kallend 2,106 #76 December 22, 2008 Quote Quote If skydiving rigs were used in 17,000 murders each year, and some 2 million other crimes, I would expect the government to take a serious interest in all rig transactions. What limits will you allow on the 1st? The 4th? The 14th, 15th? I guess you want to have background checks to vote then? I don't think 17,000 people were ever killed in any year by folks shouting "fire" in theaters, but it IS a restriction, and a sensible one, on the 1st. And checks on voter eligibility are a priority of the GOP. GUNS are used in some 17,000 murders each year, and in millions of other crimes. And that is the flaw in your argument.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #77 December 22, 2008 Quote Quote I guess you want to have background checks to vote then? I guess not everybody sees voting and owning a gun as identical issues. owning a gun is part of the Constitution. That same document was not nearly so straightforward when it came to voting rights, oddly enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,405 #78 December 22, 2008 At NO time have I said the government had to approve the sale... but, there are restrictions. Can an FFL dealer sell a gun to a felon? Can they sell one to someone who has a history of mental disease? etc., etc. Quote OK so tho fix that you think each car purchase should have to be done through a dealer? That is what you are proposing. That is NOT what I'm proposing. But don't you have to take ownership of that car and get it tagged in your name at a tag agency? What I am proposing; is that if you sell a gun, you download an "Ownership Transfer Form" and have the new owner take formal legal ownership of the weapon. Just like a car... That's it. Quote Read up on the 1934 NFA act Familiar with it, But, did go back and revisit it - pertains to Class II weapons... I'll share an interesting ditty with you on my revisit.. Quote While NFA weapons as a whole are perceived by the American public as dangerous, their use in crime is exceedingly rare. Legally-owned (ie, NFA-registered) machine guns have been used in only two murders since 1934, one of which was committed by a police officer.[10] A previous director of the ATF testified before Congress that fewer than ten registered machine guns (out of over 240,000 in the nation) have ever been used in any type of crime (including nonviolent offenses such as failing to notify ATF of address changes, etc.). The criminal use of other legally-owned NFA weapons is similarly rare. The Title II weapons used in prominent crimes, such the AK-47s used in the North Hollywood shootout of 1997, have universally been illegally-owned or illegally-converted weapons. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act Quote 1986 Hughes Amendment Not sure why you referred me to this as it has both good and bad things in it. But, if it has to do with Class III weapons (machine guns/silencers), that doesn't preclude you from buying one, it just means you have to fill out the the Form 4. It has to be filled out in duplicate by your Class 3 dealer, showing the current owner of the weapon and address, your name and address, description of the weapon and serial number, etc.. You're given the forms, along with a set of fingerprint cards and pay the fee. What's the big deal? You're a law-abiding citizen, right?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #79 December 22, 2008 Quote Quote Quote If skydiving rigs were used in 17,000 murders each year, and some 2 million other crimes, I would expect the government to take a serious interest in all rig transactions. What limits will you allow on the 1st? The 4th? The 14th, 15th? I guess you want to have background checks to vote then? I don't think 17,000 people were ever killed in any year by folks shouting "fire" in theaters, but it IS a restriction, and a sensible one, on the 1st. And checks on voter eligibility are a priority of the GOP. GUNS are used in some 17,000 murders each year, and in millions of other crimes. And that is the flaw in your argument. And it is said that gun owners prevent or stop as many or more. Take the guns away from the legal owners (which is all you will do) and the number would most likely go up. Because the criminals will not register or turn them in. So the flaw is yours....."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #80 December 22, 2008 Quote At NO time have I said the government had to approve the sale... but, there are restrictions. Can an FFL dealer sell a gun to a felon? Can they sell one to someone who has a history of mental disease? etc., etc. Quote OK so tho fix that you think each car purchase should have to be done through a dealer? That is what you are proposing. That is NOT what I'm proposing. But don't you have to take ownership of that car and get it tagged in your name at a tag agency? What I am proposing; is that if you sell a gun, you download an "Ownership Transfer Form" and have the new owner take formal legal ownership of the weapon. Just like a car... That's it. Quote Read up on the 1934 NFA act Familiar with it, But, did go back and revisit it - pertains to Class II weapons... I'll share an interesting ditty with you on my revisit.. Quote While NFA weapons as a whole are perceived by the American public as dangerous, their use in crime is exceedingly rare. Legally-owned (ie, NFA-registered) machine guns have been used in only two murders since 1934, one of which was committed by a police officer.