never wrote down or published anything, never set up a formal school and yet his methods and ideas have strongly influenced the way we think about things for nearly 2,500 years. Some people just have charisma.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #332 December 9, 2008 Sure, that works: the Jesus 'phenomena' was simply through the man being charismatic. . . 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #333 December 9, 2008 Quote Sure, that works: the Jesus 'phenomena' was simply through the man being charismatic. . . OK then, let's imagine that Jesus was the son of God. What was so special about Mohammed?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #334 December 9, 2008 Explain your assertion that Jesus was nothing more than charismatic. If you want to use Mohammed as another example of a charismatic 'phenomena' that's fine. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #335 December 9, 2008 Quote Edit: Anyone know of any decent sites which have sensible(ish) arguments regarding the subject? Yes. And I've provided links a few times before, which neither make fun nor lambast any perspective, as there are multiple; it's not binary. [Edit to add: another source is the site for the NOVA episode, which at least here in the US one can watch online, cited in the OP of this thread.] VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #336 December 9, 2008 Truth? Meh, what is "truth"? Some will only accept an idea as the truth if it can be felt, seen, heard, proven in some specific physical way. Some will accept without those requirements. The differences of opinion is what allows humans to progress. Those that can analyze and use the differences are the ones who fuel that progression. Those that can't stagnate. The earth is flat. The earth is round. Progressive: Well, let's take a closer look and figure it out. Stagnant: I don't care what you say, the earth is flat! The message is: Close-minded doesn't work.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #337 December 9, 2008 Thanks Marg - appreciated as always. Any chance of a link to give me more time to read them all??? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #338 December 9, 2008 QuoteQuoteGood points all around. Except that once again I see the atheists painting all Christians as science-denying. Not true at all. I'm a Christian who accepts evolution. There's large numbers of us. In fact the LARGEST CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION on Earth does not deny Evolution. Somehow the atheists seem to miss that little fact. Quite so. There are a lot of religious people who accept science. Right up to the point where it threatens one of their strongly held beliefs,Except that it doesn't, that's the point. QuoteThey even give it a fancy name like non-overlapping magisteria to make it sound like they haven't fudged anything. Wasn't that from Stephen J Gould? He is not religious. Gould is an agnostic Jew, so he doesn't have any religious belief system to protect. Here is his essay on Non-Overlapping Magisteria: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #339 December 9, 2008 Quote Explain your assertion that Jesus was nothing more than charismatic. If you want to use Mohammed as another example of a charismatic 'phenomena' that's fine. He got a lot of people to dedicate their lives to him and write stuff about how great he was. Sounds pretty charismatic to me. Now, if you think that saying Jesus was just charismatic is "", then you need to explain what was so special about Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith and all those others who have done the same as Jesus. Only once you have an explanation for their success that could not possibly apply to Jesus do you have a basis for arguing that people thinking he was divine means he actually was divine.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #340 December 9, 2008 Quote Thanks Marg - appreciated as always. Any chance of a link to give me more time to read them all??? You're most welcome, altho' I'm a lil' confused (I included links) ... but to be more explicit: -- http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11876 -- http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/ -- http://www.anthro.utah.edu/PDFs/Papers/khnbj05.pdf -- http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/ VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #341 December 9, 2008 QuoteThe earth is flat. The earth is round. Scientist: Well, let's take a closer look and figure it out. Priest: I don't care what you say, the earth is flat! Fixed it.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #342 December 9, 2008 QuoteHow can you be so stuck on evolution as the explanation for how everything came into existence. because that is what makes the most sense with all the science and evidence that we have today. QuoteAgreed evolution as a force has been in play for approximately 3.5 billion years, shaping life on this planet. It is just a process, totally reliant on other physical and chemical principles to even occur. How about the natural laws, matter, & energy, have they and will they always exist eternally? glad we all agree on something. And yes, the natural laws have always existed (or at least all evidence currently available tells us that) QuoteSince matter and energy can interchange but not be created or destroyed, how did the limited cognizant state we enjoy develop in this remote isolated place? Because we ended up on a planet just the right distance from a sun, with the right amount of temperature, water, matters, carbons, energies, etc etc, to begin menial, but sustaining life. I am also sure that there are millions of other places in the universe where life exists and/or has existed in many different forms. QuoteIf anything is possible in the world of evolution and chance occurrence then ,there must have been a supermassive cognizant state before we came along. not necessarily. And not everything is possible in evolution. 95-98% of all species that have existed on the earth are extinct. So lots of things are possible, but not 'everything' is possible, and evolution was not 'chance' occurrence, it was the dying and breeding of species over millions of years with far more failures than successes. Quote A singularity of matter and energy is theorized and accepted... A singularity of matter is theorized and QUESTIONED daily by the scientific community to continue its validation - and they are willing to change if and when new evidence arises to alter or discriminate that theory. People in this world are still executed daily for 'questioning' the deity of a 'God', despite the lack of evidence of their existence. Quote...how can you be so certain that a singularity of awareness and wisdom didn't also exist. It is pretty obvious that we are the product of both. I can't be certain, but I am certain that no evidence of such a singularity exists, and until I see such evidence, I shall not buy into it. THEREFORE, there is no credence to us being a product of anything other than evolution, which by the way, has supporting evidence by the truckload....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #343 December 9, 2008 QuoteWasn't that from Stephen J Gould? He is not religious. Gould is an agnostic Jew, so he doesn't have any religious belief system to protect. Was.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #344 December 9, 2008 Quoteevolution, which by the way, has supporting evidence by the truckload....... On this point, you & Pope John Paul II are in agreement. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #345 December 9, 2008 Quote Sure, that works: the Jesus 'phenomena' was simply through the man being charismatic. . . That very well could be the case. Charisma can go a long way regardless of intent. Billy Graham, Martin Luther King Jr., Charles Manson, Jim Jones all had charisma and a message. It is easy to see, if you take someone with that kind of charisma, add a little David Copperfield magic & illusion, and put them in the time of Jesus life, how they could be seen as something special.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #346 December 9, 2008 "I'm a Christian. I don't think the majority of the world is wrong. (Or at least, they are not necessarily any more right or wrong than I am.) " I dont know what kind of Christian you are, so Im going to assume only the most basic tennants of Christianity which is that god appeared on Earth in human form, died for ours sins and was ressurected. If you dont believe these things please let me know, but that's the common intepretation of what it means to be a Christian. Clearly Muslims dont believe these things, nor do Hindus , nor do Jews, nor do atheists, nor do Jainists etc etc If you are a Christian then the implication of your beliefs is that they are all wrong on this issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #347 December 9, 2008 I think teaching religious ideas is not the same as preaching them. Religion is an important theme in human life, so its worthwhile understanding religious belief. As long as this is done in an objective non preachy style I think its a good thing. I wish religion didnt permeate human life, but it does, so we need to understand it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #348 December 9, 2008 Try this: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ or a more scholarly version this: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #349 December 9, 2008 >Perhaps we could have a "Religion Only" section . . . . You're in it! (Well, and guns and politics.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #350 December 9, 2008 If religion was the real One Truth - one wouldn't need to teach it, it would be built into all of us and would be the same the World (actually Universe) over, no ambiguity -I mean how destructive and inefficient is that? But it's not and it's full of 1/2 truths, contradictions and does not encompass all of the peoples of the planet...... It's really about control and power. in short.... it's bollocks (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
