marks 0 #51 October 20, 2005 QuoteI'd go with the PD143. As you mentioned, it's larger than the MR150, has good resale value, and is much more forgiving. get the pd 143, it will save your ass and land you nicely.. my p.d. reserve is loaded at 1.7 and opens and swoops like a dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #52 October 20, 2005 Quote QuoteYes, the micro-raven is older than the PD airfoil, and designed to be flown a lower W/L. Yes, the micro-raven is known for having a short flare range with a sudden stall. However, any problems with the raven I have ever heard of were VERY small reserves (120 range) and much more highly loaded then 1.25. My experiences aren't that high of a wing-loading but they are small canopies. I've got a Microraven 120 in one of my rigs and it lands fine if I front-riser it in. Otherwise it has no flare. I used a dash-m 109 once (body weight 130) and it stalled out on me above my ears. I sold it immediately and replaced it with a Tempo 120. I went out of my way to put the Tempo 120 in my CRW rig. It has 8 jumps on it now and still lands quite nice. Its definitely my favorite reserve. I like PD reserves as well, but I don't have any problems with Tempos. In my experience they land quite well. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #53 October 21, 2005 I'm not going to read the whole thread but have skimmed it well enough to read... gear fear... Raven horrors... No matter what parachute you find yourself under, do a canopy control check. If you find yourself under a reserve, remember it's not fragile, it's just a parachute. So do the checks. That includes turning both directions and performing test flares. When you perform the test flares... remember where the flare point is. When people stall the Raven series canopy, it's simply because they get near the ground and cram on the brakes and it folds up. Don't do that. Test flare it and flare the canopy how it wants to be flared. I've landed a 109, a 120, and a 135 and have stalled none of them because I did a control check. You can too. I still prefer a PD of similar size to the Micro Raven due to the flight and flaring characteristics but the Micro Raven will land you fine if you ask it too. (not verbally either) Good luck!My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #54 October 21, 2005 QuoteSlightlyheavily overloaded Raven Micro's are known to stall "instantly" when you pull brakes down too far. And it seems to be more prevalent with smaller sizes. In my experience, there are no real performance issues with a 150 Dash M at the 1.25 loading. I wouldn't jump one much over 1.3. The thing to remeber with the Dash M series, is that they can be landed sucessfully at higher loadings but most people are not familiar with how an F111 seven cell flys and are too excited when riding it to realize that the full range of control is there, it's just "compressed" into the top of the control range. One could alter that by lengthing control lines but then you'd have a control range that hade a "dead" spot in the top of the range. If planning to load higher, select a more modern design, like the RMax, Smart, or PDR. Re: your cutaway, if you just want to test the canopy, it would be far easier to just pack it as a main in another rig.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packerboy 3 #55 October 21, 2005 Mark: If there is a tersh set up at the DZ, I will more than likely be doing an intentional on my Micro-Raven 150 next weekend, so you will be able to see one in action. I'm a little lighter (150 with gear on), so it may not answer your concerns with as much detail as you're looking for. Trev -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #56 October 21, 2005 Hello Trevor, Thanks for letting me know. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to make it this weekend -- a small cold and also an upcoming move between two apartments. But if you do the jump, let me know your results. I am sure it will land fine at your wingloadings (not as likely to suddenly collapse during the middle of a flare) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DBCOOPER 5 #57 October 21, 2005 QuoteMy dropzone has PD demos - I'll probably ask for a PD143R to test-jump sometime next spring. Skydiving season is now almost over in Canada. Get one and bring it to CSS for Thanksgiving.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #58 October 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy dropzone has PD demos - I'll probably ask for a PD143R to test-jump sometime next spring. Skydiving season is now almost over in Canada. Get one and bring it to CSS for Thanksgiving.I'm not 100% sure I can make the CSS roadtrip, my home dropzone is planning that CSS roadtrip, but I already took a skydiving vacation to Florida (Deaf World Record) just a few days ago. So it's gonna be a bit hard to get the funds and days off, but I haven't written it off just yet - just a matter of finding someone who's willing to drive down on a Friday and driving back home on a Monday, and this may just push me over the edge to going to CSS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DBCOOPER 5 #59 October 21, 2005 You shoud go just for the deep fried turkeyReplying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michael_Riber 0 #60 August 24, 