[10] A previous director of the ATF testified before Congress that fewer than ten registered machine guns (out of over 240,000 in the nation) have ever been used in any type of crime (including nonviolent offenses such as failing to notify ATF of address changes, etc.). The criminal use of other legally-owned NFA weapons is similarly rare. The Title II weapons used in prominent crimes, such the AK-47s used in the North Hollywood shootout of 1997, have universally been illegally-owned or illegally-converted weapons. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act Quote 1986 Hughes Amendment Not sure why you referred me to this as it has both good and bad things in it. But, if it has to do with Class III weapons (machine guns/silencers), that doesn't preclude you from buying one, it just means you have to fill out the the Form 4. It has to be filled out in duplicate by your Class 3 dealer, showing the current owner of the weapon and address, your name and address, description of the weapon and serial number, etc.. You're given the forms, along with a set of fingerprint cards and pay the fee. What's the big deal? You're a law-abiding citizen, right? No one has commented on the on Iowa's permit to purchase. Back ground check is done ahead of time and P2P sales not recorded . You know you are selling to someone who the state has said legally can purchase??"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,405 #81 December 22, 2008 Quote Take the guns away from the legal owners (which is all you will do) and the number would most likely go up. Because the criminals will not register or turn them in. So the flaw is yours..... God, I am so tired of hearing that empty rhetoric. The Dingo's got my baby, The Dingo's got my baby!! Nobody's going to take away your damn guns. I've got and had more than the average SOB over the past 30 years and no "Black Booted thug" has come knocking on my door saying, "ve haff come to take ze veapons." The legal owner's get to keep their guns and the criminals who cannot provide title, lose theirs. Over time, criminals lose their arsenal and there are more legal owners than criminals carrying guns. Did you know that in the US, there are some 37,500 gun purchases of which ~17,000 of those are handguns EVERY DAY. Did you also know that 30% of those initial purchases are re-sold using the (oops, some folks don't like the word, "loophole") Let's call it the secondary market so as not to offend anyone. Anyway, 30% of those weapons are sold in the secondary market within the first year. No trail.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #82 December 22, 2008 Quote Quote Take the guns away from the legal owners (which is all you will do) and the number would most likely go up. Because the criminals will not register or turn them in. So the flaw is yours..... God, I am so tired of hearing that empty rhetoric. The Dingo's got my baby, The Dingo's got my baby!! Nobody's going to take away your damn guns. I've got and had more than the average SOB over the past 30 years and no "Black Booted thug" has come knocking on my door asking to see my "veapons und my papers." As it should be The legal owner's get to keep their guns and the criminals who cannot provide title, lose theirs. Over time, criminals lose their arsenal and there are more legal owners than criminals carrying guns. Good, and I dont want the gov to know I have one either, lest they change their minds some day Did you know that in the US, there are some 37,500 gun purchases of which ~17,000 of those are handguns EVERY DAY. Did you also know that 30% of those initial purchases are re-sold using the (oops, some folks don't like the word, "loophole") Let's call it the secondary market so as not to offend anyone. And how many of these "lophole" sales are to illegal buyers? Anyway, 30% of those weapons are sold in the secondary market within the first year. No trail.Good No loop hole You just dont like unregistered guns. I dont agree with you. I am tired of your empty rhetoric as well."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #83 December 22, 2008 Quote [ GUNS are used in some 17,000 murders each year, and in millions of other crimes. And that is the flaw in your argument. Not in America. Per the Uniform Crime Reports the numbers were 10,086 in 2007 and 10,177 in 2006. While not good it's a whole lot less than the 42,642 people killed in 2006 traffic deaths and 365,000 who lost their lives to poor diet and obesity in 2000. It's just like the budget. We need to focus on the biggest problems first and firearms murders are way down the list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #84 December 22, 2008 Quote Did you know that in the US, there are some 37,500 gun purchases of which ~17,000 of those are handguns EVERY DAY. Did you also know that 30% of those initial purchases are re-sold using the (oops, some folks don't like the word, "loophole") Let's call it the secondary market so as not to offend anyone. Anyway, 30% of those weapons are sold in the secondary market within the first year. No trail. It's a felony to make straw purchases or engage in the business of selling firearms without a license. A Form 4473 gets filled out every time a licensee makes a transfer. If 30% of the guns sold were ending up in criminal hands, the government would be following the 4473 trail from the manufacturers to the first retail purchasers and prosecuting them for those felonies. That's not happening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,405 #85 December 22, 2008 Quote Did you know that in the US, there are some 37,500 gun purchases of which ~17,000 of those are handguns EVERY DAY. Did you also know that 30% of those initial purchases are re-sold using the (oops, some folks don't like the word, "loophole") Let's call it the secondary market so as not to offend anyone. And how many of these "loophole" sales are to illegal buyers? EXACTLY!! Whew, my work here is done.