Congress gets a pay raise

[normiss 851]

Our perception of time and temperature on this planet is amazingly short sighted over the course of our existence here.

Those fuckers don't deserve a raise the rest of the population could not and will not typically see.
Given pay for and benefits for life to boot????
They are not there to represent us by no means whatsoever.

Those of you thinking they do are sadly mistaken.


This is nothing but corporate greed from a political perspective.

Time to vote them all out! We can't afford our government NOW!!!

[Rstanley0312 1]

They should lead by example and hold the raise. Bill.. you are right, it will not fix anything but it's called leadership and yes it is an emotional response but as someone who works in the stock market I can tell you that emotion drives our economy right now. This is garbage and should have been stopped. They (dems & GOP) had a big hand in causing all of this mess yet it seems that they go along almost blameless. No it's not just the GOP's fault and no it's not just the Dems fault. All are to blame along with the corporations who were greedy and the consumers that have no responsibility for their actions. Attitude reflects leadership and I would think that congress would see that this was stupid to allow an automatic raise.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[normiss 851]

cricky

[Ron 10]

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No. I'm telling you IT DOESN'T MATTER. We're like the crew of a plane with three engines on fire arguing over whether or not the dispatcher is an asshole or not. Solve the problem, land the plane - and then get emotional over the dispatcher

The thing is some see the automatic pay raises as part of the issue. Govt spending is out of control and these folks just get automatic raises out of the public coffers.

Pay for performance...IMO. The economy does well, they get raises, it goes south, they take pay cuts. My whole organization just took a pay cut, CEO down...All but the hourly employees which I think was the right move. Plus the 401k match has been removed.

I make good choices that puts my company on the right road, I get raises and bonuses. I make incorrect choices to position the company for the future, I take a pay cut.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[normiss 851]

booyah

Exactly.

[billvon 3,069]

>You really think they have no more responsibility in all this than the
>dispatcher in your analogy?

The dispatcher sent them out with a fucked up plane and did nothing about it; they expected the flight crew to just deal with it.

Congress removed protections from investment instruments and trusted bankers to police themselves.

Both are culpable. In both cases, the first step is to FIX THE PROBLEM. Add right rudder. Put out the fires in the engines. Land the plane. Get the engines fixed. THEN start bitching about the guy who didn't stop you from flying the plane in the first place.

[billvon 3,069]

>The economy does well, they get raises, it goes south, they take pay cuts.

If the government were given control of the economy I would agree with you. Do you advocate that?

[akarunway 1]

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>The economy does well, they get raises, it goes south, they take pay cuts.

If the government were given control of the economy I would agree with you. Do you advocate that?

Jesus H. Christ. Ya wanna start w/ the fed? Tell me the govt. doesn't have a BIG say in the economy. But they just do what they are told from the people really in power. A couple phone calls around the world and shit sinks or swims. In a NYS. You best believe it.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[micro 0]

  Quote

>You really think they have no more responsibility in all this than the
>dispatcher in your analogy?

The dispatcher sent them out with a fucked up plane and did nothing about it; they expected the flight crew to just deal with it.

Congress removed protections from investment instruments and trusted bankers to police themselves.

Both are culpable. In both cases, the first step is to FIX THE PROBLEM. Add right rudder. Put out the fires in the engines. Land the plane. Get the engines fixed. THEN start bitching about the guy who didn't stop you from flying the plane in the first place.

The problem w/ that Bill, is that the very people who need, in part, to be adding right rudder are too busy admiring their new raises that they don't fucking deserve. That is part of the problem! They should have stopped this auto raise bullshit and put their money where their mouth is.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Ron 10]

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If the government were given control of the economy I would agree with you. Do you advocate that?

You assume that the Govt has no control. But in reality govt has control over many things that do affect the economy; Spending and taxation for starters. You cannot run an effective organization if you spend more than you take in....That is a sure fire way to bankrupt a company and Congress getting a pay raise when the economy is headed South is a perfect example of such unaligned actions.

Besides, even if you want to claim that Congress has no control over the economy then I don't think you would be asking for more regulations on business.

I don't like regulations on business, I agree with Adam Smith's "invisible hand." But, I do recognize that Congress is doing a terrible job controlling spending and that does impact the health of an economy.