2014 Interesting read. I'm sitting here nine years later having exactly the same concerns. I recently bought a used container with a Raven 150 DOM 92 as my first rig. I hadn't done my home work and later learned that there could be an issue landing the Raven, unless I practiced its special flight characteristics before-hand. After due consideration I decided to have it replaced with an Optimum-160. Better safe than sorry. I jump to have fun and being uncomfortable about my abilities to land my reserve is not my kind of fun. Next time PD comes to demo their canopies on a DZ near my location I will take a few test jumps in the Optimum-160. Until then I will simply rely on what others have said about it, and jump it without second thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #61 August 24, 2014 How much do you weigh out-the-door? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #62 August 24, 2014 I've seen two broken back and one broken ankle with Micro Raven 120 or smaller I think. It wasn't the Dash M series. I laughed at the maximum suspended weight per placard. It was less than 130 lbs I believe. All of them were flown by the canopy pilot themselves weighed much more than that, not including the weight of the harness and other stuff.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theplummeter 15 #63 August 24, 2014 I've ridden two Micro Raven 150 canopies, both manufactured in 2001 and loaded at 1.4. To describe the flare as strong would be a lie, but I managed to stand both of them up even at high altitude and temperature after a couple practice flares. Figure out the point where a stall starts and quickly flare to that point close to the ground. They really didn't seem too bad to me, especially after a cranky main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gowlerk 2,216 #64 August 24, 2014 theplummeterI've ridden two Micro Raven 150 canopies, both manufactured in 2001 and loaded at 1.4. To describe the flare as strong would be a lie, but I managed to stand both of them up even at high altitude and temperature after a couple practice flares. Figure out the point where a stall starts and quickly flare to that point close to the ground. They really didn't seem too bad to me, especially after a cranky main. This may work. But it's really easy to mess it up and hurt yourself with this kind of loading on this kind of canopy. On a reserve ride there is no guarantee that altitude will be available for practice flares. It would be far better to load the dice in your favor, rather than against you.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #65 August 25, 2014 Like I said, Non Dash M series Micro Raven smaller than 120 sized. Your Micro Raven is in the different category.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #66 August 25, 2014 Agreed The Micro Raven 109 Dash M was only made during the last batch of Raven reserve production, during the mid-1990s. Aerodynamically, they were pretty much the same as earlier Ravens. They had the same airfoil section and line trim as Super Raven -D. The major difference on the Raven Dash M was structural with span-wise bottom skins and no bridle attachment. Why anyone would want to load any Raven more than 1 pound per square foot baffles me?????????????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,009 #67 August 25, 2014 >Why anyone would want to load any Raven more than 1 pound per square foot baffles me? Because you can buy them secondhand for very, very cheap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #68 August 26, 2014 People aren't informed about it that is why. I've seen some people who doesn't even know their color of the reserve. Jumpers should know their gear, and what is the parameter. I've seen three people not walking away from the micro-raven landings. Ever since then I try to post much about it on forum when the topic pops out so that others are informed and they don't make the same mistake. It is sad to see someone chop from a simple line-twist and they end up in ambulance ride. I'm not bashing micro-ravens. I'm pretty sure they work fine when used properly. Just want to say that they don't fly like the newer reserve do.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GobbleGobble 0 #69 August 26, 2014 stayhighPeople aren't informed about it that is why. I've seen some people who doesn't even know their color of the reserve. Jumpers should know their gear, and what is the parameter. I've seen three people not walking away from the micro-raven landings. Ever since then I try to post much about it on forum when the topic pops out so that others are informed and they don't make the same mistake. It is sad to see someone chop from a simple line-twist and they end up in ambulance ride. I'm not bashing micro-ravens. I'm pretty sure they work fine when used properly. Just want to say that they don't fly like the newer reserve do. PDRs don't fly or flare brilliantly either. Most folks don't have much if any time on a 7 cell. Combine that with being amped up after a cut away and I think you already set the stage for a lot of injuries. I have three rides on a Micro Raven. I certainly like the PDR in my other rig, but it's not a Swift by any means... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #70 August 26, 2014 Sad, but true! Young skydivers are not interested in listening to us grumpy old farts talk about the limitations of cheap gear. For years, I railed against the stupidity of fat white men jumping Micro Ravens. Sadly no one listened until one of the (medium-sized) local lads stalled his Micro Raven into the hospital. He broke a bunch of bones and needed many months to recover. His buddies needed to help him wipe his ass for a month before they stopped buying Micro Ravens. Only then did the price of used Ravens descend faster than a fat man hanging under a Micro Raven! By then Precision had already been sewing R-Max reserves for a few years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #71 August 26, 2014 What is crazy is that rigger that continues to repack these Micros. I feel that these riggers should inform all of their customer that the toggle range is really, really, fucking short on the Mircos. The riggers need to tell them to fly these canopies correctly or suffer the consequences. I still see them selling it over dz.com for over 400 bucks. WTF? Micro Raven brand new back in 1990's probably cost less than 700 bucks. Why are they still 400 bucks? Who the fuck are these assholes selling it to newbies that doesn't know better. Burn these canopy, make em un-airworthy. Now I'm officially bashing Micro Ravens. Sorry George Gallaway but alot of your canopy sucks compare to the other brand. I've jumped Precision Tandems to Xaos but I liked none of them. But openings are fucking awesome tho. Nice opening, mushy canopies are what they are.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skez 0 #72 August 26, 2014 Got a solution anyone who's scared to jumps micro ravens just send it to me....ill use itFTMC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #73 August 26, 2014 You really believe it's a rigger's responsibility to tell grown-ass men to NOT jump approved/airworthy/TSO'd reserves? You really believe a rigger should NOT pack that same airworty/TSO'd reserve just because some jackass never took the time to test jump his reserve type or to at least bother to do a couple of test flares prior to landing his reserve? I've seen plenty of people stall small Ravens and Micro Ravens due to their short toggle stroke, but I'm not about to blame the reserve (or the rigger). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skez 0 #74 August 26, 2014 SkymonkeyONEYou really believe it's a rigger's responsibility to tell grown-ass men to NOT jump approved/airworthy/TSO'd reserves? You really believe a rigger should NOT pack that same airworty/TSO'd reserve just because some jackass never took the time to test jump his reserve type or to at least bother to do a couple of test flares prior to landing his reserve? I've seen plenty of people stall small Ravens and Micro Ravens due to their short toggle stroke, but I'm not about to blame the reserve (or the rigger). Alot of people get hurt and cant take responsibility on there own so its alot easier to blame the gear when they most likely would have got hurt on any tiny f111 7 cell coz it didnt behave the same as there mainFTMC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,009 #75 August 26, 2014 >PDRs don't fly or flare brilliantly either. True, although they flare WAY better than Micro Ravens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
hookitt 1 #53 October 21, 2005 I'm not going to read the whole thread but have skimmed it well enough to read... gear fear... Raven horrors... No matter what parachute you find yourself under, do a canopy control check. If you find yourself under a reserve, remember it's not fragile, it's just a parachute. So do the checks. That includes turning both directions and performing test flares. When you perform the test flares... remember where the flare point is. When people stall the Raven series canopy, it's simply because they get near the ground and cram on the brakes and it folds up. Don't do that. Test flare it and flare the canopy how it wants to be flared. I've landed a 109, a 120, and a 135 and have stalled none of them because I did a control check. You can too. I still prefer a PD of similar size to the Micro Raven due to the flight and flaring characteristics but the Micro Raven will land you fine if you ask it too. (not verbally either) Good luck!My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #54 October 21, 2005 QuoteSlightlyheavily overloaded Raven Micro's are known to stall "instantly" when you pull brakes down too far. And it seems to be more prevalent with smaller sizes. In my experience, there are no real performance issues with a 150 Dash M at the 1.25 loading. I wouldn't jump one much over 1.3. The thing to remeber with the Dash M series, is that they can be landed sucessfully at higher loadings but most people are not familiar with how an F111 seven cell flys and are too excited when riding it to realize that the full range of control is there, it's just "compressed" into the top of the control range. One could alter that by lengthing control lines but then you'd have a control range that hade a "dead" spot in the top of the range. If planning to load higher, select a more modern design, like the RMax, Smart, or PDR. Re: your cutaway, if you just want to test the canopy, it would be far easier to just pack it as a main in another rig.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #55 October 21, 2005 Mark: If there is a tersh set up at the DZ, I will more than likely be doing an intentional on my Micro-Raven 150 next weekend, so you will be able to see one in action. I'm a little lighter (150 with gear on), so it may not answer your concerns with as much detail as you're looking for. Trev -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #56 October 21, 2005 Hello Trevor, Thanks for letting me know. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to make it this weekend -- a small cold and also an upcoming move between two apartments. But if you do the jump, let me know your results. I am sure it will land fine at your wingloadings (not as likely to suddenly collapse during the middle of a flare) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 5 #57 October 21, 2005 QuoteMy dropzone has PD demos - I'll probably ask for a PD143R to test-jump sometime next spring. Skydiving season is now almost over in Canada. Get one and bring it to CSS for Thanksgiving.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #58 October 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy dropzone has PD demos - I'll probably ask for a PD143R to test-jump sometime next spring. Skydiving season is now almost over in Canada. Get one and bring it to CSS for Thanksgiving.I'm not 100% sure I can make the CSS roadtrip, my home dropzone is planning that CSS roadtrip, but I already took a skydiving vacation to Florida (Deaf World Record) just a few days ago. So it's gonna be a bit hard to get the funds and days off, but I haven't written it off just yet - just a matter of finding someone who's willing to drive down on a Friday and driving back home on a Monday, and this may just push me over the edge to going to CSS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 5 #59 October 21, 2005 You shoud go just for the deep fried turkeyReplying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael_Riber 0 #60 August 24, 2014 Interesting read. I'm sitting here nine years later having exactly the same concerns. I recently bought a used container with a Raven 150 DOM 92 as my first rig. I hadn't done my home work and later learned that there could be an issue landing the Raven, unless I practiced its special flight characteristics before-hand. After due consideration I decided to have it replaced with an Optimum-160. Better safe than sorry. I jump to have fun and being uncomfortable about my abilities to land my reserve is not my kind of fun. Next time PD comes to demo their canopies on a DZ near my location I will take a few test jumps in the Optimum-160. Until then I will simply rely on what others have said about it, and jump it without second thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #61 August 24, 2014 How much do you weigh out-the-door? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #62 August 24, 2014 I've seen two broken back and one broken ankle with Micro Raven 120 or smaller I think. It wasn't the Dash M series. I laughed at the maximum suspended weight per placard. It was less than 130 lbs I believe. All of them were flown by the canopy pilot themselves weighed much more than that, not including the weight of the harness and other stuff.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theplummeter 15 #63 August 24, 2014 I've ridden two Micro Raven 150 canopies, both manufactured in 2001 and loaded at 1.4. To describe the flare as strong would be a lie, but I managed to stand both of them up even at high altitude and temperature after a couple practice flares. Figure out the point where a stall starts and quickly flare to that point close to the ground. They really didn't seem too bad to me, especially after a cranky main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,216 #64 August 24, 2014 theplummeterI've ridden two Micro Raven 150 canopies, both manufactured in 2001 and loaded at 1.4. To describe the flare as strong would be a lie, but I managed to stand both of them up even at high altitude and temperature after a couple practice flares. Figure out the point where a stall starts and quickly flare to that point close to the ground. They really didn't seem too bad to me, especially after a cranky main. This may work. But it's really easy to mess it up and hurt yourself with this kind of loading on this kind of canopy. On a reserve ride there is no guarantee that altitude will be available for practice flares. It would be far better to load the dice in your favor, rather than against you.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #65 August 25, 2014 Like I said, Non Dash M series Micro Raven smaller than 120 sized. Your Micro Raven is in the different category.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #66 August 25, 2014 Agreed The Micro Raven 109 Dash M was only made during the last batch of Raven reserve production, during the mid-1990s. Aerodynamically, they were pretty much the same as earlier Ravens. They had the same airfoil section and line trim as Super Raven -D. The major difference on the Raven Dash M was structural with span-wise bottom skins and no bridle attachment. Why anyone would want to load any Raven more than 1 pound per square foot baffles me?????????????