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,405 #86 December 22, 2008 Quote It's a felony to make straw purchases or engage in the business of selling firearms without a license. A Form 4473 gets filled out every time a licensee makes a transfer. That is incorrect. Form 4473 (Yellow Sheet), must be filled out when a person males an initial purchase from an FFL. If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473. However, some states are beginning to implement individual sellers to sell through dealers and use the Form 4473. But, that has its issues also because the 4473 doesn't go anywhere. So if a crime occurs with a specific gun, where does an LEO go?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #87 December 22, 2008 Quote Quote It's a felony to make straw purchases or engage in the business of selling firearms without a license. A Form 4473 gets filled out every time a licensee makes a transfer. That is incorrect. It's correct. The 4473 is filled out every time a _licensee_ makes a transfer. Import/export, manufacturer, or dealer. Quote But, that has its issues also because the 4473 doesn't go anywhere. So if a crime occurs with a specific gun, where does an LEO go? The LEO goes to the manufacturer, distributor, dealer, and first retail purchaser. Multiple crime guns from the same original retail purchaser without a reasonable explanation (sold the whole collection when Grandpa died; filed a police report for burglary) lead to a felony investigation for making straw purchases or dealing without a license. Obviously it's imperfect, as any law will be in a country which eschews prior restraint and protects its citizens from potential government abuses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #88 December 22, 2008 Quote Nobody's going to take away your damn guns. There's more proof in recent events (California, New Orleans) to support the opposite of this claim. And since you've yet to show any upside to the change, there's no reason to move ahead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #89 December 23, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote If skydiving rigs were used in 17,000 murders each year, and some 2 million other crimes, I would expect the government to take a serious interest in all rig transactions. What limits will you allow on the 1st? The 4th? The 14th, 15th? I guess you want to have background checks to vote then? I don't think 17,000 people were ever killed in any year by folks shouting "fire" in theaters, but it IS a restriction, and a sensible one, on the 1st. And checks on voter eligibility are a priority of the GOP. GUNS are used in some 17,000 murders each year, and in millions of other crimes. And that is the flaw in your argument. And it is said that gun owners prevent or stop as many or more. .... So the flaw is yours..... What is "said" and what IS TRUE and PROVABLE are not the same thing at all. Claiming a flaw in someone's position based on "what is said" is flimsy in the extreme.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #90 December 23, 2008 Quote Nobody's going to take away your damn guns. Right. The US is NOTHING like the UK. The US is nothing like Australia. The US is NOTHING like California (where there were problems with SKSes that got reclassified). The US is nothing like Louisiana. Quote Anyway, 30% of those weapons are sold in the secondary market within the first year. No trail. So what. As a white guy my chance of being killed by one would be .003% if I had an average chance of being involved in the illegal drug trade (except I don't do drugs), joining a youth gang (I'm too old for that), etc. It's basically zero. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #91 December 23, 2008 Quote Quote [ GUNS are used in some 17,000 murders each year, and in millions of other crimes. And that is the flaw in your argument. Not in America. Per the Uniform Crime Reports the numbers were 10,086 in 2007 and 10,177 in 2006. Oh, that's OK then. ONLY 10,086 murders with guns. Not a problem. Quote While not good it's a whole lot less than the 42,642 people killed in 2006 traffic deaths and 365,000 who lost their lives to poor diet and obesity in 2000. If people want to eat themselves to death, that's a whole lot different than being shot. And, since it seems to have escaped your attention, cars are not the weapon of choice of the typical murderer - guns are. I'd have no problem regulating guns inthe same way cars are regulated.