So either way you want to look at it: Congress *should* have put regulations in place, or they *should* have controlled spending, or they *should* have raised taxes to pay for the extra programs.

I don't see how anyone can claim Congress has no control over the economy...Care to explain your reasoning?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[marks2065 0]

  Quote

  Quote

>You really think they have no more responsibility in all this than the
>dispatcher in your analogy?

The dispatcher sent them out with a fucked up plane and did nothing about it; they expected the flight crew to just deal with it.

Congress removed protections from investment instruments and trusted bankers to police themselves.

Both are culpable. In both cases, the first step is to FIX THE PROBLEM. Add right rudder. Put out the fires in the engines. Land the plane. Get the engines fixed. THEN start bitching about the guy who didn't stop you from flying the plane in the first place.

The problem w/ that Bill, is that the very people who need, in part, to be adding right rudder are too busy admiring their new raises that they don't fucking deserve. That is part of the problem! They should have stopped this auto raise bullshit and put their money where their mouth is.

the elected ones in DC have, for a long time, shown that they can't be trusted with the power to govern. Leadership is standing up and setting an example, and congress has again shown poor leadership. the checks and balances set in our constitution does not have a check set in it for greed.

[billvon 3,069]

> is that the very people who need, in part, to be adding right rudder are
>too busy admiring their new raises that they don't fucking deserve.

That's the emotional part again. "FUCK THEM! Don't give them any money!"

You're right; they don't deserve a raise. And that doesn't matter one bit. Want to make a real change? Vote them all out of office next election. Meanwhile, land the plane. That's what will help the situation right now.

>They should have stopped this auto raise bullshit and put their money
>where their mouth is.

So they should NOT have done anything, and then they would have earned their pay? Or perhaps each senator should have given that $4700 raise to the car companies. That would be the ultimate politically correct gesture - it would make you feel good, get them re-elected - and do absolutely nothing.

[kallend 2,106]

There's some irony in seeing all those who year after year advocate less government and less intrusive regulations now blaming the government for letting it happen.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[phildthedildo 0]

GEE WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE

[Rstanley0312 1]

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There's some irony in seeing all those who year after year advocate less government and less intrusive regulations now blaming the government for letting it happen.

??? this makes no sense..... yes we advocate less government because they already have too much power! It's not about letting it happen it's about what power they used to manipulate outcomes. They did not "let" it happen...... they CAUSED the whole mess! The government has proven time and time again that whatever they touch goes to shit. Name one successful government program..... public schools? nope SSI? nope Welfare? nope etc. they all are in bad shape and of course need more money.....

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[nerdgirl 0]

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The government has proven time and time again that whatever they touch goes to shit. Name one successful government program..... public schools? nope SSI? nope Welfare? nope etc. they all are in bad shape and of course need more money.....

From world-changing to mundane, there are thousands of successful government programs. A few off the top of my head:

Manhattan Project

Eradication of smallpox, technically, a WHO program

Creation of the internet – from the initial ARPA program that created it to the NSF program that expanded it

Over the horizon radar

The original GI bill

Prevention of thalidomide exposure in the 1960s by the FDA

Doppler radar … heck, the whole National Weather Service

Uniform highway traffic signage. Whether you’re in Maine, Hawaii, or Wyoming, traffic signage is uniform. It wasn’t always that way. And it isn’t that way in all countries. Most mimic’d us. A National Traffic Board program achieved that.

You do recognize that the US military is a government program, yes? Do you include that in your characterization as described above?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 3,069]

>So either way you want to look at it: Congress *should* have put
>regulations in place, or they *should* have controlled spending, or they
>*should* have raised taxes to pay for the extra programs.

Fair enough. I would actually prefer that Congress stays out of the economy to the greatest extent possible, and that they balance their budget every year

>I don't see how anyone can claim Congress has no control over
>the economy...Care to explain your reasoning?

They affect the economy via their taxation programs, their spending programs, their decisions on wars, acquisition of territory, trade embargoes etc etc. However, overall they have little _control_ of it.

Look at the Fed. They try to control the economy via changing various lending rates, but that's been shown to have little impact overall. Dropping the prime lending rate as much as you can does not stop a recession. At best you can say "well, it would have been much worse if we hadn't done that." And while that was true initially, the changes in lending rates are now something that investors automatically factor into their investment strategies, so that effect has been greatly eroded.

