Is There A Gunshow Loophole?

[Ron 10]

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Now its going to take some time; but there needs to be a transference of ownership in which there are less multiple offense criminals that have guns than those who are law -biding citizens of the community.

Then you need to control the criminals, not the objects.

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Eventually only law-abiding citizens will have the guns and the criminals will not. Crimes involving guns will be solved faster, because eventually, every gun will have a chain of title of ownership.

Criminals get guns in many ways. One of them is stealing them.

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http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=8100189&version=6&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

His weapon was recovered at the scene and later determined to be stolen during a separate offense in Terrell, according to police.

Drugs are illegal, yet I bet on any given weekend at a DZ we all know where we could get some.

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Little Oklahoma wisdom for ya..

If you always do; what you've always done.
You'll always get; what you've always had.

Yes, we have had gun laws that have only made it more difficult for legal owners...Criminals have had no such problems getting weapons.

So if we keep trying to make it harder to legally own a weapon, we will "get what we have always had"....Which is more criminals with weapons.

Criminals will not register, criminals have no issue converting a semi auto to full auto, criminals have no issue stealing a firearm.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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John,

The goal is this... Now its going to take some time; but there needs to be a transference of ownership in which there are less multiple offense criminals that have guns than those who are law -biding citizens of the community. The other goal would be to shift the balance of gun hatred to one of gun respect.

Over time (perhaps 10 years), weapons the police pull off the street that are not part of the national registry get tossed in the smelter. Eventually only law-abiding citizens will have the guns and the criminals will not. Crimes involving guns will be solved faster, because eventually, every gun will have a chain of title of ownership. Then, not every gun owner will will be perceived as the bad guy.

Unless the same criminals who import hundreds of thousands of pounds of illegal drugs each year also include a few guns in the mix. I'd expect many of the imports to be high-powered military designs, either diverted from their "lawful" markets or proven simple designs (like AK47s and Sten guns) that get manufactured elsewhere.

Or local people start making them, like the resistance did in WWII except now we have CNC equipment to make things easier. An open bolt submachine gun is the easiest repeater to make - just look at guns like the Sten and PPS-42

Personally, I'd rather the criminals be running around with cheap .25s than making or importing more interesting guns like the UK yardies who get caught with Uzis (full auto), Mac 10s (full auto), and Glocks.

Plenty of countries like Jamaica (with one of the world's highest murder rate in spite of some of the strictest gun control) and the UK (with reasonable crime rates, but the bans have no real effect on the illegal guns circulating: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap69.htm) have shown that controlling legal guns does little to limit the supply of illegal ones to criminals. America isn't going to be any different.

If you want to fix the problem, figure out how to get blacks up to the same socio-economic level as whites. While only 13% of the total population they're responsible for nearly half the murders and die at six times the white rate. Kellerman asserted in "Handgun Regulations, Crimes, Assaults, and Homicide: A Tale of Two Cities" that high gun ownership caused higher murder rates in Seattle than Vancouver which share similar aggregate demographics, but neglected the makeup of ethnic minorities and socio-economic data. The raw statistics showed a white murder rate of 6.2 per 100,000 in Seattle versus 6.4 in Vancouver, with the difference coming entirely from the high black (36.6) and Hispanic (26.9) murder rates. Studies show homicide rates increasing with economic disparity. The 2000 census shows median black and hispanic per-capita income about half the white population's (18,328 and 17,216 vs. 35,641). With whites not killing each other at a higher rate in Seattle, minorities killing each other at a high rate due to the factors that go with a vast income difference makes a lot more sense as the explanation.

[BIGUN 1,395]

And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,395]

And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,395]

And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[akarunway 1]

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LEGAL person to person sales are NOT a 'loophole'.

Technically, that is correct.
From the "legal" perspective.
The issue is abuse of that legality.

According to the NIJ, 56% of arrested armed criminals said they got their guns from person-to-person sales. Looks like a big loophole to me.

And straw purchase.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Ron 10]

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And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo?

1. Violent criminals go to jail and stay in jail.
Use violence? Get locked up. Have a gun with you during a crime? You *serve* 10 years. Use a gun to commit the crime? You do 20. Shoot it? Life, no parole.

2. Allow carry in all 50 States plus DC with a permit from any one State just like a drivers license. The carry permit will require an actual practical test but one that cannot be more difficult than the police test for the State of issue.

3. Keep NICS and keep the data private. Improve reporting to the system. Mandate that people diagnosed with violent tendencies are reported by care providers, but provide a real method to have your name removed from the list.

4. Remove "Gun Free" zones...How many shootings have happened at schools where guns are not allowed, vs how many have happened at gun shows where they are everywhere?

5. Remove Bans, one gun a mth BS...ect.

Basically punish actions, not items.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[akarunway 1]

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And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo?

1. Violent criminals go to jail and stay in jail.
Use violence? Get locked up. Have a gun with you during a crime? You *serve* 10 years. Use a gun to commit the crime? You do 20. Shoot it? Life, no parole.

2. Allow carry in all 50 States plus DC with a permit from any one State just like a drivers license. The carry permit will require an actual practical test but one that cannot be more difficult than the police test for the State of issue.

3. Keep NICS and keep the data private. Improve reporting to the system. Mandate that people diagnosed with violent tendencies are reported by care providers, but provide a real method to have your name removed from the list.

4. Remove "Gun Free" zones...How many shootings have happened at schools where guns are not allowed, vs how many have happened at gun shows where they are everywhere?

5. Remove Bans, one gun a mth BS...ect.

Basically punish actions, not items.

Agreed. 100%

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[mnealtx 0]

While your suggestions are good and I agree with them, it involves personal responsibility, so it'll never pass Congress (especially this one).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BIGUN 1,395]

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1. Violent criminals go to jail and stay in jail.
Use violence? Get locked up. Have a gun with you during a crime? You *serve* 10 years. Use a gun to commit the crime? You do 20. Shoot it? Life, no parole.

2. Allow carry in all 50 States plus DC with a permit from any one State just like a drivers license. The carry permit will require an actual practical test but one that cannot be more difficult than the police test for the State of issue.

3. Keep NICS and keep the data private. Improve reporting to the system. Mandate that people diagnosed with violent tendencies are reported by care providers, but provide a real method to have your name removed from the list.

4. Remove "Gun Free" zones...How many shootings have happened at schools where guns are not allowed, vs how many have happened at gun shows where they are everywhere?

5. Remove Bans, one gun a mth BS...ect.

Basically punish actions, not items.

I agree with each of your items 100%.
I am a strong proponent of #1 and think Judges should have a little matrix to go by:
Felony: Five years - no parole.
Felony with a gun: 10 years added to the five years - no parole.
Felony with a gun where shots were fired: Another five years - 20 total - no parole.

But, you didn't address the private individual to private individual sales.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mnealtx 0]

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And straw purchase.

Like when Sarah Brady (yes, that Sarah Brady) bought a deer rifle for her son?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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But, you didn't address the private individual to private individual sales.

Why should it BE addressed? Name *one* other thing that the mere sale of (*SALE*, not use of in public) involves government approval.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BIGUN 1,395]

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Why should it BE addressed? Name *one* other thing that the mere sale of (*SALE*, not use of in public)

I'm a little confused, Mike.
Are you saying guns sold aren't used in public?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mnealtx 0]

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Why should it BE addressed? Name *one* other thing that the mere sale of (*SALE*, not use of in public)

I'm a little confused, Mike.
Are you saying guns sold aren't used in public?

No, re-read what I said. Why does the government need to APPROVE a legal property transaction between two private citizens?

If I sell you a vehicle, the government doesn't get involved until/unless you take it on public roads. Why the difference?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 4]

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If I sell you a vehicle, the government doesn't get involved until/unless you take it on public roads. Why the difference?

Oh? So what you're saying is that you're for registration, taxing and licensing of guns and owners (just like cars) as long as they can be bought and sold just the same.

Ok. Glad you made that clear.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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If I sell you a vehicle, the government doesn't get involved until/unless you take it on public roads. Why the difference?

Oh? So what you're saying is that you're for registration, taxing and licensing of guns and owners (just like cars) as long as they can be bought and sold just the same.

No, that wasn't what I mean, but I'm exceedingly *UN*surprised you went there, so let's run with that.

Guns treated just like cars? Ok.

That means any 16 year old proving a hardship and all 17 year olds that can pass a (VERY) simple rules and operations test would be able to carry a gun NATIONWIDE, no questions asked. Oh, yeah - that license will cost around $25.