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #67 August 25, 2014 >Why anyone would want to load any Raven more than 1 pound per square foot baffles me? Because you can buy them secondhand for very, very cheap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #68 August 26, 2014 People aren't informed about it that is why. I've seen some people who doesn't even know their color of the reserve. Jumpers should know their gear, and what is the parameter. I've seen three people not walking away from the micro-raven landings. Ever since then I try to post much about it on forum when the topic pops out so that others are informed and they don't make the same mistake. It is sad to see someone chop from a simple line-twist and they end up in ambulance ride. I'm not bashing micro-ravens. I'm pretty sure they work fine when used properly. Just want to say that they don't fly like the newer reserve do.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GobbleGobble 0 #69 August 26, 2014 stayhighPeople aren't informed about it that is why. I've seen some people who doesn't even know their color of the reserve. Jumpers should know their gear, and what is the parameter. I've seen three people not walking away from the micro-raven landings. Ever since then I try to post much about it on forum when the topic pops out so that others are informed and they don't make the same mistake. It is sad to see someone chop from a simple line-twist and they end up in ambulance ride. I'm not bashing micro-ravens. I'm pretty sure they work fine when used properly. Just want to say that they don't fly like the newer reserve do. PDRs don't fly or flare brilliantly either. Most folks don't have much if any time on a 7 cell. Combine that with being amped up after a cut away and I think you already set the stage for a lot of injuries. I have three rides on a Micro Raven. I certainly like the PDR in my other rig, but it's not a Swift by any means... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #70 August 26, 2014 Sad, but true! Young skydivers are not interested in listening to us grumpy old farts talk about the limitations of cheap gear. For years, I railed against the stupidity of fat white men jumping Micro Ravens. Sadly no one listened until one of the (medium-sized) local lads stalled his Micro Raven into the hospital. He broke a bunch of bones and needed many months to recover. His buddies needed to help him wipe his ass for a month before they stopped buying Micro Ravens. Only then did the price of used Ravens descend faster than a fat man hanging under a Micro Raven! By then Precision had already been sewing R-Max reserves for a few years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #71 August 26, 2014 What is crazy is that rigger that continues to repack these Micros. I feel that these riggers should inform all of their customer that the toggle range is really, really, fucking short on the Mircos. The riggers need to tell them to fly these canopies correctly or suffer the consequences. I still see them selling it over dz.com for over 400 bucks. WTF? Micro Raven brand new back in 1990's probably cost less than 700 bucks. Why are they still 400 bucks? Who the fuck are these assholes selling it to newbies that doesn't know better. Burn these canopy, make em un-airworthy. Now I'm officially bashing Micro Ravens. Sorry George Gallaway but alot of your canopy sucks compare to the other brand. I've jumped Precision Tandems to Xaos but I liked none of them. But openings are fucking awesome tho. Nice opening, mushy canopies are what they are.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skez 0 #72 August 26, 2014 Got a solution anyone who's scared to jumps micro ravens just send it to me....ill use itFTMC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #73 August 26, 2014 You really believe it's a rigger's responsibility to tell grown-ass men to NOT jump approved/airworthy/TSO'd reserves? You really believe a rigger should NOT pack that same airworty/TSO'd reserve just because some jackass never took the time to test jump his reserve type or to at least bother to do a couple of test flares prior to landing his reserve? I've seen plenty of people stall small Ravens and Micro Ravens due to their short toggle stroke, but I'm not about to blame the reserve (or the rigger). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skez 0 #74 August 26, 2014 SkymonkeyONEYou really believe it's a rigger's responsibility to tell grown-ass men to NOT jump approved/airworthy/TSO'd reserves? You really believe a rigger should NOT pack that same airworty/TSO'd reserve just because some jackass never took the time to test jump his reserve type or to at least bother to do a couple of test flares prior to landing his reserve? I've seen plenty of people stall small Ravens and Micro Ravens due to their short toggle stroke, but I'm not about to blame the reserve (or the rigger). Alot of people get hurt and cant take responsibility on there own so its alot easier to blame the gear when they most likely would have got hurt on any tiny f111 7 cell coz it didnt behave the same as there mainFTMC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #75 August 26, 2014 >PDRs don't fly or flare brilliantly either. True, although they flare WAY better than Micro Ravens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