The economy is an inherently chaotic system with built-in features that prevent control by any one entity. This is a good thing, as we learned after seeing what happens when one large entity (like Standard Oil) tries to control their part of it.

Think of it as akin to hurricane preparation. You can build good levees, choose a location for your town, put pumps in, improve drainage etc to reduce the impact of a hurricane. And we certainly affect the weather by emitting CO2, farming desert areas, cutting down forests, draining the Colorado River and creating new seas (and golf courses!) in the desert.

But even though we have a lot of effect on the weather, and can plan for its bad effects - we really don't have much control over it.

[Rstanley0312 1]

From world-changing to mundane, there are thousands of successful government programs. A few off the top of my head:

Manhattan Project

Eradication of smallpox, technically, a WHO program

Creation of the internet – from the initial ARPA program that created it to the NSF program that expanded it

Over the horizon radar

The original GI bill

Prevention of thalidomide exposure in the 1960s by the FDA

Doppler radar … heck, the whole National Weather Service

Uniform highway traffic signage. Whether you’re in Maine, Hawaii, or Wyoming, traffic signage is uniform. It wasn’t always that way. And it isn’t that way in all countries. Most mimic’d us. A National Traffic Board program achieved that.

You do recognize that the US military is a government program, yes? Do you include that in your characterization as described above?

Wow..... I just got kicked square didn't I? At the same time you see the difference in what you are denoting at government programs and what I am. I am not saying it does nothing good... I mean SSI has helped people and that in and of it self could be deemed worth it but at the same time when the government runs any program long term it is always in a bad state and need ing more money. Yes the military is a service of the government and one that is successful becasue the military has a lot of say in what they do or get funding for. My point is that 99% of the people in Washington "representing" us are lawyers and that is what we do not need. They talk in cicles with no solutions and spend money.... our money. I really would like to see people that know business and economy to represent my interests. I don't give my money to institutions that have no clue how to manage it and I do not give to charities that take a huge cut for themselves. It should be the same with our government. We need people that look out for us and our best interests but we don't have that. You can say it is our right to vote them in or our but is it really? We are stuck in a two party system and people do not believe that another party may have a shot. People are so stuck on "left" or "right" and refuse to see anything else. As long as the majority of people think this way we are in a world of hurt. I think that would be true with Obama or McCain. That is why I voted Libertarian!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[kallend 2,106]

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  Quote

There's some irony in seeing all those who year after year advocate less government and less intrusive regulations now blaming the government for letting it happen.

??? this makes no sense..... yes we advocate less government because they already have too much power! It's not about letting it happen it's about what power they used to manipulate outcomes. They did not "let" it happen...... they CAUSED the whole mess! ....

The government did not create "credit default swaps", the government did not force homebuyers to buy houses they couldn't afford, the government did not make mortgage brokers push NINJA loans, the government did not rate junk financial instruments "AAA", the government did not force Wall Street banks to invest in this junk, the government did not force GM to invest in factories to build Hummers, the government did not force anyone to invest in Madoff's ponzi scheme...

The mess was caused by greedy capitalists, not the government.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

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Yes the military is a service of the government and one that is successful becasue the military has a lot of say in what they do or get funding for.

The military IS the government.

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My point is that 99% of the people in Washington "representing" us are lawyers and that is what we do not need.

We have the government we elected.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rstanley0312 1]

My point is that 99% of the people in Washington "representing" us are lawyers and that is what we do not need.

[kallend 2,106]

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My point is that 99% of the people in Washington "representing" us are lawyers and that is what we do not need.

We have the government we elected.

[nerdgirl 0]

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We are stuck in a two party system and people do not believe that another party may have a shot. People are so stuck on "left" or "right" and refuse to see anything else. As long as the majority of people think this way we are in a world of hurt. I think that would be true with Obama or McCain. That is why I voted Libertarian!

Have you read Andrew Bacevich's The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism ?

Bacevich, an IR prof at Boston University ... he's also a retired US Army Colonel ... writes on the issues on the problems of the 2-party system from a national defense/American foreign policy perspective. I can't find a good excerpt quickly on the web specifically related to criticism of the 2-party system. Here's a video linked through the "Daily [Ron] Paul" website (the oirgin of interview is PBS).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying