I dont think he likes W too much

[shropshire 0]

There was not shite on the shoes .........












........ untill after they hit Bush

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rehmwa 2]

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If your point was that actions must be viewed through a contextual lens, then yes, I guess I was reiterating your point.

Your "larger" point is true, but completely misses the mark of the topic. Random philosophy thrown in for good measure.

my point isn't really partisan, only the fun poking is.... my point is - contextualization isn't a determination of right vs wrong, it only allows a determination of whether one can relate to it or not.

Thus, using your ability to empathize with an action is normal and fits your contextualization points, but just because you sympathize with an action doesn't automatically make it right - and that's really what we are seeing here. That is incredibly narcissistic - but we see it more and more as time passes.

"I understand, therefore it can't be wrong" those are two totally different things, but people seem to constantly try to make them equivalent. Until that happens, discussion of morality are a waste of time, because the misuse of context in this way makes no common point of discussion.

Edit: For those of you not up to Dan's level, another simpler way of saying it is - two wrongs don't make a right - there, a trite and known saying should keep a handful content and fuzzy

Edit: Edit: And, just because I think throwing something in anger (no matter the context) is wrong, I also found it funny, and I understand why and sympathize with what 'might' be behind it. For all we know, the reporter could just be a random jerk, or be someone with lost family, or just be a real shoe fetishist, all those contexts are possible.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 800]

So we did know they had WMD????

[rehmwa 2]

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So we did know they had WMD????

Wingtips of Moronic Discussion?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

I respectfully disagree. There are lots of acts of violence that I can understand but still feel are wrong. Killing a rapist who attacked your wife is completely understandable, yet still wrong.

You're putting thoughts in my head that aren't there.

I personally don't think that the throwing of the shoe was a violent act at all. It was a form of expression with no intent to cause physical harm. It is therefore not needing the moral justification that other "violent" acts would require.

I was just trying look at the issue assuming that the act was violent. I still think it is justifiable in the same way that our invasion was justifiable. If you take the position that we invaded Iraq to free its people of Sadam's reign, that you are justifying a violent act. I believe the reporter was trying to free his people from Bush's invasion, but not having the most powerful Army in the world at his disposal, he used the only tool available. If you disagree with his goals, that fine, but I think his motive (and justification) are the same.

- Dan G

[shropshire 0]

Wayward Mocasin Deployment

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rehmwa 2]

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I respectfully disagree. ........You're putting thoughts in my head that aren't there.

"Whiny liberals are not Platonic moral absolutists like us tough, manly conservatives."

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It was a form of expression with no intent to cause physical harm

honestly, how can you know? there are 5 billion people out there and that mean 20 billion reasons to throw a shoe. (assuming, on average, 4 independent reasons per person)

all you can say is you have an idea of why you'd do the same in his place - and that, therefore, it's ok

it's the whole 'therefore' part I'm trying to flesh out

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 800]

Watch Me Duck!

you guys are too much....

[FallingOsh 0]

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while the shoe-throwing is "inexcusable". There are some seriously whacked-out people in this world.

Find one instance where I said it was "inexcusable" Go ahead..find one.

I am amazed people like you who opposed the war against SH, who was a violent dictator that gassed his own people, are supporting another violent act.

With a LOT of US help, thanks to R. Reagan:

Alcolac International, a Baltimore chemical manufacturer, shipped large quantities of thiodiglycol (used to make mustard gas) as well as other chemical and biological ingredients, according to a 1989 story in The New York Times.

Nu Kraft Mercantile Corp. of Brooklyn (affiliated with the United Steel and Strip Corporation) also supplied Iraq with huge amounts of thiodiglycol, the Times reported.

In October 1992, the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, which has Senate oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act (EAA), held an inquiry into the U.S. export policy to Iraq prior to the Persian Gulf War. During that hearing it was learned that U.N. inspectors identified many U.S. - manufactured items exported pursuant to licenses issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce that were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and missile delivery system development programs."

Imagine that. You're blaming Saddam's genocide on the US.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[DanG 1]

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I respectfully disagree. ........You're putting thoughts in my head that aren't there.
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"Whiny liberals are not Platonic moral absolutists like us tough, manly conservatives."

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It was a form of expression with no intent to cause physical harm
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honestly, how can you know? there are 5 billion people out there and that mean 20 billion reasons to throw a shoe. (assuming, on average, 4 independent reasons per person)

all you can say is you have an idea of why you'd do the same in his place - and that, therefore, it's ok

it's the whole 'therefore' part I'm trying to flesh out

To quote you regarding the first part:

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my point isn't really partisan, only the fun poking is....

I guess you're right, he could have been trying to kill Bush with a sandal hurled from 20 feet away. That's possible. I think it highly more likely that he was hurling an insult, especially given his statement of, "This is a farewell kiss, you dog."

If he was trying to kill Bush, he was wrong. If he was trying to speak out by using a local symbol of filth and disgust, then he was morally justified.

It all comes down to intent, but if you arguing that his intent was to injure, then I'll concede the moral point. Injuring Bush would have been wrong.

Unfortunately for you, most rational people realize he was not intending to injure, but to insult.

- Dan G

[kallend 2,027]

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while the shoe-throwing is "inexcusable". There are some seriously whacked-out people in this world.

Find one instance where I said it was "inexcusable" Go ahead..find one.

I am amazed people like you who opposed the war against SH, who was a violent dictator that gassed his own people, are supporting another violent act.

With a LOT of US help, thanks to R. Reagan:

Alcolac International, a Baltimore chemical manufacturer, shipped large quantities of thiodiglycol (used to make mustard gas) as well as other chemical and biological ingredients, according to a 1989 story in The New York Times.

Nu Kraft Mercantile Corp. of Brooklyn (affiliated with the United Steel and Strip Corporation) also supplied Iraq with huge amounts of thiodiglycol, the Times reported.

In October 1992, the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, which has Senate oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act (EAA), held an inquiry into the U.S. export policy to Iraq prior to the Persian Gulf War. During that hearing it was learned that U.N. inspectors identified many U.S. - manufactured items exported pursuant to licenses issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce that were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and missile delivery system development programs."

Imagine that. You're blaming Saddam's genocide on the US.

We continued to supply him, fully aware of what he was doing.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 800]

So a simple assault should be permissible if intent is acceptable based on a sliding window of understanding?
Personally I fully understand his intent and it's meaning...and I think Bush did too given the way he was dismissing the SS from stepping up.
It was at the very least in poor taste.
I would think he gets a slap on the wrist at the worst - but I'm not going to be surprised where this may go...

[DanG 1]

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So a simple assault should be permissible if intent is acceptable based on a sliding window of understanding?

Huh? Where did I say that? That is what rehmwa kept trying to put into my mouth, but I never said a simple assault is permissible. What I said was that this incident wasn't an assault at all.

Regarding where this may go, if the Iraqi authorities are smart, they'll let him go with no sentance at all. If they want to undo any credibility that they may have developed over the last year or so, and if they want an escalation of anti-US and anti-government violence (I mean real violence, not "violence") they'll punish him severely.

- Dan G

[normiss 800]

I'm pretty sure that would be seen as assault.
Not battery, but definitely assault.

Aren't they "closed door voting" on what to do about it?

[FallingOsh 0]

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Regarding where this may go, if the Iraqi authorities are smart, they'll let him go with no sentance at all. If they want to undo any credibility that they may have developed over the last year or so, and if they want an escalation of anti-US and anti-government violence (I mean real violence, not "violence") they'll punish him severely.

I think there should be something in the middle. Setting him completely free seems inappropriate. Of course sending him to prison for the rest of his is also completely unacceptable.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[DanG 1]

I suppose under the legal definition of assault you are right. I think if this were a case of one person throwing their shoes at another person in the street (and missing), most real world cops would not bother arresting the shoe thrower for assault.

One of the reasons I find dropzone.com so entertaining and irresistible is threads like this, where we have had people quite sincerely comparing shoe throwing to the Holocaust. There's nothing on reality TV nearly as good as this stuff.

- Dan G

[livendive 8]

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Regarding where this may go, if the Iraqi authorities are smart, they'll let him go with no sentance at all. If they want to undo any credibility that they may have developed over the last year or so, and if they want an escalation of anti-US and anti-government violence (I mean real violence, not "violence") they'll punish him severely.

I think there should be something in the middle. Setting him completely free seems inappropriate. Of course sending him to prison for the rest of his is also completely unacceptable.

I'm down with a punishment fitting the crime. If you threw a shoe at me and missed, I wouldn't expect you to do more than a few days in jail (actually, I suspect the police would laugh at me for even reporting it).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[normiss 800]

I would hope in this day and age yours and Dave's view on how the police see it would in fact be the case....
but it clearly isn't - when I see kids arrested at middle school for bringing a knife to school...to cut their meat..and the one in the news today....kid arrested for stealing his sister's Christmas gifts....

I understand some other countries' even less...

[shropshire 0]

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I think there should be something in the middle. Setting him completely free seems inappropriate. Of course sending him to prison for the rest of his is also completely unacceptable.

Bush or the Sandal Slinger?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[FallingOsh 0]

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Regarding where this may go, if the Iraqi authorities are smart, they'll let him go with no sentance at all. If they want to undo any credibility that they may have developed over the last year or so, and if they want an escalation of anti-US and anti-government violence (I mean real violence, not "violence") they'll punish him severely.

I think there should be something in the middle. Setting him completely free seems inappropriate. Of course sending him to prison for the rest of his is also completely unacceptable.

I'm down with a punishment fitting the crime. If you threw a shoe at me and missed, I wouldn't expect you to do more than a few days in jail (actually, I suspect the police would laugh at me for even reporting it).

Blues,
Dave

They probably would laugh. They'd also laugh if you reported someone prank calling your house. Try doing that to the White House and note the different response.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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I think there should be something in the middle. Setting him completely free seems inappropriate. Of course sending him to prison for the rest of his is also completely unacceptable.

Bush or the Sandal Slinger?

Blair

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Stay positive and love your life.

[shropshire 0]

- him too

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rehmwa 2]

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So a simple assault should be permissible if intent is acceptable based on a sliding window of understanding?

Huh? Where did I say that?

reminds me of a quote - "the only thing in common with all your failed relationships is you"

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Unfortunately for you, most rational people realize he was not intending to injure, but to insult.

I doubt the guy had any prior intent at all, I suspect he just got mad and threw the shoe. Much like flipping some idiot driver on the road. Or punching a drunk at the bar that won't leave your friends alone. (that was for Kallend so he can call GWB a drunk)

I doubt very much there was any "higher" meaning or "lower" purpose to the act - no matter how much each camp really wishes for one or the other.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

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Unfortunately for you, most rational people realize he was not intending to injure, but to insult.

I doubt the guy had any prior intent at all, I suspect he just got mad and threw the shoe. Much like flipping some idiot driver on the road. Or punching a drunk at the bar that won't leave your friends alone. (that was for Kallend so he can call GWB a drunk)

.

You don't have to be nice just because it's Christmas.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.