No background checks for that, btw - after all, there's no background checks when you get a driver's license.

It means that carrying a gun on the street without the license is a $100 ticket that comes off their record in 3 years.

That means that I can buy ANY type of weapon that I want to and modify it however I want to with NO paperwork required, as long as I keep it on my private property. Full auto or .50-cal on the backyard range? All legal.

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Ok. Glad you made that clear.

You're welcome - but next time you really SHOULD read my whole post - you sorta missed the whole "until/unless you take it on public roads" thing.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo?

If the choice is status quo, or an expensive new program that will makes things worse for citizens while doing nothing about criminal behavior, yep, you bet.

[Zee 0]

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According to the NIJ, 56% of arrested armed criminals said they got their guns from person-to-person sales. Looks like a big loophole to me.

Really? Wow! All this time I thought they got them from vending machines....

Action©Sports

[kallend 2,102]

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LEGAL person to person sales are NOT a 'loophole'.

Technically, that is correct.
From the "legal" perspective.
The issue is abuse of that legality.

According to the NIJ, 56% of arrested armed criminals said they got their guns from person-to-person sales. Looks like a big loophole to me.

And straw purchase.

That too. Apparently some gun shops blatantly look the other way for straw purchases. ATF stings have caught a number of them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,102]

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Why should it BE addressed? Name *one* other thing that the mere sale of (*SALE*, not use of in public)

I'm a little confused, Mike.
Are you saying guns sold aren't used in public?

No, re-read what I said. Why does the government need to APPROVE a legal property transaction between two private citizens?

If I sell you a vehicle, the government doesn't get involved until/unless you take it on public roads. Why the difference?

Try buying or selling an airplane if you want to see government involvement.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Why should it BE addressed? Name *one* other thing that the mere sale of (*SALE*, not use of in public)

I'm a little confused, Mike.
Are you saying guns sold aren't used in public?

No, re-read what I said. Why does the government need to APPROVE a legal property transaction between two private citizens?

If I sell you a vehicle, the government doesn't get involved until/unless you take it on public roads. Why the difference?

Try buying or selling an airplane if you want to see government involvement.

So, if you sell your Mooney to billvon, the gov't has to approve bill before he can buy it? Interesting - I wasn't aware of that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BIGUN 1,395]

Mike,

If you'll go back and re-read MY threads, I never said anything about Government Approval, only registration.

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So, if you sell your Mooney to billvon, the gov't has to approve bill before he can buy it? Interesting - I wasn't aware of that.

Actually, Bill was pre-approved by the government before the purchase up to and including a physical in which the results were reported to the FAA if anything was outta whack (Blood Pressure Meds, etc.) not to mention licensure.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[rushmc 23]

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Mike,

If you'll go back and re-read MY threads, I never said anything about Government Approval, only registration.

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So, if you sell your Mooney to billvon, the gov't has to approve bill before he can buy it? Interesting - I wasn't aware of that.

Actually, Bill was pre-approved by the government before the purchase up to and including a physical in which the results were reported to the FAA if anything was outta whack (Blood Pressure Meds, etc.) not to mention licensure.

So, in Iowa I am pre approved to purchase guns once the state clears me (I file to get a permit to purchase here yearly) and gives me my permit to purchase. They do not however, find out what I purchase or from whom. If purchase is made from an FFL they (the FFL dealer) keep the paperwork which the state can inspect but does not have a right to said paper work.

The state also asks (but I am not sure they require) that I check to see if someone I am selling a handgun to has said permit to purchase, but I do not need to keep any paper work. And that is ok becuause the state has already approved this person to buy a handgun.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 843]

Cooling off period?
Licensed dealers only?
Mental history checks?
Conceal carry permit?
Differing laws depending on the state?
Limits on the number of people "loaded" into the aircraft?
Recording of ALL fuels purchased?
Limits on types of aircraft?

[mnealtx 0]

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Mike,

If you'll go back and re-read MY threads, I never said anything about Government Approval, only registration.

I know that, Keith - however, you spoke of all sales being registered, then asked the prior poster what solution he had for private sales. My question is, what OTHER items (besides planes, evidently) have to have government intervention in the sale (registration), and why do we need government intervention IN those sales at all?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706