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #92 December 23, 2008 Quote Quote Did you know that in the US, there are some 37,500 gun purchases of which ~17,000 of those are handguns EVERY DAY. Did you also know that 30% of those initial purchases are re-sold using the (oops, some folks don't like the word, "loophole") Let's call it the secondary market so as not to offend anyone. And how many of these "loophole" sales are to illegal buyers? EXACTLY!! Whew, my work here is done. Nice try but, you gotta a lot of work to do here fella"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #93 December 23, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote If skydiving rigs were used in 17,000 murders each year, and some 2 million other crimes, I would expect the government to take a serious interest in all rig transactions. What limits will you allow on the 1st? The 4th? The 14th, 15th? I guess you want to have background checks to vote then? I don't think 17,000 people were ever killed in any year by folks shouting "fire" in theaters, but it IS a restriction, and a sensible one, on the 1st. And checks on voter eligibility are a priority of the GOP. GUNS are used in some 17,000 murders each year, and in millions of other crimes. And that is the flaw in your argument. And it is said that gun owners prevent or stop as many or more. .... So the flaw is yours..... What is "said" and what IS TRUE and PROVABLE are not the same thing at all. Claiming a flaw in someone's position based on "what is said" is flimsy in the extreme. Whew, exactly Thanks kallend now that you have admitted it my work here is done"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,405 #94 December 23, 2008 Quote It's correct. The 4473 is filled out every time a _licensee_ makes a transfer. Import/export, manufacturer, or dealer. The licensee IS the FFL. The 4473 specifically states, "This form only should be used for sales or transfers where the seller is licensed under 18 USC S 923." The initial purchaser is referred to as the, "Transferee." Read the form.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #95 December 23, 2008 Quote And, since it seems to have escaped your attention, cars are not the weapon of choice of the typical murderer - guns are. Dead is dead. As long as I die quickly it doesn't matter to me whether I get run down by an SUV or shot dead with a gun. Since I'm six times more likely to be killed by some nutter in traffic with a car, I worry more about that. Quote I'd have no problem regulating guns inthe same way cars are regulated. I agree. No limits on type types we can own, background checks, or national registration except for ones we want to use in public for which we'll be granted an inexpensive license valid in all 50 states for the next 10 years following a simple practical and written test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #96 December 23, 2008 Quote The US is nothing like Louisiana. Indeed. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090105/thompson/print Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #97 December 23, 2008 Quote All bans, calibers, types of weapons aside, Are you seriously going to tell me that you would have a problem with having to register a gun or legally transfer ownership to maintain a chain of ownership just as you have to with your vehicle would impinge on your rights to own any weapon or caliber under the constitution? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Fed.gov has NO business knowing what private property I do or do not own and how I *CHOOSE* to sell it. I remind you what happened with the Sullivan laws in NYC and the AWB in Cali, not to mentinon New Orleans during Katrina. With that said - any sale I *DID* make would have a bill of sale, for MY records, not the governments. Quote Do you guys that are digging in your heels for the right to ownership feel that its some government plot to rid you of the second amendment and your right to own guns if we formalize legal transfer? Cause if you do... you're actually making it harder on yourselves and partly responsible for all these errant laws that mean squat and force control, rather than allowing for responsibility. And the reverse of that is that the people calling for national registration makes things like the NYC, California and New Orleans confiscations easier to implement. Quote Every time someone is murdered with a weapon used that cannot be traced to the offender, that family just became a proponent of gun control and endorse the stupid ass laws and new laws that aren't doing shit and only pressing you guys further into your position. Let's become champions of gun responsibility by recommending a chain of ownership from cradle to grave. How are you going to get the criminals in on it, pray tell?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #98 December 23, 2008 Quote Quote Since I'm six times more likely to be killed by some nutter in traffic with a car, I worry more about that. . www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gEmTNUBTKTgCNcd9ZgYJnCNlbPOwD958G9PG0 I wonder why this nutter in traffic didn't use his truck.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #99 December 23, 2008 Quote I guess not everybody sees voting and owning a gun as identical issues. Both are protected in the Constitution. The 2nd was in the original."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 851 #100 December 23, 2008 Aren't you a physics professor? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
